It seems as though those of us in NSW may be forced off "Unleaded" to steer us onto E10 petrol.
I've been told by several mechanics who don't have any business in selling fuel that E10 does damage engines, even those designed to take it!

What's the feeling out there?

Im feeling a tad hung over

If it damages engines would it really be used in such a widespead manner?
It used to maybe sometimes start corrosion (I guess cos ethanol absorbs some water...?) but all ethanol-containing fuel has to have a corroison inhibitor in it now.
I like it as it is giving me premium octane rating at 2c/L cheaper

But it would be dumb to get rid or regular unleaded as then those who can't use E10 have to use premium at higher cost. And can it be used in mowers, chainsaws etc...?

Totally agree it would be dumb to totally get rid of unleaded.
If this goes ahead it would force me to use 95 because my car's Manuel and even at the filler it warns me not to use ethanol.

Forcing me on to 95 would cost me an extra 13c / litre, not impressed!
I done the test on 95 in this car and it gets exactly the same mileage as unleaded.
I also gave E10 a go in the same car and I had issues while it was in the tank.
I will never use E10 again in that car.

I've often heard it said don't use E10 on mowers etc.
So they will all need 95 as well.

It is strange that a Liberal a Government would do this, as the Libs always say they leave it to the market to decide on these matters.

After the research I did into sealing systems with Biodiesel for work I wouldn't be putting that crap anywhere near a vehicle of mine.

Bio fuels themselves are not to much of a problem straight from the factory.

The problems with Bio fuels is not so much water causing corrosion but the water leading to bacteriological breakdown of the bio components creating a chemical called FAME (fatty acid methyl ester), this sh1t is f'ken aggressive, it dissolves what would be normally chemically resistant rubber components. It will also descale diesel fuel lines to such and extent on older vehicles to block up filters.

Fortunately E10 is only 10% bio fuel so the possibility is a lot less, but there still can be a potential issue with fuels which have been stored for a long time as there is more water exposure.

I would never use e10 unless the manufacturer specifies it.

Never use it in outboards due to the water issues.

And if the manufacturers specifies it, E10
Would you still use it?

Mates of mine that are mechanics say NO.

We are talking E10 right, not E85 or E100 or anything ?


I recall the same thing was said about unleaded when it was introduced 30 odd years ago.

Plenty of top notch experts said you couldn't run it in engines, even those with hardened seats would suffer, it was the devils work, it is all a conspiracy etc. etc. Lead Replacement was sold to appease those who complained and which has survived the test of time ? Where can you buy LRP nowadays ? And did the end of leaded petrol ruin your life and all your cars ?

I bet E10 will be the same. So I get 5K km less from my 500K km engine using E10 than unleaded. Big deal ? especially when I got 100K km more from my 2010 engine using unleaded than I did from my 1980 engine using leaded.


Are the people who are saying they won't use E10 the same people who are outraged in the many threads about climate change saying we all need to do more ?

I wanna know why the mechanics say no. If they know what they are talking about, they will say why....

I can perceive that what elmo is saying might be a slightly different matter.

Not sure what engines he is talking about but if it is a $2M haul truck engine or $5M excavator engine that runs 420 hours a month and 20 hours downtime is the difference between making a profit and making a loss then I can see it has different implications than putting E10 in your $6k Honda Jazz and using it to drive 5km to work through the city each day because you are too lazy to cycle/walk/take the bus.

Running 100% biodiesel commercially and E10 domestically probably have their differences.

I have a 2010 Pug that says E10 OK in the owners manual but mechanic says use premium since it blocks fuel lines etc.

would like to know more, is it used in Europe? maybe our quality of E10 is worse

The diesel issue was on a dirty great ferry so yes the $ for the motors was huge I got involved when the fuel line gaskets dissolved 3" fuel lines aaren't good when they spring leaks.

Regarding Petrol, FAME, can occur in E10 (10% ethanol) fuel but because the bio component is only 10% then the potential is far less.

Motors which have been manufactured to handle E10 have different materials built in, Europe has been using these fuels for years with higher ethanol content.

The issues with the fuels come from the age of the fuel, the newer the fuel(time between manufacture and use) the lower chance of moisture contamination and thus FAME's to developing.

My understanding is that there are two problems with E10. One is the water content causing corrosion in some engines. The other is that it is not as efficient a fuel so the money you save is offset by using more fuel. I keep records of my fuel consumption and did not notice any significant difference between E10 and unleaded.

What's this about being " in NSW may be forced off "Unleaded" to steer us onto E10 petrol."? E10 is a little cheaper than unleaded. It's not as easily available as unleaded. Why don't you just buy unleaded?

I also have a philosophical problem with biofuels. They're hardly a green option by the time you factor in the cost of fertilisers, water and other production costs and fertile land devoted to growing them.

While we're on the subject, if you want to save fuel, take your roof racks off. Just have the racks and a couple of boards increases fuel use by 10%. Putting a bike on the roof increases fuel use by 20-30%. Having a bike on a tow bar mounted rack increases fuel consumption by barely 5%.

I've yet to meet an automotive mechanic that is also a qualified engineer, researcher and statistician. 99.9% of mechanics are probably offering nothing more than an opinion, an informed opinion but an opinion none the less.

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Gorgo said..
My understanding is that there are two problems with E10. One is the water content causing corrosion in some engines. The other is that it is not as efficient a fuel so the money you save is offset by using more fuel. I keep records of my fuel consumption and did not notice any significant difference between E10 and unleaded.

No.1 is no longer relevant as they add corrosion inhibitor.

No.2 - tests show an increase in fuel use about the same as the cost savings - ie: so for the end user it has no benefit or loss.
So now the only argument we are left with is sustainability, cleanliness etc.

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Carantoc said..

Are the people who are saying they won't use E10 the same people who are outraged in the many threads about climate change saying we all need to do more ?

Carantoc
Please explain the relevance?

Just to clear another thing up some may have not noticed in my second post.
My Manuel states "do not use fuel containing ethanol".
Clearly there is a reason why they would state this.
I recently tried E10 to see how it would go.
It's seems to me my Manuel's statements are still relevant.
The car normally never misses a beat on Unleaded but on E10 it "missed" and generally performed poorly.

In NSW most of the major petrol stations, those controlled by Wooly's and Coles do not offer "Unleaded" petrol.
They only have E10, 95 and 97.

It's the smaller chains or privately owned garages that have the "Unleaded" option.
This is where it will make a difference.
It seems the NSW state government is clearly trying to force all garages off the "Unleaded" option.
So all garages must operate like the major chains do.

Re mechanics not being engineers.
Engineers design cars.
Mechanics fix cars.
Who finds out first when a problem occurs?

One mechanic I know clearly thinks E10 is a major issue and the first question he asks all of his customers is "what fuel do you use".
He claims there is a very disproportionate number say they use E10.
He goes on and on about what it does to the engine.
He is not the only one.
I have never heard a mechanic saying anything other than it's crap fuel and that they would never use the stuff.

Just had a quick look and unless I have missed something there should be no FAME in E10. It is ethanol so cannot make fatty esters which come from the oils used in the manufacture of Biodiesel. Different stuff.
The solvent properties of the ethanol dissolving residues can be an issue.
Methanol impurities can cause corrosion as can water content.
Also Copper (from www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/f83ff2dc-87a7-4cf9-ab24-6c25f2713f9e/files/international-feul-quality-standards.pdf)
The committee’s view is that copper is a very active catalyst for low temperature oxidation of hydrocarbons.
Experimental work has shown that copper concentrations higher than 0.012 mg/kg in commercial gasolines
can significantly increase the rate of gum formation.

And all this relies on you getting what it says on the tin!

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Knottedup said..

Carantoc said..

Are the people who are saying they won't use E10 the same people who are outraged in the many threads about climate change saying we all need to do more ?

Carantoc
Please explain the relevance?

Just to clear another thing up some may have not noticed in my second post.
My Manuel states "do not use fuel containing ethanol".
Clearly there is a reason why they would state this.
I recently tried E10 to see how it would go.
It's seems to me my Manuel's statements are still relevant.
The car normally never misses a beat on Unleaded but on E10 it "missed" and generally performed poorly.

In NSW most of the major petrol stations, those controlled by Wooly's and Coles do not offer "Unleaded" petrol.
They only have E10, 95 and 97.

It's the smaller chains or privately owned garages that have the "Unleaded" option.
This is where it will make a difference.
It seems the NSW state government is clearly trying to force all garages off the "Unleaded" option.
So all garages must operate like the major chains do.

Re mechanics not being engineers.
Engineers design cars.
Mechanics fix cars.
Who finds out first when a problem occurs?

One mechanic I know clearly thinks E10 is a major issue and the first question he asks all of his customers is "what fuel do you use".
He claims there is a very disproportionate number say they use E10.
He goes on and on about what it does to the engine.
He is not the only one.
I have never heard a mechanic saying anything other than it's crap fuel and that they would never use the stuff.

So your manual says not to use E10, which you used anyway and when you car played up you blame the fuel? Sounds more like operator error to me?

The manual in my car says not to use leaded fuel or fuel with metal additives, I'm not about to add leaded fuel to my car to prove it doesn't run well. The manual in my 4WD says to use diesel fuel, I'm all not about to put unleaded or leaded in there to prove it doesn't run well either. Motors and emission control systems are designed to run on a specific fuel to meet performance and emission targets (except Volkswagen diesels of course) and using something else is all but guaranteed to affect performance, emissions and/or damage your car.

Apart from diesel and LPG all servo's offer unleaded. What exactly do you thing E10, R92, R95 and R97 is? leaded fuel is no longer available so they don't need to market the difference between unleaded and leaded fuel like they did 20 years ago. Theres no conspiracy between the major chains and and the small independents over leaded verses unleaded fuel. More likely you'll get something dodgy from the independents as some have been known to shandy their fuel deliveries with ethanol and not tell the customer so they can extract every cent they can out of their fuel revenue.

Mechanics fix cars but fixing cars doesn't make them an expert on what caused the problem, especially with something as subtle as long term fuel 'contamination'. One mechanic that clearly has an issue with E10 doesn't mean he's right. There's someone in the kite forum that clearly has an issue with safety leashes but that doesn't make him right either.

Dear Chris6791
I guess it would help if you read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote!

Did I ever mention leaded petrol?

As I said before in NSW approximately 50% of service stations DON'T offer unleaded (92).
I am not stating what happens in WA.
This topic is about what is likely to happen in NSW.

Yes slap me on the wrist for actually E10.
It was an experiment mate, to see as I said, what would happen.
And no I didn't blamed fuel, I wished to see what happened, if you can get the distinction?

Re what I said about mechanics.
As I said all I speak to say the same, not just one!!

Ethanol based fuels in boats is a rather real issue. The big problem for my understanding is the fuel and ethanol seperate over time and will not re mix. It then sinks to the bottom of the tank and you engine if sitting around for over 4 to 5 weeks could get a straight shot of ethanol to the motor. Causing catastrophic issues. Also ethanol is very corrosive and boats need to have fuel tanks and fuel lines replaced to handle the ethanol based fuel also.

Its my understanding that in QLD all fuel now has ethanol in them, the only place you can buy ethanol free fuel is on the water as a "Marine" mix..

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Knottedup said..
Dear Chris6791
I guess it would help if you read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote!

Did I ever mention leaded petrol?

As I said before in NSW approximately 50% of service stations DON'T offer unleaded (92).
I am not stating what happens in WA.
This topic is about what is likely to happen in NSW.

Yes slap me on the wrist for actually E10.
It was an experiment mate, to see as I said, what would happen.
And no I didn't blamed fuel, I wished to see what happened, if you can get the distinction?

Re what I said about mechanics.
As I said all I speak to say the same, not just one!!

"In NSW most of the major petrol stations, those controlled by Wooly's and Coles do not offer "Unleaded" petrol. They only have E10, 95 and 97."

This is what you wrote, all of these are unleaded fuels. 92 is also an unleaded fuel, anything with the E reference is unleaded with a specific % of ethanol added.

www.mynrma.com.au/membership/my-nrma-app

The use of E10 against the recommendation of the manufacturer subsequently leading to a loss of performance can't be blamed on the ethanol component. If your manual approved the use of E10 and you had damage as a result that would be different. Sure it was an experiment but in the context of this thread you're blaming the ethanol for the reduced performance and knocking.

Yes Chris
I think it is possible that everyone but you got what I was saying when I put "Unleaded".
Sorry mate I thought it would be obvious in the context it was Standard Unleaded.
Then to put the " " around it, it may have given you the clue.
So I'm sorry you didn't understand.

BTW you did miss a real mistake, I put 97 it should have been 98.

Re the experiment.
I'm also sorry you still don't understand my explanation that I didn't "blame" E10.
In fact I suspected this would be the case as I unlike many others read my manual.
Anyhow I'll leave it to others to think what they will on this explanation.

So my car still goes very well on Unleaded 92 - Standard "Unleaded", so NO harm done
after the experiment.
I only did it once, never again!
We now all know my car will not go well on E10.
Even though I have been told by some of the learned that if your car goes well on Unleaded 92
then it will be fine on E10.
Which BTW was the seed for my experiment.

So as I said before if the NSW government plan goes ahead I will need to go up a grade of fuel
to Unleaded 95 as the Unleaded 92 option will be taken away from me.

This will cost me about 13c a litre more to run my car with no extra mileage added.
Fair?

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Knottedup said..

So as I said before if the NSW government plan goes ahead I will need to go up a grade of fuel
to Unleaded 95 as the Unleaded 92 option will be taken away from me.

This will cost me about 13c a litre more to run my car with no extra mileage added.
Fair?

well......with the extra excises, levies and taxes, your govt. will appreciate it.


stephen

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smicko said...

Qué?

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jbshack said..
Ethanol based fuels in boats is a rather real issue. The big problem for my understanding is the fuel and ethanol seperate over time and will not re mix. It then sinks to the bottom of the tank and you engine if sitting around for over 4 to 5 weeks could get a straight shot of ethanol to the motor. Causing catastrophic issues. Also ethanol is very corrosive and boats need to have fuel tanks and fuel lines replaced to handle the ethanol based fuel also.

Its my understanding that in QLD all fuel now has ethanol in them, the only place you can buy ethanol free fuel is on the water as a "Marine" mix..

I would say maybe a water issue. I would not use any ethanol containing fuel in a marine application for sure. I doubt the separation issue, as ethanol and petrol are pretty damn miscible.

Then, I can't see too many people starting the motor without driving to the water or similar (= lots of stirring the fuel) ...... so that argument seems about as believable as two stroke fuel separates and the motor gets a shot of 100% oil.....


I know my 4 stroke mower says to only use 91 octane standard unleaded, makes sense as they are pretty low compression engines, smaller outboards probably the same.
In short, think any removal of normal 91RON unleaded is dumb dumb

Before the advent of E10 and the like, people (well me at least) used to add metho to petrol every now and then to dissolve any water that was in the fuel system. The idea was that it would mix with the water and be flushed through the system.

Was this misinformation? I never had a problem with it.

Yes I also did the same and maybe it worked, who knows?

But there are a couple of differences.
1. It was Metho not Etho.
I'm not sure if that matters.

2. I never put any more than 500ml = 1/2 Litre
let's say in a 50 litre tank of petrol = 1% not the 10% in E10

While on the topic of crap in petrol.
A tip given to several years ago by a mechanic is never, ever fill up if you see a tanker in a garage.
What has just happened with the deposit of new stock is also a stirring up of the crap on the bottom of the garage tank.

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FormulaNova said..
Before the advent of E10 and the like, people (well me at least) used to add metho to petrol every now and then to dissolve any water that was in the fuel system. The idea was that it would mix with the water and be flushed through the system.

Was this misinformation? I never had a problem with it.

Misinformation. You only use metho if you are completely out of cask wine.

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Knottedup said..
Yes I also did the same and maybe it worked, who knows?

But there are a couple of differences.
1. It was Metho not Etho.
I'm not sure if that matters.

2. I never put any more than 500ml = 1/2 Litre
let's say in a 50 litre tank of petrol = 1% not the 10% in E10

While on the topic of crap in petrol.
A tip given to several years ago by a mechanic is never, ever fill up if you see a tanker in a garage.
What has just happened with the deposit of new stock is also a stirring up of the crap on the bottom of the garage tank.

I think Metho is mainly ethanol, with the methylated bit added to stop people drinking it.

I would have dumped whole bottles into the tank, so I am thinking I would have possibly had 2 to 5% of metho in there.

I haven't done any research, but I though the problem with a high % of ethanol was that some rubbers will be destroyed, but otherwise it is fine in the fuel system.

Like most things car related its really hard to relate something like fuel quality back to a problem unless its really obvious like a blockage. I think you would never be able to tell the effect e10 has on your car unless a hose completely falls apart.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

Knottedup said..
Yes I also did the same and maybe it worked, who knows?

But there are a couple of differences.
1. It was Metho not Etho.
I'm not sure if that matters.

2. I never put any more than 500ml = 1/2 Litre
let's say in a 50 litre tank of petrol = 1% not the 10% in E10

While on the topic of crap in petrol.
A tip given to several years ago by a mechanic is never, ever fill up if you see a tanker in a garage.
What has just happened with the deposit of new stock is also a stirring up of the crap on the bottom of the garage tank.

I think Metho is mainly ethanol, with the methylated bit added to stop people drinking it.

I would have dumped whole bottles into the tank, so I am thinking I would have possibly had 2 to 5% of metho in there.

I haven't done any research, but I though the problem with a high % of ethanol was that some rubbers will be destroyed, but otherwise it is fine in the fuel system.

Like most things car related its really hard to relate something like fuel quality back to a problem unless its really obvious like a blockage. I think you would never be able to tell the effect e10 has on your car unless a hose completely falls apart.

One thing I can say for sure is Mentholated spirits is Methanol Alcohol with that bitter additive to try and stop people drinking it.
Metho is toxic to humans and has a different chemical makeup to Ethanol which is the alcohol we drink.