Hi all, recently my Kelpie and my neighbors Kelpie (brothers, 11months old) jumped a fence and rushed to 'say hello' to another dog on the street. While there was no attack as such, the fact the two do everything at full pace, I respect, can make other owners nervous. I will add at this point the neighbors dog has had complaint/s (at least 1 know of) previously so there is a history there. That dog has now been surrendered to Council (RIP Cody)

The other owner made a complaint to council. I spoke with the officer and she advised there would be a fine and someone would be in touch to assess my yard etc, fair enough. On the weekend, I receive a letter from Council that I must remove the dog from my house or surrender him. (I was told by the officer that any dog with a record cannot be re-homed, which means...)

As a first official offense, is this going too far? I feel my dog is being unfairly deemed as an 'attack dog' by association and several steps have been skipped. I have nowhere to send the pup, nor am I going to surrender him to die.

Does anyone have any advice or examples on how I might get council to review their stance?

I love Kelpies, but they are not city dogs unless owners are very attentive....their exercise and mental stimulation requirements are off the scale...

If there was no attack then the response does seems excessive.....no one got bitten right?

I can only assume the review of your yard came up as unsuitable to contain the dog? ie if you can't stop it from happening again then that would explain the council requiring you to remove the dog or surrender it....

Give them a call and talk to them to ascertain your options.

At 11 months old there are probably plenty of rural properties who might still be interested in taking the dog....

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Paradox said..
I love Kelpies, but they are not city dogs unless owners are very attentive....their exercise and mental stimulation requirements are off the scale...

If there was no attack then the response does seems excessive.....no one got bitten right?

I can only assume the review of your yard came up as unsuitable to contain the dog? ie if you can't stop it from happening again then that would explain the council requiring you to remove the dog or surrender it....

Give them a call and talk to them to ascertain your options.

At 11 months old there are probably plenty of rural properties who might still be interested in taking the dog....

While I do live in the city now I was raised out west w/ working dogs so I was prepared for the exercise and training he requires. I've dropped 8kg since bringing him home. He is well trained and walks off the lead 90% of the time but I will leash him if another Mum, kids, family w/ dog comes my way. This is more for the humans than other dogs. He really couldn't care less about others when I'm about. People are generally amazed at his intelligence/obedience for his age. He is self trained but he does make me look better than I am.

No one was bitten. Had that been the case I would have no hesitation in letting him go. Council have not even seen in my yard but deem it unsuitable?? The fencing issue is pointless gesture anyway, he is a Kelpie, he will jump any fence but I will do it to appease BCC officers.

I did try to call BCC and it was like speaking with a robot. I was continually referred to the dispute resolution section of their Website. Knowing I have little chance of them changing their position, there are 3 stages of appeal. I can already see it heading to court. Who has time for this?? It is just him and I at home and I will not let him go.

Has anyone taken on BCC on a similar issue and won? Please, I need all the community support and information I can gather to help my little man survive the city!

Tough on a first offence, and no easy recourse like chatting with the ranger in your yard.
i agree that if you take him out west then no problem of finding a good home at that age and training.
good luck and stand your ground.

Letting your dog jump the fence is not on, you have a responsibility of not allowing your animals out of your control. So no sympathy here because what if that was my 80 year old mother who is frail walking down the road and gets bowled over by you lovable pet.

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Coastar said..

Paradox said..
I love Kelpies, but they are not city dogs unless owners are very attentive....their exercise and mental stimulation requirements are off the scale...

If there was no attack then the response does seems excessive.....no one got bitten right?

I can only assume the review of your yard came up as unsuitable to contain the dog? ie if you can't stop it from happening again then that would explain the council requiring you to remove the dog or surrender it....

Give them a call and talk to them to ascertain your options.

At 11 months old there are probably plenty of rural properties who might still be interested in taking the dog....

While I do live in the city now I was raised out west w/ working dogs so I was prepared for the exercise and training he requires. I've dropped 8kg since bringing him home. He is well trained and walks off the lead 90% of the time but I will leash him if another Mum, kids, family w/ dog comes my way. This is more for the humans than other dogs. He really couldn't care less about others when I'm about. People are generally amazed at his intelligence/obedience for his age. He is self trained but he does make me look better than I am.

No one was bitten. Had that been the case I would have no hesitation in letting him go. Council have not even seen in my yard but deem it unsuitable?? The fencing issue is pointless gesture anyway, he is a Kelpie, he will jump any fence but I will do it to appease BCC officers.

I did try to call BCC and it was like speaking with a robot. I was continually referred to the dispute resolution section of their Website. Knowing I have little chance of them changing their position, there are 3 stages of appeal. I can already see it heading to court. Who has time for this?? It is just him and I at home and I will not let him go.

Has anyone taken on BCC on a similar issue and won? Please, I need all the community support and information I can gather to help my little man survive the city!

Hi. I refuse to believe that they can take your dog away because its boisterous? Any chance of talking to complainant? What is his/her's complaint? where they physically threatened or intimidated by your dog? Sounds very harsh to me and something I have only heard about if the dog was a proven threat to life and limb.
maybe get some free legal advice from Legal Aid etc? Sorry to hear you have to deal with this. good luck. I know how close you can get to your furry friends.

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Hardcarve1 said..
Letting your dog jump the fence is not on, you have a responsibility of not allowing your animals out of your control. So no sympathy here because what if that was my 80 year old mother who is frail walking down the road and gets bowled over by you lovable pet.

Mate, I'm not pretending he is an angel but yours and all mothers are safe. No animal or person was harmed but I do respect that individuals can be spooked by a dog running toward their dog, irrespective of whether something happens or not.

Do you think it is reasonable he should be put to sleep for such an offense though?

I would try to locate the officer you spoke to originally (that suggested there would be a fine/review of your backyard) and find out what's going on. It may be as simple as a screw up in paper work, or her sticking a report in and some paper monkey at the council grouping your dog in with the other owners situation.

If you've got her name, I wouldn't discuss too much about it with anyone else at the council till you've spoken directly to her, you may well get rail roaded by a desk jockey.

If that all fails, seek legal advice, the last thing you want is a ranger rocking up on your doorstep, expecting the dog to be surrendered and no recourse to meet them with.

I seriously hope Australia's not regressing to the point where a much loved pet loses it's life because someone unduly "lost control of their bladder"

(I'm not a lawyer, that's just what I'd do)

too late for that advice now, but my pitbull loved eating up the fence and going for a stroll on the street.

Thing is he is very frightening and like most large alpha males will rip apart any other male he sees.

I had to go for the wireless fence + shock collar, works just fine, I felt very bad and guilty when I saw him get his first shock but he since knows the boundaries of my property. And I don't even have to worry about leaving the gate open.

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Coastar said..

Hardcarve1 said..
Letting your dog jump the fence is not on, you have a responsibility of not allowing your animals out of your control. So no sympathy here because what if that was my 80 year old mother who is frail walking down the road and gets bowled over by you lovable pet.

Mate, I'm not pretending he is an angel but yours and all mothers are safe. No animal or person was harmed but I do respect that individuals can be spooked by a dog running toward their dog, irrespective of whether something happens or not.

Do you think it is reasonable he should be put to sleep for such an offense though?

no one wants a pet put down but how are we to judge how the dog behaved when out of the yard. What if the person did feel for their safety or the safety of their pet, what about their rights to feel safe on the street. Your opinion is the dog was safe and wouldn't hurt a fly and that may well be the case but let's think also of the people or other animals that may feel threatened. If you kept your pet under control you wouldn't have the problem you now have and that is the sad fact.
I know I come across black and white but we must take responsibility for our animals and if the laws are Brocken then accept them. I would contact the council and explain the new measures you will do to make sure your pet stays in the yard and do them so you can have fluffy back. Let's hope this end well.

^^^
Well said

Being a newlywed dog owner myself, I find this topic both interesting and disturbing

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seanhogan said..
too late for that advice now, but my pitbull loved eating up the fence and going for a stroll on the street.

Thing is he is very frightening and like most large alpha males will rip apart any other male he sees.

I had to go for the wireless fence + shock collar, works just fine, I felt very bad and guilty when I saw him get his first shock but he since knows the boundaries of my property. And I don't even have to worry about leaving the gate open.

Don't worry about the guilt of the shock. When I bought one for my dog, it was like she got hit by an electric fence... but she came running to me, which is what she was meant to do. She worked out that if I called, something bad could happen (from somewhere) and that the only safe place to run to was to me.

This is good as it could save her from getting hit by a car. I felt a bit guilty when I used this to stop her chasing cats across the road, but it worked. She has now associated pain with chasing cats (those damn cats are magic!).

Unfortunately she has worked out this doesn't apply to dogs, so she runs across the road to greet another dog, completely oblivious to traffic, but is scared of chasing cats...

I think it is always good to remember that you trust your dog, but other people don't. My dog is a big sook, and would lick anyone to death, but they don't know that. On the other hand if she feels threatened by another dog, she will start to fight. So, for me, it is important to make sure that she doesn't get out and chase after other dogs,

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Paradox said..
I love Kelpies, but they are not city dogs unless owners are very attentive....their exercise and mental stimulation requirements are off the scale...

If there was no attack then the response does seems excessive.....no one got bitten right?

I can only assume the review of your yard came up as unsuitable to contain the dog? ie if you can't stop it from happening again then that would explain the council requiring you to remove the dog or surrender it....

Give them a call and talk to them to ascertain your options.

At 11 months old there are probably plenty of rural properties who might still be interested in taking the dog....

While I do live in the city now I was raised out west w/ working dogs so I was prepared for the exercise and training he requires. I've dropped 8kg since bringing him home. He is well trained and walks off the lead 90% of the time but I will leash him if another Mum, kids, family w/ dog comes my way. This is more for the humans than other dogs. He really couldn't care less about others when I'm about. People are generally amazed at his intelligence/obedience for his age. He is self trained but he does make me look better than I am.

No one was bitten. Had that been the case I would have no hesitation in letting him go. Council have not even seen in my yard but deem it unsuitable?? The fencing issue is pointless gesture anyway, he is a Kelpie, he will jump any fence but I will do it to appease BCC officers.

I did try to call BCC and it was like speaking with a robot. I was continually referred to the dispute resolution section of their Website. Knowing I have little chance of them changing their position, there are 3 stages of appeal. I can already see it heading to court. Who has time for this?? It is just him and I at home and I will not let him go.

Has anyone taken on BCC on a similar issue and won? Please, I need all the community support and information I can gather to help my little man survive the city!

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

seanhogan said..
too late for that advice now, but my pitbull loved eating up the fence and going for a stroll on the street.

Thing is he is very frightening and like most large alpha males will rip apart any other male he sees.

I had to go for the wireless fence + shock collar, works just fine, I felt very bad and guilty when I saw him get his first shock but he since knows the boundaries of my property. And I don't even have to worry about leaving the gate open.

Don't worry about the guilt of the shock. When I bought one for my dog, it was like she got hit by an electric fence... but she came running to me, which is what she was meant to do. She worked out that if I called, something bad could happen (from somewhere) and that the only safe place to run to was to me.

This is good as it could save her from getting hit by a car. I felt a bit guilty when I used this to stop her chasing cats across the road, but it worked. She has now associated pain with chasing cats (those damn cats are magic!).

Unfortunately she has worked out this doesn't apply to dogs, so she runs across the road to greet another dog, completely oblivious to traffic, but is scared of chasing cats...

I think it is always good to remember that you trust your dog, but other people don't. My dog is a big sook, and would lick anyone to death, but they don't know that. On the other hand if she feels threatened by another dog, she will start to fight. So, for me, it is important to make sure that she doesn't get out and chase after other dogs,

I've looked into the E-Fence before. I know, as explained here, that they can work but I'm not sure they are legal? Or, most importantly, do BCC recognise them as an appropriate enclosure? I have always associated the E-Fence as a training tool but not a permanent fixture. It is my understanding that the structure has to be permanent.

Does anyone know this as fact? If so, can anyone recommend a brand?

Call A Current Affair.

They love a "Bully Council vs Innocent Pet Owner" story.

The media attention will often result in senior Councillors overturning a decision based on strict adherence to bi-laws when simple logic has been ignored.

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Hardcarve1 said..

Coastar said..

Hardcarve1 said..
Letting your dog jump the fence is not on, you have a responsibility of not allowing your animals out of your control. So no sympathy here because what if that was my 80 year old mother who is frail walking down the road and gets bowled over by you lovable pet.

Mate, I'm not pretending he is an angel but yours and all mothers are safe. No animal or person was harmed but I do respect that individuals can be spooked by a dog running toward their dog, irrespective of whether something happens or not.

Do you think it is reasonable he should be put to sleep for such an offense though?

no one wants a pet put down but how are we to judge how the dog behaved when out of the yard. What if the person did feel for their safety or the safety of their pet, what about their rights to feel safe on the street. Your opinion is the dog was safe and wouldn't hurt a fly and that may well be the case but let's think also of the people or other animals that may feel threatened. If you kept your pet under control you wouldn't have the problem you now have and that is the sad fact.
I know I come across black and white but we must take responsibility for our animals and if the laws are Brocken then accept them. I would contact the council and explain the new measures you will do to make sure your pet stays in the yard and do them so you can have fluffy back. Let's hope this end well.

I do appreciate the feedback. I am accountable for the dogs actions and I'm not hiding from that fact. I have no option to speak with the complainant for their privacy. As a dog owner I'm sure they would not want this result and I don't hold any ill will for lodging a complaint. They were obviously intimidated by 2 dogs rushing toward them. I'm no shrinking violet in stature myself and I would be, at first at least. Given the opportunity I would apologise profusely, do whatever is needed to ensure them it will never happen again. This is a neighborly thing to do whether it was reported or not.

It is just hard to fathom that this is a first offense order!

Our esteemed Premier does jog past occasionally so I wonder if my boy went straight for the top dog. Which, in Mr Newman s case, is only 4ft from the ground!

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mick14 said..
Call A Current Affair.

They love a "Bully Council vs Innocent Pet Owner" story.

The media attention will often result in senior Councillors overturning a decision based on strict adherence to bi-laws when simple logic has been ignored.

I'll admit the thought did cross my mind. I have such a low opinion of that show that I could not be the 'victim', knowing how they would present it. Knowing that I am at fault in the first instance. I am seeking advice not sympathy. Surely I'm not the first person this has happened too??

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Coastar said..
Hi all, recently my Kelpie and my neighbors Kelpie (brothers, 11months old) jumped a fence and rushed to 'say hello' to another dog on the street. While there was no attack as such, the fact the two do everything at full pace, I respect, can make other owners nervous. I will add at this point the neighbors dog has had complaint/s (at least 1 know of) previously so there is a history there. That dog has now been surrendered to Council (RIP Cody)

The other owner made a complaint to council. I spoke with the officer and she advised there would be a fine and someone would be in touch to assess my yard etc, fair enough. On the weekend, I receive a letter from Council that I must remove the dog from my house or surrender him. (I was told by the officer that any dog with a record cannot be re-homed, which means...)

As a first official offense, is this going too far? I feel my dog is being unfairly deemed as an 'attack dog' by association and several steps have been skipped. I have nowhere to send the pup, nor am I going to surrender him to die.

Does anyone have any advice or examples on how I might get council to review their stance?

Write them a letter back and ask for a review of the decision making process.
you can also ask for all material relating to your case under FOI
the bureaucracy hates internal review
if you don't get a timely response (set a date in your correspondence) the go to the ombudsman and they might review the decision making process

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Coastar said..

FormulaNova said..

seanhogan said..
too late for that advice now, but my pitbull loved eating up the fence and going for a stroll on the street.

Thing is he is very frightening and like most large alpha males will rip apart any other male he sees.

I had to go for the wireless fence + shock collar, works just fine, I felt very bad and guilty when I saw him get his first shock but he since knows the boundaries of my property. And I don't even have to worry about leaving the gate open.

Don't worry about the guilt of the shock. When I bought one for my dog, it was like she got hit by an electric fence... but she came running to me, which is what she was meant to do. She worked out that if I called, something bad could happen (from somewhere) and that the only safe place to run to was to me.

This is good as it could save her from getting hit by a car. I felt a bit guilty when I used this to stop her chasing cats across the road, but it worked. She has now associated pain with chasing cats (those damn cats are magic!).

Unfortunately she has worked out this doesn't apply to dogs, so she runs across the road to greet another dog, completely oblivious to traffic, but is scared of chasing cats...

I think it is always good to remember that you trust your dog, but other people don't. My dog is a big sook, and would lick anyone to death, but they don't know that. On the other hand if she feels threatened by another dog, she will start to fight. So, for me, it is important to make sure that she doesn't get out and chase after other dogs,

I've looked into the E-Fence before. I know, as explained here, that they can work but I'm not sure they are legal? Or, most importantly, do BCC recognise them as an appropriate enclosure? I have always associated the E-Fence as a training tool but not a permanent fixture. It is my understanding that the structure has to be permanent.

Does anyone know this as fact? If so, can anyone recommend a brand?

I bought my remote control collar from some place in Qld. They are not legal in all states, but I think they are in Qld. The model I bought was something like 'Innotek' or something like that. It was good in that it had multiple level settings, and also a safety feature where if a button is held down it stops after a small number of pulses.

Used in the hands of someone that is able to train their dog they are good. I think they ban them in some states because of the potential of idiots using them without adequate training.

I suspect the same company would sell the e-fence type.

Unfortunately the remote control broke after a few years, and I bought a cheapy replacement from ebay which is rubbish.

Edit: Just found this which shows where you are allowed to use them:

http://help.vetnpetdirect.com.au/customer/portal/articles/888946-electronic-dog-collars-and-the-law-in-australia

I suspect your dog has been found as "menacing"... it is the only explanation. Probably on the advice the recipient was afraid for thier safety.

www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/laws-and-permits/laws-and-permits-for-residents/animals-and-pets/cats-and-dogs/breaches-and-fines

The Queensland Government has passed laws introducing the category of menacing for regulated dogs. A dog may be declared menacing if it displays menacing behaviour and causes fear for a person or animal. Once your dog has been declared menacing, you will be given certain conditions to follow.

They do not outline the "conditions"

If so, and you are convinced it did not display aggressive behaviour - I would challenge it. Ultimately it is regrettable if someone feared for their safety, but if it was only saying hi at 100k/hr then that is a bit different.

You will have to keep it in your yard though....if you convince them - it won't get another chance.

I used to have a border collie and it stayed within our 6-7ft high fences....except for thunder and fireworks....then it would go over 5 in a row....we just made sure he had our phone number on the collar...usually had him back within the hour....:P

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Paradox said..
I suspect your dog has been found as "menacing"... it is the only explanation. Probably on the advice the recipient was afraid for thier safety.

www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/laws-and-permits/laws-and-permits-for-residents/animals-and-pets/cats-and-dogs/breaches-and-fines

The Queensland Government has passed laws introducing the category of menacing for regulated dogs. A dog may be declared menacing if it displays menacing behaviour and causes fear for a person or animal. Once your dog has been declared menacing, you will be given certain conditions to follow.

They do not outline the "conditions"

If so, and you are convinced it did not display aggressive behaviour - I would challenge it. Ultimately it is regrettable if someone feared for their safety, but if it was only saying hi at 100k/hr then that is a bit different.

You will have to keep it in your yard though....if you convince them - it won't get another chance.

I used to have a border collie and it stayed within our 6-7ft high fences....except for thunder and fireworks....then it would go over 5 in a row....we just made sure he had our phone number on the collar...usually had him back within the hour....:P

Thanks Para. I'm definitely going to fight and after reading the letter again BCC have given 4 days, received Monday 25th in the mail and I MUST permanently remove the dog or surrender him by Thursday 28th Aug! I couldn't get him to another home outside of BCC in that time anyway. Thank you for sending this link, I'm all over it. I have my plan (THANKS TO YOU ALL TO HELP GATHER MY THOUGHTS) and I will lodge my review tomorrow. It will be rejected, which is a good thing because the 2nd & 3rd stage of appeal goes above them. I can then argue on truth, logic and reasoning and leave the small minds and big egos behind. I'll be sure to be in touch when I win.

Did anyone see the Today Show this morning? Hugo, a lovable mut, down the GC is facing a similar fate for what appears to be similar reasons, respecting we only hear 1 side. My advantage, I have my dog so I don't have to plead to have him returned, they need to come get him from me.

Here's a link. www.jump-in.com.au/show/today/today-takeaway/2014/august/saving-hugo/

Mate - check out the Act s.89 www.legislation.qld.gov.au/browse/aspassed
They are required under legislation s.90 to give you 14 days notice of a declaration prior to making it for a start.
Is this something the liberals should consider repealing? Write to your local member...
Definitely let us know ho you get on... I have two border collies that love to chase stuff...
If they can be declared menacing based on another individuals irrational fears then we may be in trouble -
they might lick you to death I suppose....

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Rails said..
Mate - check out the Act s.89 www.legislation.qld.gov.au/browse/aspassed
They are required under legislation s.90 to give you 14 days notice of a declaration prior to making it for a start.
Is this something the liberals should consider repealing? Write to your local member...
Definitely let us know ho you get on... I have two border collies that love to chase stuff...
If they can be declared menacing based on another individuals irrational fears then we may be in trouble -
they might lick you to death I suppose....

Thank you Rails, that Doc is really helpful for my cause. Cheers

I dont understand why you would join a water sport forum to ask this (only saying because all your 8 posts are in this one thread...) but; there are plenty of animal welfare groups out there that would have the full information on your options here. From what you say, it seems very unjust for a first ofence, particularly if no further investigation and communication has been undertaken by the council. There seems little chance the decision could stand on review if what you have stated is correct and omission free so my advice would be to read up on their website and the appropriate ombudsman's website. Be apologetic and open to a few simple fixes, even if it costs a bit, like a purpose build fence and it seems unlikely anything other than a good outcome would be achieved. But act quickly as if they enter your property without you knowing and remove your animal, the whole game changes unfortunately.

Id also like to make a general comment to all animal owners that comment that their animal would never harm anything... All animals, people included, can get unpredictably vicious given the right trigger, so no council official will listen to that sort of speak, nor will anyone startled by your animal if they have had a decent fright. Just because in your presence your animal is the friendliest, most waggiest tailed hound with the most active lick tool on earth, doesnt mean it always is, or will be, respect the laws that keep the rest of us safe and comfortable. And Im a massive dog person, unfortunately the way other people and their animals behave, directly impacts all of us and our rights with our animals...

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Cal said..

Id also like to make a general comment to all animal owners that comment that their animal would never harm anything... All animals, people included, can get unpredictably vicious given the right trigger, so no council official will listen to that sort of speak, nor will anyone startled by your animal if they have had a decent fright. Just because in your presence your animal is the friendliest, most waggiest tailed hound with the most active lick tool on earth, doesnt mean it always is, or will be, respect the laws that keep the rest of us safe and comfortable. And Im a massive dog person, unfortunately the way other people and their animals behave, directly impacts all of us and our rights with our animals...

I have to agree with that, but also from the perspective that a lot of people don't feel comfortable with dogs, so don't know how to react to them. My close family were all brought up with dogs, so they seem to find most dogs not a threat and can get along with them easily.

On the other hand, I have some relatives that were never raised with dogs, so they are scared of them. A simple movement by the dog has them worried, whereas anyone in our family knows its not a threat. I can understand that, as a solid dog with sharp teeth can be an intimidating thing for some people. It is weird though that my 3 year old niece has no fear of her dog, but her 8 year old cousin is scared and won't go near it. It is one of the most placid dogs around, but she doesn't understand it.

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FormulaNova said..

Cal said..

Id also like to make a general comment to all animal owners that comment that their animal would never harm anything... All animals, people included, can get unpredictably vicious given the right trigger, so no council official will listen to that sort of speak, nor will anyone startled by your animal if they have had a decent fright. Just because in your presence your animal is the friendliest, most waggiest tailed hound with the most active lick tool on earth, doesnt mean it always is, or will be, respect the laws that keep the rest of us safe and comfortable. And Im a massive dog person, unfortunately the way other people and their animals behave, directly impacts all of us and our rights with our animals...

I have to agree with that, but also from the perspective that a lot of people don't feel comfortable with dogs, so don't know how to react to them. My close family were all brought up with dogs, so they seem to find most dogs not a threat and can get along with them easily.

On the other hand, I have some relatives that were never raised with dogs, so they are scared of them. A simple movement by the dog has them worried, whereas anyone in our family knows its not a threat. I can understand that, as a solid dog with sharp teeth can be an intimidating thing for some people. It is weird though that my 3 year old niece has no fear of her dog, but her 8 year old cousin is scared and won't go near it. It is one of the most placid dogs around, but she doesn't understand it.

So true FN, and the same goes in reverse, animals get used to those around them but given a new person, acting in a different manner and the animal has every right to be scared, defensive etc. It is our job as animal keepers to ensure this then does not become a problem. Many council officers will spend much of their time picking up the mess when this scenario goes wrong so the occasional over zealous reaction is understandable, but arguably inexcusable if an animal is unjustly destroyed.

Coastar, I for one think you are being treated unfairly. You want to take the correct steps to ensure your dog is secure and not an issue to people in your community. You should be given that opportunity, though it must be said that you should have already done so and this situation would not have arisen.

But... not everyone is perfect and no one was harmed because of your actions. Why the council will not inspect your property, ensure that the dog is adequately restrained from getting out and close the case is beyond me.

They should be focusing their attention on the people that don't want to comply, not the ones who are prepared to.

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Cal said..

So true FN, and the same goes in reverse, animals get used to those around them but given a new person, acting in a different manner and the animal has every right to be scared, defensive etc. It is our job as animal keepers to ensure this then does not become a problem. Many council officers will spend much of their time picking up the mess when this scenario goes wrong so the occasional over zealous reaction is understandable, but arguably inexcusable if an animal is unjustly destroyed.

One of my pet peeves when taking my dog to a 'doggy park' is that some owners don't know how dogs think. I can understand that sometimes its not easy either, as they do think differently to the way we do.

My dog is not the best sometimes and seems to get intimidated by some dogs, so wants to fight them. I find that when another dog runs up and wants to meet my dog it is better to let her loose, so that she is not protecting me, and not spooked by the lead. Unfortunately some owners pull their dogs too them when another dog runs up to them and this makes the dog more aggressive as its now protecting its owner. Which results in a fight.

Similarly, related to the original post, sometimes dogs that know each other can form a pack, and they approach another dog or person differently. What might have been a simple meet and greet might turn into something more as the dogs reinforce each other.

One of the things that I find hard to get my head around is that when people comfort dogs, it seems to reinforce the dogs thoughts that something is wrong and it has something to be scared of. You might think you are reassuring your dog when something goes wrong, but you might also be reinforcing the idea that they should be scared.

While I am ranting on, it was interesting to watch a program where they did a study to see if people that had never owned dogs could understand what the yelps/barks from a dog meant. It seems that most people can tell what the dog wants/means from the sounds of the dog, which suggests that we have evolved so long with dogs as companions that they react the way we expect and we understand their reactions reasonably well, even if we have never had a dog.

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FormulaNova said..
a dog.

Yep, we have a long history with dogs. Similar to our long history with horses, cattle, sheep etc etc. There are many lessons about all these animals that are close to instinctual, however not everyone is in touch with / responsive to the same elements of their instincts...

You raise a good topic about comforting a dog and the unintended reinforcement that may in fact be the lesson learned. It is well worth reflecting on this as an animal owner, or human parent for that matter

Reading the act, you need to appeal to council ASAP, but that does not stay the order to remove or surrender the dog - to do that you need to apply to a local magistrates court for a stay. Do this ASAP as well.

184 Stay of operation of original decision
(1) A PID review application or general review application does not stay the original decision the subject of the application.[s 185] Animal Management (Cats and Dogs) Act 2008 Chapter 8 Reviews and appeals Part 1 Review of decisions 2008 Act No. 74 Page 109
(2) However, the applicant may, immediately after being given the information notice about the original decision, apply for a stay of the original decision to the Magistrates Court.
(3) The court may stay the original decision to secure the effectiveness of the review and a later appeal to the court.
(4) A stay may be granted on conditions the court considers appropriate

http://www.aiam.com.au/resources/files/proceedings/AIAM%202011/comonburke.pdf

This may also be of assistance...it provides guidance as to how council officers should determine "dangerous" Interestingly most state acts are very very vague on how this is to be done - I would use this to your advantage. I would address the dot points on the second last page positively to both council for the review and the magistrate for the stay.

Best of luck

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Cal said..
I dont understand why you would join a water sport forum to ask this (only saying because all your 8 posts are in this one thread...) but; there are plenty of animal welfare groups out there that would have the full information on your options here. From what you say, it seems very unjust for a first ofence, particularly if no further investigation and communication has been undertaken by the council. There seems little chance the decision could stand on review if what you have stated is correct and omission free so my advice would be to read up on their website and the appropriate ombudsman's website. Be apologetic and open to a few simple fixes, even if it costs a bit, like a purpose build fence and it seems unlikely anything other than a good outcome would be achieved. But act quickly as if they enter your property without yonowing and remove your animal, the whole game changes unfortunately.

Id also like to make a general comment to all animal owners that comment that their animal would never harm anything... All animals, people included, can get unpredictably vicious given the right trigger, so no council official will listen to that sort of speak, nor will anyone startled by your animal if they have had a decent fright. Just because in your presence your animal is the friendliest, most waggiest tailed hound with the most active lick tool on earth, doesnt mean it always is, or will be, respect the laws that keep the rest of us safe and comfortable. And Im a massive dog person, unfortunately the way other people and their animals behave, directly impacts all of us and our rights with our animals...

Hi Cal. We are on the same page. I hope I have not given the impression that my dog is innocent. He was out of the yard and that's my fault but I have fixed the fence (before I knew of this action) and there is merit in the pack mentality and the neighbors dog is gone as well. If I could speak with the person he frightened I would do what I could for their sake as well. They have every right to lodge a complaint for which Council must follow up. But to order a removal and/or destruction upon the first offense without so much as a conversation, yard inspection or any type of first step is preposterous, that's what I am fighting. I intend to prove the punishment severely outweighs the crime. Just to put this in perspective, late last year around 10pm, I had a knife pulled on me at my local train station. This 20ish y/o nutcase was breaking into cars in the station carpark when I called him out. Long story short the Police found him, he is well known to them, added these charges to his existing record for similar offenses. His day in court resulted in a fine and good behavior bond. I'm not suggesting he should've been euthanized but I would be open to neutering - for the sake of the global gene pool. My point, I'll take my chances in the justice system after my review is rejected by BCC. I believe I can provide a strong case based on fact, improvements to the enclosure and a reference from qualified and recognised opinion of 3rd party behaviorist on my dogs temperament. Best outcome, a full retraction on the BCC definition of my boy, fall back position meet every obligation BCC require to keep him at home. Either way, if I can set a precedent and BCC will have to provide significant just cause before they decide to execute an animal as their first response. Who knows, one day the Great Dane the dogs went to may intimidate someone one day and it may be offered a chance of life as a result. Swings and Roundabouts.

Cal, can I offer one suggestion in regard to your pet peeve. Consider the demographic and the type animals they own. Is it a fair guess they are an older generation or empty nesters with companion type dogs (pretty but ...). The amount of garbage offered as training advice, I believe, leads them to believe that type of positive reinforcement is the best method. If you only know what you read it is very convenient to not have to scowl at your new friend because Ceasar Milan or that type of character (I only reference him as a lady with a bluey approached me one morning, frustrated her cattle dog wouldn't respond to that method. No specific offense intended) advocates that approach to a breed familiar to their own. Like you and I, only in time will they start to get in tune with the idiosyncrasies of their pet and dogs in general. Good intentions don't necessarily mean good behaviors and in enclosed dog parks under the scrutiny of the other owners, I can be sure they will be conscious when their pet is the (politely) least responsive of the pack. Might I suggest you be the example next time you see this. Go stand near the owner, have your dog follow your direct, firm command and they will strike up a conversation with you about your approach. They learn, you make a friend and remove one of the frustrations from your play time in the park.

New Mums don't have the maturity and experience of Grandma, try to think of first time or new dog owners in a similar manner

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Paradox said..
Reading the act, you need to appeal to council ASAP, but that does not stay the order to remove or surrender the dog - to do that you need to apply to a local magistrates court for a stay. Do this ASAP as well.

184 Stay of operation of original decision
(1) A PID review application or general review application does not stay the original decision the subject of the application.[s 185] Animal Management (Cats and Dogs) Act 2008 Chapter 8 Reviews and appeals Part 1 Review of decisions 2008 Act No. 74 Page 109
(2) However, the applicant may, immediately after being given the information notice about the original decision, apply for a stay of the original decision to the Magistrates Court.
(3) The court may stay the original decision to secure the effectiveness of the review and a later appeal to the court.
(4) A stay may be granted on conditions the court considers appropriate

http://www.aiam.com.au/resources/files/proceedings/AIAM%202011/comonburke.pdf

This may also be of assistance...it provides guidance as to how council officers should determine "dangerous" Interestingly most state acts are very very vague on how this is to be done - I would use this to your advantage. I would address the dot points on the second last page positively to both council for the review and the magistrate for the stay.

Best of luck

Hi everyone, quick update. I have been granted a short term stay from BCC on the order until they can assess my application. In fairness, he was quite reasonable as the conversation only went as far as me questioning the excessive nature of the order but recognising and accepting responsibility and taking preventative measure on my boundary. It is far from finished and the support and guidance from this group has been nothing short of astounding. THANK YOU.

Para, you've gone above and beyond here mate. When this is done, my boy and I are coming down to Wellington Point because there is a bucket of prawns and beers with your name on it.

I will keep posting updates. I will put up some photos as well.

All good Coastar....and all in a days work...literally - lets me avoid work I am supposed to be doing...

Plus Rails provided the original act link, I just helped point out bits....

I hope all goes well, otherwise it might be a permanent move down to Wello ...we are Redlands City here and I suspect a much more relaxed approach to this sort of thing than BCC....