So we have one solution that will cost many billions; one solution that will kill the koalas and other animals that rely on gum trees; and one solution that will involve people paying to do something they don't want to do, because people from India are so into saving Australian bush rather than the people and nature of their own country......

Why don't you create the solution, since you know everything better than anyone else does and therefore must already be a Nobel prize winning multigozillinaire.

And when are you coming up to show us how easy it is to fix a BGA bloom? I'll call in the academics and Water NSW guys, and you can show us all how easy it is. This is a very simple little project to prove that your ideas work.

Yet, still no mention of a solar powered electric catamaran or dangerous contraption that is equally likely to kill the operator as to remove lantana?

Its easy to have a thought bubble but much harder to actually sit down and address the problems.

Why don't we just go to the logical conclusion and hand it all over to a dictator, and then we won't care if it burns or not as we won't be allowed to. That'll fix it!

All heil king Macro!

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FormulaNova said..
Its easy to have a thought bubble but much harder to actually sit down and address the problems.

Ok lets solve one problem at the time and invent something useful in 5 min. What it could be?
Lets save poor fishes dying in Murray river due to lack of oxygen. Air Compressors to aerate are expensive and complicated, need energy to power up. So lets invent cheap that works on nothing but Sun shine. Do following experiment: Take ordinary steel barrow 200 liters, paint in black. Fill with air, close it and put on full sun. It will heat itself to almost 100 celsius and air inside, can not expand then rise in pressure. Pipe this increased pressure air under water level to airstone to aerate our river or pond. Refill with new , cold air and repeat the cycle. Our compressor will work now at nothing but sun light or heat. Not sure about positive pressure at this distance 30-100 celsius but could be calculated FormulaOldnadKnownAlready.Now take engineer, make this idea into nice flat panel ,attach smart Maxel Devil to control valves and do on industrial scale required to save our rivers. Improve on design by additional movien surface - membrane or piston and have any air pressure you may need by multiplying internal pressure.Alternatively use this principle to pump water up. Fresh or even salt water deep inland. Relatively simple device located at sea side could deliver sea water worth 1GW of energy from 1 square km surface. Nobody possibly did a comprehensive study what pumping salty water inside dry country like Australia could do to climate and ecology. Possibly do the same what nature did to Bolivia already. Deposited valuable mineral resources to build most needed electric batteries for electric cars.

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Chris 249 said..
academics and Water NSW guys, and you can show us all how easy it is. This is a very simple little project to prove that your ideas work.

Just remember to remind them to mention a contributor of the idea at the footnotes of the scientific papers they will produce showing how to resolve ecological problem here.
Just joking. They will invent this independently and take all glory, as usual.

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Macroscien said..

Chris 249 said..
academics and Water NSW guys, and you can show us all how easy it is. This is a very simple little project to prove that your ideas work.

Just remember to remind them to mention a contributor of the idea at the footnotes of the scientific papers they will produce showing how to resolve ecological problem here.
Just joking. They will invent this independently and take all glory, as usual.

So you are still hanging onto the idea being a good one... but someone else will take the glory? That happens to me a lot! i invented the nintendo gameboy, but do you think anyone will give me credit or money for it?

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..
Its easy to have a thought bubble but much harder to actually sit down and address the problems.

Ok lets solve one problem at the time and invent something useful in 5 min. What it could be?
Lets save poor fishes dying in Murray river due to lack of oxygen. Air Compressors to aerate are expensive and complicated, need energy to power up. So lets invent cheap that works on nothing but Sun shine. Do following experiment: Take ordinary steel barrow 200 liters, paint in black. Fill with air, close it and put on full sun. It will heat itself to almost 100 celsius and air inside, can not expand then rise in pressure. Pipe this increased pressure air under water level to airstone to aerate our river or pond. Refill with new , cold air and repeat the cycle. Our compressor will work now at nothing but sun light or heat. Not sure about positive pressure at this distance 30-100 celsius but could be calculated FormulaOldnadKnownAlready.Now take engineer, make this idea into nice flat panel ,attach smart Maxel Devil to control valves and do on industrial scale required to save our rivers. Improve on design by additional movien surface - membrane or piston and have any air pressure you may need by multiplying internal pressure.Alternatively use this principle to pump water up. Fresh or even salt water deep inland. Relatively simple device located at sea side could deliver sea water worth 1GW of energy from 1 square km surface. Nobody possibly did a comprehensive study what pumping salty water inside dry country like Australia could do to climate and ecology. Possibly do the same what nature did to Bolivia already. Deposited valuable mineral resources to build most needed electric batteries for electric cars.

Please take photos of the proto-type and let me know. I have often thought about using solar energy to distil water and pump it at the same time and using that to irrigate places, but I could talk until the cows come home, but without doing anything about it means nothing.

Everyone has 'ideas', well at least a lot of people. Few push them into something practical. You are certainly not the first or last to come up with ideas and suggest other people do them.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..
Its easy to have a thought bubble but much harder to actually sit down and address the problems.

Ok lets solve one problem at the time and invent something useful in 5 min. What it could be?
Lets save poor fishes dying in Murray river due to lack of oxygen. Air Compressors to aerate are expensive and complicated, need energy to power up. So lets invent cheap that works on nothing but Sun shine. Do following experiment: Take ordinary steel barrow 200 liters, paint in black. Fill with air, close it and put on full sun. It will heat itself to almost 100 celsius and air inside, can not expand then rise in pressure. Pipe this increased pressure air under water level to airstone to aerate our river or pond. Refill with new , cold air and repeat the cycle. Our compressor will work now at nothing but sun light or heat. Not sure about positive pressure at this distance 30-100 celsius but could be calculated FormulaOldnadKnownAlready.Now take engineer, make this idea into nice flat panel ,attach smart Maxel Devil to control valves and do on industrial scale required to save our rivers. Improve on design by additional movien surface - membrane or piston and have any air pressure you may need by multiplying internal pressure.Alternatively use this principle to pump water up. Fresh or even salt water deep inland. Relatively simple device located at sea side could deliver sea water worth 1GW of energy from 1 square km surface. Nobody possibly did a comprehensive study what pumping salty water inside dry country like Australia could do to climate and ecology. Possibly do the same what nature did to Bolivia already. Deposited valuable mineral resources to build most needed electric batteries for electric cars.

Right.... so plenty of people have been trying to save the Murray River for years, and Macro is such a God that he is going to do in 5 minutes what scores of other people couldn't do in decades. Oh my god........

Do you actually understand that the "Maxel Devil", properly known as Maxwell's Demon, is nothing but a philosophical argument?

So - why don't you just go out and save the Murray by getting off your ass and building your device, since it's so simple? You reckon you know how to save the rivers and you couldn't be bothered? Really?

I've been looking at river aerators today. They cost about $10,000 each. If you reckon you can make them with a 200l steel drum, a pipe and an air stone you'll make an absolute fortune. So - get out there and do it. This will be really, really easy for a superhuman being like you, and you'll become a multi-millionaire very quickly. So what are you waiting for?

I think everyone's ignoring the key problem - we want to live near bush in fixed abodes but then point the finger when it all goes up in smoke.....

Like, derr......Australia burns in dry windy heat.

Controlled burning, bushfire construction ratings, high tech save the world blabbering blah blah in the end, it all burns.

Aboriginal Australians were far smarter. When a fire started up, they went walkabout and came back a few years later when it was all lush green again.

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Chris 249 said..

This will be really, really easy for a superhuman being like you, and you'll become a multi-millionaire very quickly. So what are you waiting for?

Do you know that inventor that whole world owe the most , died in ultimate poverty , abandoned and forgotten by everybody.Yes, Nikola Tesla invented alternating current and machines that use it propel whole modern world today. My faith may be similar and money are not my concern. If you find any of my ideas interesting , take it ,use it for free.

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holy guacamole said..
Aboriginal Australians were far smarter. When a fire started up, they went walkabout and came back a few years later when it was all lush green again.

Too late for gypsy life style. We could not build houses on wheel and escape from fires every time. Beside there is also miss understanding of aboriginal culture. They could afford to burn half of the country and escape to the other one because population density wasn't that great.Even today the main problem Australia face is lack of population to take care about this massive land.If we spit whole country into parcells no bigger then 1 to 10 ha for every family , then every one piece can be manicured to perfection like Glyn's lawn. But we don't want to allow immigration at such level, even so we rather kept all newcomers in monster cities instead disperse wisely around the country. New immigrant do not help to manage outback australia but only contribute to gridlocks in already overpopulated cites. Burning is not a sustainable solution for the future. Look at those poor countries the do burning - then smoke affecting their maga cites.If you do burn every single leaf that will drop from the tree, then we will have worse smog problem that China on worst day.So we need to work smart and use modern technology, not primitive burning and manual labour.

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FormulaNova said..

but without doing anything about it means nothing.

Wrong again. You haven't been to my garage/ workshop. You are lucky one. Just seeing everything and amount of ongoing projects will strike you stroke instantly.But can't do everything by myself. Agree, electric catamaran still on back burner but electric tractor is on and going strong. Modified from brand new Chinese 18HP diesel to silent brushless electric 48V, lithium batteries. You may buy similar in 5 years from now at Bunnings, because it is so obvious, one may say again. But I can not afford to wait so I build one already. The plan is now to equip this one with ROPS and semi flexible solar panel on top , so tractor could run whole day on the farm, for free. Tested power consumption while towing or moving is about 1000 watts ( of10 kw power available) so proposed panel will allow for 50% duty cycle.
My farm collection
electric ATV 60V 1000W


ATV 80V 20kW





tractor 48v 10kw. electric motor used for traction / moving and kept diesel for energy hungry attachments - like tiler or mulcher.
One of next project in pipeline is converting this mini digger of mine into completely electric. considering now my options: if use brushless motor to power hydraulic pump or rather use electric actuators in first place instead of hydraulic rams (?)



electric stacker conversion 12/240V 1 tone




electric chain block 3 tone



electric forklift 72v 2 tonne
electric auger , post hole digger 1200W 240v




and that one hopefully arrive by Christmas electric chainsaw 36v

Yeah, but there is nothing for the Murray-Darling or the little fishies... Where are those projects? Replacing an internal combustion motor with an electric motor is hardly rocket science these days with the availability of good battery packs, battery managers, and electric motor controllers. For skateboars or for cars, they are pretty easy to get.

On the other hand, I would be impressed if you designed and built the circuits yourself, but you didn't. You just plugged together off the shelf parts together.

Good luck with replacing those hydraulic rams with electric actuators. I have never ever looked at them, but I doubt you can get ones that are as fast or cheap as hydraulic rams. The big question for a lot of these things would have to be of course, "why?". Not everyone wants to trade a simple diesel engine that is cheap to buy fuel for with an electric motor and batteries.

I think a lot of people like Tesla, just because he was the underdog. Do you really think he invented AC current?

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

but without doing anything about it means nothing.

Wrong again. You haven't been to my garage/ workshop. You are lucky one. Just seeing everything and amount of ongoing projects will strike you stroke instantly.But can't do everything by myself. Agree, electric catamaran still on back burner but electric tractor is on and going strong. Modified from brand new Chinese 18HP diesel to silent brushless electric 48V, lithium batteries. You may buy similar in 5 years from now at Bunnings, because it is so obvious, one may say again. But I can not afford to wait so I build one already. The plan is now to equip this one with ROPS and semi flexible solar panel on top , so tractor could run whole day on the farm, for free. Tested power consumption while towing or moving is about 1000 watts ( of10 kw power available) so proposed panel will allow for 50% duty cycle.
My farm collection
electric ATV 60V 1000W


ATV 80V 20kW





tractor 48v 10kw. electric motor used for traction / moving and kept diesel for energy hungry attachments - like tiler or mulcher.
One of next project in pipeline is converting this mini digger of mine into completely electric. considering now my options: if use brushless motor to power hydraulic pump or rather use electric actuators in first place instead of hydraulic rams (?)



electric stacker conversion 12/240V 1 tone




electric chain block 3 tone



electric forklift 72v 2 tonne
electric auger , post hole digger 1200W 240v




and that one hopefully arrive by Christmas electric chainsaw 36v

Well done, like you I have been slowly replacing my IC motors on my equipment with battery powered and have been doing so for nearly 10 years. I like your way of thinking as, well keep up the good work.
You are a someone that does something and achieves even if its small projects but you try to get things done. Many people are just talkers who try to tell you how smart they are rather than getting their hands dirty.

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Hardcarve1 said..

Well done, like you I have been slowly replacing my IC motors on my equipment with battery powered and have been doing so for nearly 10 years. I like your way of thinking as, well keep up the good work.
You are a someone that does something and achieves even if its small projects but you try to get things done. Many people are just talkers who try to tell you how smart they are rather than getting their hands dirty.

In this case, Macro is the talker telling everyone how smart he is, and it's the people he is sneering at who are out there getting their hands dirty fighting or preparing for fires and trying to save the rivers.

By the way, Macro, surely you are aware that high water temperatures are one of the major causes of fish kills? How is your plan of pumping air at boiling temperature into the rivers going to affect that little problem? And aerators only work for an area about the size of a tennis court, so your brilliant idea that others are too stupid to have come up with is just going to need about 80,000 units for the Darling alone.

BTW electric vehicles have been around for over 100 years and people have been converting IC cars to battery power for many years. www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/mr-george-glasson-of-blakehurst-with-his-electric-car-it-news-photo/1079468688

It's hardly ground breaking stuff these days.

Oh yes, and if "money is not my concern" as you say then why do you have your hand out, asking the government to give you some?
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/General-Discussion/Chat/Drought-relief-?page=1

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Chris 249 said..
BTW electric vehicles have been around for over 100 years and people have been converting IC cars to battery power for many years. www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/mr-george-glasson-of-blakehurst-with-his-electric-car-it-news-photo/1079468688

It's hardly ground breaking stuff these days.

I guess Mr George Glasson of Blakehurst just bought his stuff from ebay or aliexpress? No, he would have actually had to do some significant work. No wonder it took him three years.

I wonder if Macro owns a lathe? I am sure back in days gone past you had to make a lot of your own parts, but now, you can probably buy a lot of it in.

Is converting to electric innovation anymore? I think it was in the 70's when people suddenly had the need to do it.

A significant change has been the introduction of lithium battery technologies which have made the range problem less of a problem.

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Chris 249 said..

size of a tennis court, so your brilliant idea that others are too stupid to have come up with is just going to need about 80,000 units for the Darling alone.

Fishes rarely play tennis, so analogy is useless. Better way will be calculating oxygen requirement per fish, than multiplying by amount in the river. Observation about high temperature killing fish is right. By aerating river at the very bottom we will mix stagnant layers, than you will find that suddenly not whole water in the river is a hot. Beside fish is not stupid and if could find a cozy place will gather rather there.
We could do experiment and place aerators at 1 km distance along the river and observe effects on water quality and health of plants and animals living there.

Typical air compressor is designed to provide high pressure. But we don't need more then 5 meters head/ depth ( 0.5 bar) to aerate our river properly. So not being purchase manager for council I could rather choose turbine or centrifugal air compressor that will last longer and provide more air per bucket of electricity used.

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Macroscien said..

holy guacamole said..
Aboriginal Australians were far smarter. When a fire started up, they went walkabout and came back a few years later when it was all lush green again.

Too late for gypsy life style. We could not build houses on wheel and escape from fires every time. Beside there is also miss understanding of aboriginal culture. They could afford to burn half of the country and escape to the other one because population density wasn't that great.Even today the main problem Australia face is lack of population to take care about this massive land.If we spit whole country into parcells no bigger then 1 to 10 ha for every family , then every one piece can be manicured to perfection like Glyn's lawn. But we don't want to allow immigration at such level, even so we rather kept all newcomers in monster cities instead disperse wisely around the country. New immigrant do not help to manage outback australia but only contribute to gridlocks in already overpopulated cites. Burning is not a sustainable solution for the future. Look at those poor countries the do burning - then smoke affecting their maga cites.If you do burn every single leaf that will drop from the tree, then we will have worse smog problem that China on worst day.So we need to work smart and use modern technology, not primitive burning and manual labour.

I wasn't suggesting we become nomadic, simply that we get real about where we chose to live and the risks associated with that.

Whining about a lack of comprehensive hazard reduction isn't a solution to the key issue - it's a choice to live in a high fire risk area in most cases.

Kind of like surfing on sunrise or near a whale carcass.

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holy guacamole said..

Whining about a lack of comprehensive hazard reduction isn't a solution to the key issue - it's a choice to live in a high fire risk area in most cases.

Agree, but that doesn't mean that can not ever be done safely. We are going to occupy Moon and Mars soon after. Challenges are much bigger, then bushland. I saw on ABC news clip about a bloke that build a fireproof bunker beside his home. There ae saying that Fire Service doesn't advice the move? I don't understand why? Shouldn't we encourage everybody to build a safe shelter, even inground, underground? OK should be really safe and prevent smoke to come in, but with proper plans, supervision, control, etc we could save a lot of lives.I am considering such on my own farm now. I don't need something extreme, but proper 10 x 3 meters shelter with all concrete walls and roof should be sufficient to save most of the items and people, just in case.
So what is opinion here on SB ?
To build or not to build?
www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-12/lionel-buckett-fire-bunker-blue-mountains-nsw-fires/11697090

Build! I think its a good idea, but I am sure the government has some reason for saying no. They probably want to reduce the risk caused by people risking it and staying in their shelter and dying or causing someone else to risk their life rescuing them.

I think you could make a bushfire panic room that was also useful for storage.

Just make sure you read up on it as sometimes there are things that fail when you wouldn't expect it. Not that I know what they are.

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Foghorn said..
Kind of like surfing on sunrise or near a whale carcass.

Sort of yes. Similar minded people also think culling sharks works. Oh sheet, did I mention shark culling?

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Macroscien said..

Chris 249 said..

size of a tennis court, so your brilliant idea that others are too stupid to have come up with is just going to need about 80,000 units for the Darling alone.

Fishes rarely play tennis, so analogy is useless. Better way will be calculating oxygen requirement per fish, than multiplying by amount in the river. Observation about high temperature killing fish is right. By aerating river at the very bottom we will mix stagnant layers, than you will find that suddenly not whole water in the river is a hot. Beside fish is not stupid and if could find a cozy place will gather rather there.
We could do experiment and place aerators at 1 km distance along the river and observe effects on water quality and health of plants and animals living there.

Typical air compressor is designed to provide high pressure. But we don't need more then 5 meters head/ depth ( 0.5 bar) to aerate our river properly. So not being purchase manager for council I could rather choose turbine or centrifugal air compressor that will last longer and provide more air per bucket of electricity used.

There is no reason for your inference that "purchase (sic) manager for council" are so stupid that they would choose a "typical air compressor" to aerate rivers. Despite your conviction that you are a genius and everyone else is a moron, the people who buy and design river aerators are NOT fools, as you think they are. They have already chosen other options and use things like solar powered aerators.

The analogy of a tennis court (which isn't my idea) is not useless - it is pretty simple and gives both a visualisation of an area and factual information about its dimensions.

Do you actually think that the idea of doing an experiment by putting aerators into a river is something new? Do you really think that other people are so foolish that they have not been doing experiments of that type for decades?

If you put air at 100 degrees into a river, you will increase the temperature of that river - a river which is normally under stress largely BECAUSE of excessive temperatures. You are therefore making a major problem even worse. The deep holes you want fish to shelter in are often rare or non-existent and they are also often anoxic, so the fish moving away from your over-heated water into such holes will die. All of this stuff is information that is available to anyone who is prepared to respect other people and do some research, instead of assuming that they are already know everything.

And finally, the first sentence of this whole thread is complete and utter bull****. You said "I am listening to recent news about bushfires and the most surprise me how surprised all our government agencies are."

It is a lie to say that all government agencies were surprised by the current bushfires. The NSW RFS , for example, officially started the bushfire season for many areas in AUGUST, two months early. They have been warning about the dangers for years - it is a complete and utter vicious lie to say that they were surprised. The Bushfire and Natural Hazards Cooperative Research Centre warned in August that it would be a bad season. (www.bnhcrc.com.au/hazardnotes/63) Again, it is a LIE to claim that they were surprised. Other state authorities also warned that it would be a very bad season, way back in August; www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/aug/28/bushfire-season-australia-warned-to-prepare-early-amid-grim-outlook Again, your claim "all our government agencies" were surprised is a LIE, and a disrepectful lie.

Oh, and if you don't like my strong language then you should not imply or claim that fire departments and others are fools, as you repeatedly do. I'll give you respect when you give others respect.

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Chris 249 said..
It is a lie to say that all government agencies were surprised by the current bushfires. The NSW RFS , for example, officially started the bushfire season for many areas in AUGUST, two months early. They have been warning about the dangers for years - it is a complete and utter vicious lie to say that they were surprised. The Bushfire and Natural Hazards Cooperative Research Centre warned in August that it would be a bad season.

I wonder if this sort of suggestion that people were caught out, is a political defense or just a great news headline?

Can you imagine any current politician happily standing up and saying 'we stuffed up and ignored the warnings from our teams'?

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FormulaNova said.....Can you imagine any current politician happily standing up and saying 'we stuffed up and ignored the warnings from our teams'?

Worse, some politicians are going so far as to claim that to even dare mention the impact of prolonged drought associated with climate change are all "WOKE inner city leftie lunatics".

Well, that makes many professional firefighters, township mayors and farmers lunatics.

Who are the real lunatics then?

Around here in New England, the diggers seem to be going flat out building new dams on farms; there is about one per km within 200m of the road into town, because people think the climate has changed and rainfall will be less reliable. The busiest and most harassed man in town for ages has been the guy with the biggest irrigation shop, particularly at the moment, for the same reason. 19mm fire hose is out of stock on most of the east coast. The farmers - the ones who are out there every day and who have long records of rainfall, temperature etc - are saying that the climate has changed and they are putting their money on it.

It's the suburban Libs who are denying climate change, because they can just turn up the air conditioning and a hose.

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FormulaNova said..

Chris 249 said..
It is a lie to say that all government agencies were surprised by the current bushfires. The NSW RFS , for example, officially started the bushfire season for many areas in AUGUST, two months early. They have been warning about the dangers for years - it is a complete and utter vicious lie to say that they were surprised. The Bushfire and Natural Hazards Cooperative Research Centre warned in August that it would be a bad season.

I wonder if this sort of suggestion that people were caught out, is a political defense or just a great news headline?

Can you imagine any current politician happily standing up and saying 'we stuffed up and ignored the warnings from our teams'?

Dunno if it's relevant, but I was reading the report into the response to the 2003 Canberra fires the other day. It showed what can happen when people don't jump into action - and of course if they had warned people earlier and taken action earlier, they would probably have been accused of scare mongering. On one hand pollies piss me off, but on the other hand they are damned either way and that's not fair or constructive.

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Chris 249 said..
The farmers - the ones who are out there every day and who have long records of rainfall, temperature etc - are saying that the climate has changed and they are putting their money on it.

I agree that these people should know better than me, as they are actually there, and see the effects of lack of rainfall.

I am also a bit of a skeptic in that i think Australia has such a variety of weather patterns, and even if this is an extreme event, it doesn't necessarily mean it won't end up in a couple of wet years a little down the track.

Human nature being what it is, a drought and everyone talking about climate change could convince anyone that its the result of climate change, so does it mean a lot?

Of course, I am also 100% behind the idea that we should assume that climate change is happening and reduce our emissions of carbon and push for more renewables.

Investing in renewable energy isn't just about the climate, it's more about sound economic sustainability and opportunity.

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holy guacamole said..
Investing in renewable energy isn't just about the climate, it's more about sound economic sustainability and opportunity.

Interestingly we don't need now fight too much with corporate business to install solar and wind, because investment in renewable already means good sustainable business. Next is coming with progress on high temperature concentrated solar that will allow us to bake/manufacture steel and cement.But even if we switch the whole economy to the renewable fact remains that Australia is the dryest continent on Earth.

www.businessinsider.com.au/solar-power-heliogen-bill-gates-2019-11?fbclid=IwAR0_ys1e_V-Apu1yos5hdulYHcUB53WFveQit7Kx7k3aHJx1zYVxkAFNIv0&r=US&IR=T
So since renewable energy already makes a good business case, there is similarly needed to capture, manufacture store water in Australia.
If storage water in, lakes, dams, pumping hydro will be associated with making money one day we could see run into this sort of infrastructure.
But well, more rain doesn't solve Australia bushfires may actually make things worse.

At this temperature here vegetations will grow like crazy when additional rain will fall. Unless land is commercially utilized that means only storage, accumulation of additional fuel.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundrop_Farms