Hey All

Was just thinking this morning about the Seabreeze forums, which made me start thinking about the lack of discussion online, in regards to the Marine Industry in Australia i.e.. Professional Masters,Officers,Crew working on Australian flagged commercial vessels (Ferries,Tugs,Ships,Charter Vessels etc) Is there anyone else on here in the industry, as would be interested to discuss current employment market and industry discussion (yes 457 visa discussion ).

Cheers

SH

Hi SH,

I'm a Class 1 Engineer. I'm currently in the offshore. Work has dried up heaps. There are still some 457s getting around that have been left over from the boom. They are currently protected by Australian workplace laws. There are about 200 Aus engineers on the beach. Was talking to the IRs this morning and they have about 450 on the data base. I'm not sure how many are looking for a job in the guild.

Did you hear about rio tinto putting in an application for continuous voyage permits to take bauxite from the NT to Gladstone?

Our shipping is in a mess ATM.

Remo

One thing the USA did do right is set up the "Jones Act" in 1920............

When this post goes missing, look in the Heavy Weather section
I'm not a marine professional so can't comment on that. But considering Seabreezes intended nature, I would think there are many marine professionals on this website but just don't talk shop much. I don't frequent my industries 'best known' forum and certainly never post on it. I keep myself up to date by official means and when I'm at home I like to escape the industry/work. I come here to Seabreeze instead.

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Toph said..
When this post goes missing, look in the Heavy Weather section
I'm not a marine professional so can't comment on that. But considering Seabreezes intended nature, I would think there are many marine professionals on this website but just don't talk shop much. I don't frequent my industries 'best known' forum and certainly never post on it. I keep myself up to date by official means and when I'm at home I like to escape the industry/work. I come here to Seabreeze instead.

Yes I know what you mean.

The marine industry is very small in Aus. Not many people are aware of what goes on. I think that it would be good to let people know what goes on around the coast. Not just a job thing, the worst thing I see from 457s is the lack of respect for the environment. It is something that the public should be made aware of.

Remo, couldn't have said it better myself.

Toph - I understand what you're saying, and as Remo has said, it is an extremely small industry, however, there isn't currently a platform to discuss peer-to-peer amongst ourselves, hence why I thought perhaps Seabreeze may be a good platform as well as to bring in people who are looking to break into the industry, as again, there isn't a hell of a lot of info for any young people looking for a start.

Ok, so back to the current situ. Im a Master, have been for over 10 years, as well as this, I work managing a coastal shipping company, to say the market is weak, is an understatement. Unfortunately, what is happening (Trust me, I see this every day reflected in freight rates), is that the cost of operating an Aussie flagged vessel, in comparison to the market rates are just not there, as well as are not subsidised what soever by the govt (where as rail and road are)

We are currently in the process of trying to come up with a solution to employ Aussie seafarers, to trade between Aus ports, however, it comes with its own set of hurdles.

In rgds to the 457 saga, here is the latest..have a look who is the 'regulating body'....

www.sbs.com.au/language/english/want-to-migrate-to-australia-2016-17-skilled-occupations-list-sol-announced_3?cid=trendi

Sorry guys, I think I was misunderstood

I wasn't referring to Seabreeze not being the appropriate forum, but just offering a plausible explaination to why it's not often discussed here.

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captsdh said..
<snip>

In rgds to the 457 saga, here is the latest..have a look who is the 'regulating body'....

www.sbs.com.au/language/english/want-to-migrate-to-australia-2016-17-skilled-occupations-list-sol-announced_3?cid=trendi

What's the problem, 457s are supposed to be paid the same as locals and are not meant to be required if there are locals able to do the same job.... Oh sorry, I was being extremely sarcastic.

457 visas are fine if there really is a skills shortage, but if they are a means for someone to employ someone cheaper and keep them quiet by the potential of having to leave the country within weeks if they lose their job, then they are a blight on Australia. They destroy industries in the long term and discourage people training locals.

It was telling when there were some political party reforms/attempts to increase the amount of time that a 457 could find another job before having to leave the country. I.e. they were trying to make it possible for a 457 to realistically get another job if their current employer was taking liberties. What do you know, the other political party returned to the previous rules, which pretty much prevents them from rocking the boat if they were underpaid or mistreated. I think that tells you the real reason some people want (cheap and weak) 457 workers.

Its a shame to hear that this is affecting other industries now. You would hope that someone in government pays attention to jobs and Australian employees and figures out that there is no need for more 457s, but it seems not.

Now that the mining boom is over, we will see more of this I think.

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FormulaNova said..

captsdh said..
<snip>

In rgds to the 457 saga, here is the latest..have a look who is the 'regulating body'....

www.sbs.com.au/language/english/want-to-migrate-to-australia-2016-17-skilled-occupations-list-sol-announced_3?cid=trendi

What's the problem, 457s are supposed to be paid the same as locals and are not meant to be required if there are locals able to do the same job.... Oh sorry, I was being extremely sarcastic.

457 visas are fine if there really is a skills shortage, but if they are a means for someone to employ someone cheaper and keep them quiet by the potential of having to leave the country within weeks if they lose their job, then they are a blight on Australia. They destroy industries in the long term and discourage people training locals.

It was telling when there were some political party reforms/attempts to increase the amount of time that a 457 could find another job before having to leave the country. I.e. they were trying to make it possible for a 457 to realistically get another job if their current employer was taking liberties. What do you know, the other political party returned to the previous rules, which pretty much prevents them from rocking the boat if they were underpaid or mistreated. I think that tells you the real reason some people want (cheap and weak) 457 workers.

Its a shame to hear that this is affecting other industries now. You would hope that someone in government pays attention to jobs and Australian employees and figures out that there is no need for more 457s, but it seems not.

Now that the mining boom is over, we will see more of this I think.

Last time I looked at the list of jobs applicable to the 457 visa, it covered almost every job you could imagine.

I paid off from the Navy in 1973 as an Engine Room Artificer 2nd class, ie fully qualified Fitter and Machinist and qualified to Navy standards as a Marine Engineer (Diesel).

I went straight to the Port Office in Brisbane, sat the exam for Coastal Marine Engine Driver Class I (now MED I USL Code) and passed with flying colours. I was also granted a Power House Engine Driver's Certificate by the Dept of Trades.

Then I went to the Australian Institute of Marine and Power Engineers (the engineers "union"), joined and enquired about jobs on ships. They said I would have to sit the exams for Part A and Part B of the Marine Engineer's exams to qualify for foreign going ships. That would require 6 months of college for which I was not up to it financially or mentally.

They then said when I had done that there were no jobs to be had as Australian Shipping was in contraction, and this was 1973. So I went to the Whitsundays and worked on 100 ft tourist vessels. That was fun while it lasted but I really was not going anywhere.

I could have gone to South Africa and got a job on ships straight away but instead I went to New Zealand and made a pile of money as a pipeline welder for two years.

On returning to Aus I worked on tourist boats again and eventually got my Master V.

captsdh , Running a coastal shipping company in Qld you would be well aware of the fiascoes and mass walkouts that have happened with the various shipping companies based in Cairns over the last 15 or 20 years. It is a tough game and as you are saying the budget for this game is very tight.

Apart from the 457 visa debacle there is the fact that there is a shipload dive instructors and kitchen bitches running around with Master V tickets who really do not have the depth of experience for that position. This has devalued the qualification greatly.

Commercial Shipping is a great game by which I mean cargo carriers not people carriers. The neatest operation I have seen lately is the Island Trader which sails out of Port Macquarie to supply Lord Howe Island. I reckon you would have a hard time persuading any of those guys to quit their job.

Without naming names can you tell us a bit about the operation you are running??

Thats a really interesting story cisco. And you are very much correct with the statement that they are giving out Master Class 5 tickets these days (or were when there was a shortage during minding boom), and what has happened, is the level of evaluation and sea time requirements have lowered also dramatically, with the introduction of task book based evaluation and competency based training, what has have seen (as you have also), as a huge amount of under qualified "Masters", which have gained their seatime from doing bubble watch on dive boats, or care taking a snorkelling platform..Im only a relatively young bloke, but when I started in the industry when I was 15, the consensus was that you do your time, almost like an apprentice, study hard and really only the cream of the crop got work as Masters..as I came up through the industry, working on the reef myself as well as in oil/gas industry, you do see the cowboys that weasel their way into positions, but as my first message states, we are in a very small industry, and (most) cowboys do not last long..

Master 5 fish and trade med 2 stcw95 advanced rigger fitter machinist with cert 4 hydraulics....... Im on the mines we do some stuff for the submarines laser alignment etc and some on boats but mainly mines.
There is no money in anything right now due to 457 laws a lot of my work is in png india mongolia etc etc bad time to change jobs.
look what just happened to tk shipping

Yeah, TK, ASP are shrinking. I did my time with CSR then they shut their operations down, and INCO are now moving their dirt with the help of Ukrainian Officers. Cement Australia is another that is moving Cement from Devonport to Melbourne and Sydney with foreign labour. There is a lot of product being moved around Australia by foreign labour.

Captsdh you are right that the standards have been dropped. This seems to have happened to meet the demand for tickets. The new manilla amendments that the STCW code has brought in has cut sea time down considerably. When I got my Chiefs Ticket it took me 10years. That is about as fast as you can do it. I passed all my exams first time, and went for them as soon as I had my sea time up. Now they will be able to get there is 7 or 8 years.

MUA is too strong for its own good, strangling the industry. Like it or not, the "market", i.e. free enterprise, always finds a way to deal with this (offshoring, 457s etc) and we are seeing the results of it now. Perhaps its swung to far in their favour, but the industry only has itself to blame.

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lortap said..
MUA is too strong for its own good, strangling the industry. Like it or not, the "market", i.e. free enterprise, always finds a way to deal with this (offshoring, 457s etc) and we are seeing the results of it now. Perhaps its swung to far in their favour, but the industry only has itself to blame.

The MUA is only a third of the shipping industry. There are three different unions. All the stuff you see on the news about the MUA is usually from the Wharfies. In the last 20years the workplace laws have made it very hard to take industrial action so this has not been so much of a problem. All the older blokes that have the attitude that you are thinking of have been slowly been weeded out. There is a much different outlook onboard these days as compared to when I first started in 2000.

Remo - Agree again mate..

For the Australian shipping industry to even start getting its feet back again, all three unions (AMOU,MOU,AIMPEI), need to realise that the mining boom is over, and unfortunately, certain benefits and salary packages MAY have to be reduced in line with the markets, it is what it is, and you can argue until you are blue in the face, but this is what will save the industry.

Talking of the Blue water side of the industry...What is sad is that the AMC is still putting deck cadets through, and in all reality, the actual percentage of deck cadetships in Australia is slim to none, which will mean the eventual die-out of young australian officers coming up. Another thing that doesn't make sense , is given the huge over supply of officers and engineers coming from strong coastal backgrounds (tugs,barges,etc), why is there not a crossover scheme in order for guys with coastal tickets (Master 4, Eng C3 etc), in order to progress to the blue water..answer to this..no F**king Aussie flag ships ! It is all related, it is all important, and this will effect a huge amount of people.

Sam

Interesting times. Im an ex deckie and master 5 fishing.
I know a lot of the guys who signed on with a local oil and gas marine mob here in Gero were ex cray fishermen who got out of that when it crashed a few years ago Luckily the oil and gas boomed at that time and they all did their sea time and changed their tickets over to commercial. Now all those contracts are finished and they are all looking for jobs.
Its not just marine though.
Im in mine processing nowdays and there are so many Philly boiler makers and cleaners around even on Australian sites its mind boggling. When I first started going up to PNG there were a few Philly process operators but now they are all over the maintenance depts as well and they have displaced the national and expat labor that used to do those jobs because they are cheap and reliable. I use a mix of Philly / Aussie / Kiwi in some places I work (Africa, Philippines and PNG) and it was a real eye opener for me, I ran a couple of big projects in Australia many years ago and I swore I would never do a construction project again in Australia using Aussie labor. Some of the stuff you have to deal with is crazy, the drugs, alcohol, politics etc. 70% of the guys were great but that 30% of crap are just soul destroying.
Not sure what the answer is but we definitely are not helping ourselves with our attitude to a fair days work and reliability.
I go back to the Philippines on the weekend for work and I know Im just gonna be able to focus on the project do my job and not have to spend my time breast feeding a grown man.
Not saying its right or wrong just the way it is at the moment.
W

Well not in the commercial marine industry, but was in the mining industry doing construction in PNG, and have to echo above comments about the filo boilermakers etc. The guys just work, show up for work every day!, and the quality is bang on. Does not surprise me that anyone who has worked with them would want to bring them on to Australian sites, even if you paid them the same, you probably got 50% more productivity. The PNG locals were easy to deal with, but some just really didn't understand the concept of work, still stuck on "island time".

Worked underground construction in Australia, the construction super spends most of his time, babysitting, keeping his blokes from getting kicked off site for various drug/alcohol infringements, killing themselves driving home after booze binges once their last shift finishes etc etc. its a full time job, no wonder the bloke I was working with was bald.

And similar observation, you show up to a mining camp here in Australia, and the admin staff, receptionists are all "ozzies", whereas all the cleaning/kitchen staff tend to be filos, indonesians, africans etc etc. I'm not sure how they pay relative to each other etc, but it's a pretty **** job, and no surprise that no australians want to do it. Not sure where that sits with 457 visas etc, cause the jobs obviously require little skills (cleaning anyway), and there are plenty of locals with the skills to fill the positions. But strangely I don't think you hear anything about imports taking all our dunny cleaning jobs. I think there is a lot of the younger generation (my generation) who would benefit from some character building.

Just an observation. Sorry about going off topic!

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worrier said..
Im an ex deckie and master 5 fishing.

What cray boats were you on mate???

coastal and abrohlos many moons ago
W

I did a couple of season, Big Bank was the most intense.

Too many floats....and too many waves on board.

So I have just heard some news. There are some 457s that have been let go by one company, and they are taking the company to court for unfair dismissal. Its on the ground that the EBA says that the redundancy's will be given to Last On First Off. How do these temporary (fill in the gap) workers get a court date??

I also heard for a mate the other day that Skilled have let a heap of people go, but have kept the 457s on because there visas are still current. These is also another company that is in the same boat but I can't remember which one it is.

Mate of mine was having a grizzle about jobs cable pulling on the NBN being advertised in Ireland as they have been unable to source Australian workers.

Classic. How long ago was this planned and was it not possible to bring Aussies up to speed during that time.

457's are designed to antagonize in my opinion.

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japie said..


457's are designed to antagonize in my opinion.

No. They are designed to impoverish.