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Kamikuza said...
No one said Jimny yet?

ewwwwwwww, get a propa 'zook.


LJ50 all the way!

nothin' like the awesomeness of Castrol R fumes and that ring'ding sound


stephen

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Ian K said...

Mark _australia said...

GreenPat said...

Mark _australia said...
any real 4WD will do it just fine with open centres.

What are these centre diffs of which you speak? None of that fancy-shmancy trickery on the 1982 Hilux. Same power to the front and back axle regardless. Just don't drive it in 4x on the blacktop, the tyres will work against each other and wear out quick smart, plus you'll struggle to shift out of 4x to 2x with all the torsion in the drive shaft (reverse a little can help).

I was talking about diff centres, not centre diffs.

Your Hilux still has open (not LSD or locked) diff centres so still suffers from the wheel in the sky = no forward motion.

Shouldn't the wheel by wheel electronic braking of new-age stability control systems soon be fitted to all 4wds and make these fancy diff centres obsolete?
( Then again if the manufacturers of 4wds got serious about hub electric motors they could do away with diffs altogether.)

No, cos
(1) the best thing for offroad is locked diffs all the way, no slip at all. Of course they need to work on road to, so diffs are normal open centres or LSD's and serious 4WD crew replace them with an airlocker.
But like I said it is not needed for just beach driving

and
(2) all the ESC / traction control stuff is great - till you hit sand. In deep sand momentum is important, even if you are spinning wheels. Especially in a climb.
All the new fangled sh!t just gets you bogged - as when you give it a bit of loud pedal, wheels spin and in response the system brakes the wheel, which is the total opposite to what one wants on sand.

To get down the beach a real fourby with a transfer case (not an AWD) and normal tyres (let down) and clearance, is all one needs. An AWD is fine as long as it has a centre diff lock.

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Mark _australia said...

Ian K said...

Mark _australia said...

GreenPat said...

Mark _australia said...
any real 4WD will do it just fine with open centres.

What are these centre diffs of which you speak? None of that fancy-shmancy trickery on the 1982 Hilux. Same power to the front and back axle regardless. Just don't drive it in 4x on the blacktop, the tyres will work against each other and wear out quick smart, plus you'll struggle to shift out of 4x to 2x with all the torsion in the drive shaft (reverse a little can help).

I was talking about diff centres, not centre diffs.

Your Hilux still has open (not LSD or locked) diff centres so still suffers from the wheel in the sky = no forward motion.

Shouldn't the wheel by wheel electronic braking of new-age stability control systems soon be fitted to all 4wds and make these fancy diff centres obsolete?
( Then again if the manufacturers of 4wds got serious about hub electric motors they could do away with diffs altogether.)

No, cos
(1) the best thing for offroad is locked diffs all the way, no slip at all. Of course they need to work on road to, so diffs are normal open centres or LSD's and serious 4WD crew replace them with an airlocker.
But like I said it is not needed for just beach driving

and
(2) all the ESC / traction control stuff is great - till you hit sand. In deep sand momentum is important, even if you are spinning wheels. Especially in a climb.
All the new fangled sh!t just gets you bogged - as when you give it a bit of loud pedal, wheels spin and in response the system brakes the wheel, which is the total opposite to what one wants on sand.

To get down the beach a real fourby with a transfer case (not an AWD) and normal tyres (let down) and clearance, is all one needs. An AWD is fine as long as it has a centre diff lock.

I can't think of anything other than a sand hill where wheel spin rather than traction is important? Maybe you should term it "jet propulsion" rather than "momentum". Throw sand backwards to get push up the hill? But that's specialised stuff, if you're right into that sport fair enough, but you won't have the time or money left to windsurf.



Back in the day traction was the go even in sand, the best sand tires had fine tread, and were also useful on bitumen.

It is possible to provide the function of a fully locked system with electronic stability control. You just tweak the electronics so all wheels are braked to the rate of the slowest wheel. This allows all 4 to spin if you wish. The only disadvantage of using brakes to keep all wheels spinning at the same rate is that power lost as brake friction. But 4wds have heaps of power these days so for the odd occasion that it's needed, not a problem.

Part of the modern 4wd's undoing is the requirement that they be reasonable on road. They use heavy stabiliser bars so they don't lean in corners. Offroad this exacerbates the diagonal wheel unloading. I recall a story about a country town 4wd show. The Ford dealer, with not much to contribute, took a falcon ute, had the mechanic weld up the rear diff, disconnected the stabiliser bars and left the local Nissan dealer in the bushes. (He claimed this was Ford's inspiration to produce the Falcon RTV)

Mercedes unimog they make their own tracks.ultimate 4 wd.

^^^ I think you missed my point about traction control. In sand, momentum is number one and any degree of braking will do more harm than good. In all 4WD situations you want traction and wheelspin is bad. In sand, wheelspin is a lesser evil than losing momentum so in reality in deep sand you always have some degree of wheelspin to maintain momentum.
Thus the old fourbies do just as good, and usually better, than all the new ones with electronic aids. Unless, as you said, the electronics incorporate a different kind of program for sand. That is great but the majority of new fourbies don't have that, their traction control does is thing all the time and buggers you up on sand.

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Mark _australia said...
^^^ I think you missed my point about traction control. In sand, momentum is number one and any degree of braking will do more harm than good. In all 4WD situations you want traction and wheelspin is bad. In sand, wheelspin is a lesser evil than losing momentum so in reality in deep sand you always have some degree of wheelspin to maintain momentum.
Thus the old fourbies do just as good, and usually better, than all the new ones with electronic aids. Unless, as you said, the electronics incorporate a different kind of program for sand. That is great but the majority of new fourbies don't have that, their traction control does is thing all the time and buggers you up on sand.

Sounds like the traction control cuts engine power when you don't want it? If traction control was limited to the braking of the fastest 3 wheels and never the throttle, you'd be away.

I reckon patrol utes are the go, (if you want a bigger ute) and much more comfy to drive on road than a cruiser ute.
Sure, if its a farm ute or station basher land cruisers are tougher, but for a everyday ute these are unbeatable. (And I don't work for Nissan)
I've had this one for ten years and 200000 ks and its still going strong, no fancy crap that can go wrong 200 ks from town.
Does burnouts too!

Thought l would throw my 2 cents in a lot of people buy luxury fourbys for around town but when they take them offround (majority) they then think this vehicle will go anywhere because of all gadgets fitted on it & most usually run in to some kind of trouble whether vehicle error or human error.the point that l am getting at is its usually the driver's fault. Its takes a lot of driving skill to master a 4 w.d. off the Beaten Track.

patrol hilux or landcruizer. Cant believe old pommie ****s are posting discovery's? How about discover a part in the middle of bumb****. hahah
Who the **** would bother with a landrover? pommie hunk of ****. Bt50 a better option
Mercedies? 400km from no where and need a fuel filter;;;;;


Nissan Toyota or Isuzu proven. discoveries dont go were Toyota or Nissan go.

A stock series 1 or 2 Disco, or a Classic Rangie (same chassis and running gear) for that matter will eat a similar era stock Cruiser or Patrol in the off road capability stakes. Far better articulation and when your wheels are on the ground you get further, simple as that. And that's coming from someone who's owned all of the above.

As good as they are in the dirt my last Disco cured me of roveritis, three gearbox rebuilds, water pump, clutch and a cracked head in under two years. I've gone back to a Troll, strongest drivetrain on the market, bulletproof donk and reliable. Cruisers and Patrols will get anywhere a Rover will but they do it with brute force as opposed to flex and finesse.

If it's just a bit of beach work and the odd track you'll be tackling then pretty much anything will do the job. Tritons represent good value, so does the Paj, their 10 year warranty doesn't hurt either. Whichever you end up with do your research beforehand, there's lots of forums out there to browse. One of the first things you should do with just about any crd diesel is an egr block, better still get one that has had it done early in its working life.

the best 4wd is one you dont have to pay for, especially if you are driving it on the beach.
failing that you can get a new triton dual cab for 29 000 (2k cash back) with the best warranty in the industry and fixed price servicings.
People will say they are a bit older and not as dood as some of the other utes, but they also start at minimum 10k more. And they are still pretty good.

Selling my jeep jk 4 door less than 50k on clock , lift kit, extended fuel tank, hot water system, roof rack, towbar with electronic braking , setup for dual betteries in back .

In low gear electronic stabalizer doesnt work, but I have found on sand that its not always been a negative, as when it kicks in it does act like a diff lock in some ways as it will lock the slipping wheel and then lock other wheel and release, makes the car rock side by side as its working but seems to work for moving forward in soft sand. The jeeps been great on the sand and have taken the jayco dove up sand dunes to remote beach sites, only used the warn winch once to get out of trouble and that was pulling the jayco up a 80 meter long bendy sand dune day after newyears and 42 degree when dozen of cars had driven over it. Winched first 40 meters then snatched strapped remaining

http://carsales.mobi/cars/details/2010-jeep-wrangler-unlimited-sport-jk/SSE-AD-2606725

Land cruisers

Yes, you pay for the name, but that is for a reason, they're built to a higher spec than the price point 4wds of other brands.

They are designed for longevity. My 300K 100 series drives like a new car, no rattles etc.

A well maintained Cruiser will give you great service in most terrain, and get you back.

If you're towing, the HDJ100 turbo diesel has real grunt.

And if you've got some spare cash (or a credit card), it goes even better. Safari HO chip, Safari 'cooler, Beaudesert pipe. If you can't find a Safari (HO) chip, Unichip is doing good things now I hear.

Forget the chips, TD with gas is magic. More power than chipping it, burns cleaner and more range.
If I had the $$ it would be a TD van of some description with gas as a daily driver/ windsurf vehicle and a troopie TD with gas for big trips out of the way.

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Mark _australia said...
Forget the chips, TD with gas is magic. More power than chipping it, burns cleaner and more range.

one of the diesel chip performance companies has developed a petrol injection system to make diesels run better.

From what I recall, it is even better than diesel + gas.


stephen

[but I still reckon super + Castrol R is better]

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Mark _australia said...

I was talking about diff centres, not centre diffs.

Your Hilux still has open (not LSD or locked) diff centres so still suffers from the wheel in the sky = no forward motion.

Struth, looks like my attempt at sarcasm/humour was lost twice.

Good point though, I was thinking about centre diffs, not diff centres. I certainly did have open diff centres. Still managed not to get bogged though.

Just get a diesel triton glx for the money, I chucked a back canopy so i could lock up my kite gear and a hand turfer wincha bullbar and tinted windows.
Great ute i have done 75000 klms in it and have only got bogged once in mud, sand driving not a problem