I read recently about this Dunning Kruger effect.

Apparently its where people don't realise how bad they are and think they are actually doing a good job.

I envy these people! I am one of those people that always think that there's the chance of a problem, even if I am pretty confident in my solution, and if someone asks my professional opinion, I will tell them so and why. It seems I shouldn't be saying this, and instead should be saying that everything is fine and there are no problems at all.

At least it answers a question for me about some people that I have met that have no idea but still think they are doing a fantastic job.

Maybe I am one of those people...?

There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" ~ Bertrand Russell

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Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

There's a difference between positive thinking and thinking you are doing a good job when you aren't.

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TwoSheets said..
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" ~ Bertrand Russell

Yes, I think that's the gist of the theory. I didn't realise it was a thing as I only have myself as a sample and I have no idea about everyone else.

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Harrow said..

Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

There's a difference between positive thinking and thinking you are doing a good job when you aren't.

Yes, there is a big difference. I think I have a very positive outlook even though you might only hear me complaining about things on Seabreeze

I think positivity and negativity are different things. I think some people have them, and they can't change them easily. I just feel lucky that I am positive.

There is also something to be said about cheerful people that put a nice spin on things, even if they don't know what they are doing. I have worked with a lot of those people and they are nice to be around, but like anything, the extremes are annoying.

The Peter principle. "Rising to your level of incompetence"

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Harrow said..

Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

There's a difference between positive thinking and thinking you are doing a good job when you aren't.

Well, I don't know if you have kids Harrow, but when a 5 year old brings in their painting and they are so proud of it, they are just over joyed. But sure, there is room for improvement. Now you can say how clever they are and be very positive about it, or you can be negative. Which choice will encourage them or bring them down. I believe that if you are positive towards what ever your kids or work mates are doing, it will encourage them to do better.

Positive thinking or outlook on life may not mean you are doing a good job, but it is a way of helping yourself or others get there.

Isnt it that lovely feeling you get when you've finished looking at the majesty of the wild on your Sourh African safari park visit?

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Crusoe said..

Harrow said..

Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

There's a difference between positive thinking and thinking you are doing a good job when you aren't.

Well, I don't know if you have kids Harrow, but when a 5 year old brings in their painting and they are so proud of it, they are just over joyed. But sure, there is room for improvement. Now you can say how clever they are and be very positive about it, or you can be negative. Which choice will encourage them or bring them down. I believe that if you are positive towards what ever your kids or work mates are doing, it will encourage them to do better.

Positive thinking or outlook on life may not mean you are doing a good job, but it is a way of helping yourself or others get there.

I think Harrow might've been talking about an adult performing a professional role. I think most people understand the importance of a having a positive attitude for the achievements of a 5 year old.

Age 25, different story.

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Subsonic said..

Crusoe said..

Harrow said..

Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

There's a difference between positive thinking and thinking you are doing a good job when you aren't.

Well, I don't know if you have kids Harrow, but when a 5 year old brings in their painting and they are so proud of it, they are just over joyed. But sure, there is room for improvement. Now you can say how clever they are and be very positive about it, or you can be negative. Which choice will encourage them or bring them down. I believe that if you are positive towards what ever your kids or work mates are doing, it will encourage them to do better.

Positive thinking or outlook on life may not mean you are doing a good job, but it is a way of helping yourself or others get there.

I think Harrow might've been talking about an adult performing a professional role. I think most people understand the importance of a having a positive attitude for the achievements of a 5 year old.

Age 25, different story.

Not really, positive remarks are better than negative, no matter what your age. The way to help a 25 years old who may not know they are doing sub standard work is, to show them yourself. I use to run a crew of about 50 sparkies and I would regularly go and work with them to show them how I wanted a job done, if I thought there was room for improvement. It doesn't take long to work out that 'Wingeing your guts out' does f#*k-all to improve someones standard of work. You also gain the respect of your crew if you can put your money where your mouth is.

The problem is that some people who are in leadership positions can't do the work they actually supervise. They have been more interested in climbing the corporate ladder than acquiring skills. These people will probably never earn the respect of their crew and anything that comes out of their mouth, that refers to work standards, won't hold much weight (bit negative there Crusoe).

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Crusoe said..

Subsonic said..

Crusoe said..

Harrow said..

Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

There's a difference between positive thinking and thinking you are doing a good job when you aren't.

Well, I don't know if you have kids Harrow, but when a 5 year old brings in their painting and they are so proud of it, they are just over joyed. But sure, there is room for improvement. Now you can say how clever they are and be very positive about it, or you can be negative. Which choice will encourage them or bring them down. I believe that if you are positive towards what ever your kids or work mates are doing, it will encourage them to do better.

Positive thinking or outlook on life may not mean you are doing a good job, but it is a way of helping yourself or others get there.

I think Harrow might've been talking about an adult performing a professional role. I think most people understand the importance of a having a positive attitude for the achievements of a 5 year old.

Age 25, different story.

Not really, positive remarks are better than negative, no matter what your age. The way to help a 25 years old who may not know they are doing sub standard work is, to show them yourself. I use to run a crew of about 50 sparkies and I would regularly go and work with them to show them how I wanted a job done, if I thought there was room for improvement. It doesn't take long to work out that 'Wingeing your guts out' does f#*k-all to improve someones standard of work. You also gain the respect of your crew if you can put your money where your mouth is.

The problem is that some people who are in leadership positions can't do the work they actually supervise. They have been more interested in climbing the corporate ladder than acquiring skills. These people will probably never earn the respect of their crew and anything that comes out of their mouth, that refers to work standards, won't hold much weight (bit negative there Crusoe).

I think you might be barking up a slightly different tree.

When im teaching guys at work if i think they've done the best they can do but it could've been better, i always try to put a positive spin on it, and show them how. But the industry im in attracts a lot of slackness. People who think critically about the work they are doing, and the work they have done are few and far between. Most people doing the work have a "that'll do" attitude.

I really like my boss, he certainly has a positive attitude, but when he comes in and gives all the boys a pat on the back for a "that'll do" job it simply re-enforces their behaviour. A positive attitude can sometimes have a negative effect.

I think a positive attitude is a great way to be in general, but at a certain age people do have learn to deal with being told it could be better. Participation awards are part of the reason why there are so many snowflakes around at the moment

My "boss" is like the leader in the bottom frame. He's also the most productive of the team, he's a bit of a freak of nature in getting results. Plus whenever he's recognized as being the boss he denies it and says "I just work here".

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GreenPat said..

My "boss" is like the leader in the bottom frame. He's also the most productive of the team, he's a bit of a freak of nature in getting results. Plus whenever he's recognized as being the boss he denies it and says "I just work here".

My last boss at Optus who called himself a leader, wasnt even in that picture... up until it was time for redundancies, and then he magically appeared out of nowhere I think his definition of a leader was a bit off...

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TwoSheets said..
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" ~ Bertrand Russell

We had a conversation about the Dunning-Kruger effect the other day as we have a lot of clients who think they are smarter than they really are. Essentially, people who are "below average" find things hard, and reason that because they accomplished something hard they think they're smart. On the other side of the scale, people who are "above average" find the same things easy, so figure that everyone finds them easy and they haven't achieved much by accomplishing them.

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GreenPat said..

My "boss" is like the leader in the bottom frame. He's also the most productive of the team, he's a bit of a freak of nature in getting results. Plus whenever he's recognized as being the boss he denies it and says "I just work here".

Not really a good model to follow....

The best and hardest working baker doesn't necessarily make the best bakery business owner.

The best bakery business owner doesn't have time to bake if he's running the business.

The bloke with the arrow is the guy you want working for you....

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FormulaNova said..
I read recently about this Dunning Kruger effect.

Apparently its where people don't realise how bad they are and think they are actually doing a good job.

The less skilled/educated the workforce the more common this is.

The more skilled/educated the workforce the more they realise how little they know and they continue the search for more knowledge. The smarter they get the more they realise they don't know and the more they search....

Many doctors are this way inclined for example....

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Main said..

FormulaNova said..
I read recently about this Dunning Kruger effect.

Apparently its where people don't realise how bad they are and think they are actually doing a good job.

The less skilled/educated the workforce the more common this is.

The more skilled/educated the workforce the more they realise how little they know and they continue the search for more knowledge. The smarter they get the more they realise they don't know and the more they search....

Many doctors are this way inclined for example....

I can imagine. I am guessing that you would see some outright idiots that think they are doing a great job...

..but its not limited to just the less educated workforces. I have come across so many people in my industry that think they are doing a great job and I do better and am a bit unsure if what I am doing is good enough. For a long time there I thought that I was somehow missing some important hidden step, but it seems not..

The worst thing is when you get a cluster of people where they think they are doing a good job and you start to doubt your own approach. I was telling someone today where I had a project manager insist that we could deliver a project in 7 weeks, ignore my insistence that we couldn't even scope it until we met with the customer, and then have my manager back HIM. WTF? Apparently I wasn't cooperating... ??
It was only when we went to the customer meeting that it came back to reality. The customer laughed at him when he said '7 weeks' when we had only just met them, kicked the PM out of the meeting, kept me, and started discussing how to kick off the project. I would not be surprised if that PM is now 'managing' some high value projects somewhere.

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Main said..

FormulaNova said..
I read recently about this Dunning Kruger effect.

Apparently its where people don't realise how bad they are and think they are actually doing a good job.

The less skilled/educated the workforce the more common this is.

The more skilled/educated the workforce the more they realise how little they know and they continue the search for more knowledge. The smarter they get the more they realise they don't know and the more they search....

Many doctors are this way inclined for example....

I feel I am bad for going off on tangents, but I guess that's the essence of conversation... I am a bit of a details person when it comes down to medicine involving me though.

If I ask a doctor to explain something to me, and he can't, I don't have that much confidence. On the other hand, if the doctor is happy to explain it and is confident enough to do so, I am much more happy in their abilities. I think all of the good ones have never had a problem explaining things to me, and sometimes they seem to enjoy it.

I can't imagine a good doctor that thinks they know it all, as I am sure they learn enough to know that there is much more to learn.

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FormulaNova said..

Main said..

FormulaNova said..
I read recently about this Dunning Kruger effect.

Apparently its where people don't realise how bad they are and think they are actually doing a good job.

The less skilled/educated the workforce the more common this is.

The more skilled/educated the workforce the more they realise how little they know and they continue the search for more knowledge. The smarter they get the more they realise they don't know and the more they search....

Many doctors are this way inclined for example....

I can imagine. I am guessing that you would see some outright idiots that think they are doing a great job...

..but its not limited to just the less educated workforces. I have come across so many people in my industry that think they are doing a great job and I do better and am a bit unsure if what I am doing is good enough. For a long time there I thought that I was somehow missing some important hidden step, but it seems not..

The worst thing is when you get a cluster of people where they think they are doing a good job and you start to doubt your own approach. I was telling someone today where I had a project manager insist that we could deliver a project in 7 weeks, ignore my insistence that we couldn't even scope it until we met with the customer, and then have my manager back HIM. WTF? Apparently I wasn't cooperating... ??
It was only when we went to the customer meeting that it came back to reality. The customer laughed at him when he said '7 weeks' when we had only just met them, kicked the PM out of the meeting, kept me, and started discussing how to kick off the project. I would not be surprised if that PM is now 'managing' some high value projects somewhere.

I haven't really analysed it too much but in recent times I've been overly exposed to people of low intelligence. What often seems to come with low intelligence are low personal standards. This applies to everything in their lives from ambition to health to even hygiene. Of course it applies to the quality of their work as well.

Whats more interesting are the street smart people Vs the book smart people (or academic) or the even rarer guys who are both. Many of the street smart guys are often not that book smart and vice versa.

Ive always wondered why?

i guess most of us are somewhere in the middle.

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FormulaNova said..

I feel I am bad for going off on tangents, but I guess that's the essence of conversation... I am a bit of a details person when it comes down to medicine involving me though.

If I ask a doctor to explain something to me, and he can't, I don't have that much confidence. On the other hand, if the doctor is happy to explain it and is confident enough to do so, I am much more happy in their abilities. I think all of the good ones have never had a problem explaining things to me, and sometimes they seem to enjoy it.

I can't imagine a good doctor that thinks they know it all, as I am sure they learn enough to know that there is much more to learn.

Reminds me of this quote, attributed to Einstein:

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

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Crusoe said..
There is a lot to be said for positive thinking. People with a positive attitude are also nicer to engage with. It's like playing a sport against someone who is better than you, you (or they) seem to lift your game.

I remember seeing a video of a guy on a train who was laughing, it was a set up, but other people on the train joined in in the laughter. I'm sure they ended up feeling better for it.

If you live your life like Glum from the children's cartoon Gullivers Travels, you are not going to enrich the lives of others around you.

Put a smile on your face, the people around you will be better off, which in turn will help to lift your game. Might also keep the Black Dog out of you life :)

That's nothing to do with Dunning-Kruger.

But anyway, there's a (crazy?) guy that sits alongside the main thoroughfares in Sydney city with a jukebox playing super happy tunes, and he kinda sways around with a big smile on his face, trying to spread the happy mood he is in. (he kinda looks like he is still going from the night before, if you follow)

Now, if I'm already in a decent or better mood he's pretty funny. He might be stark raving mad but I have to admit he makes me smile. People have started taking selfies with him and such. He is super positive.

However, if I'm truly having a bad morning, serious stress in my life, he make me feel a lot worse. He comes off like a shallow ****ing git that has no ****ing idea what some people are going through, and it's all well and good he doesn't have those problems but he doesn't have to go rubbing it in everyone's face like that. ****ing, shallow, mindless, asshole.

He has no idea how he affects some people some of the time. He makes us worse. We just don't say anything.

I can guarantee you someone on that train with the guy laughing wanted to knock his teeth in.

Happy people make happy people happier, and sad people sadder. Sad people make sad people happier, and happy people sadder.

^ Do you kick him in the shins then?

There was a "Dyscalculia" Freddy-Kruger moment in my chilli patch a few months ago

she does not pick chilli for me anymore