I'm going to exhibit at an expo and have been advised that all electrical equipment I use must be tested and tagged. And they will have someone there during setup that I can pay to do it if it's tagged. I don't know much about it to be honest but suspect the whole test and tag thing is a massive crock of ****.

Apparently anything running from mains power must be tagged. So I will need to get phone charger, laptop power supply, monitor power cord, some lights (12V but the 12V tranny is a plug-pack into 240V so needs to be tested apparently), the charger for my 4G wireless internet thingo, some extension crs and god knows what else tagged. This is all gear that is less than a few years old and that I have used in airports, government buildings, my own office, at home etc without ever thinking "this could be about to kill me".

Does anybody know why I need to employ test and tag procedures to eliminate the risk of these products being faulty when I use them in some paces but not others?

Can I buy tags off ebay and tag stuff myself (legally)? I know how to use a multi meter and visually inspect if something looks dodgy.

What will they try to charge me per device if I pay these thief's running the expo to do it for me?

Because its part of OHS requirements and Work Safe. its not bull**** at all its about keeping people safe in there workplace and in public? we have always just had a sparky come and test and tag once a year takes F all time and doesn't cost the earth ( pun not intended) I find it more alarming you would consider buying Tags off Ebay out of china and running around with a dick-smith multi meter

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dirtyharry said..


Does anybody know why I need to employ test and tag procedures to eliminate the risk of these products being faulty when I use them in some paces but not others?

Can I buy tags off ebay and tag stuff myself (legally)? I know how to use a multi meter and visually inspect if something looks dodgy.

What will they try to charge me per device if I pay these thief's running the expo to do it for me?

1) It's law. And the expo will require this for insurance purposes. It also ensures your safety that the cords and appliances aren't damaged and the are no faults. There are certain applications where appliance can be tested every 1 or even 5 years. Most portable tools will need quarterly testing as they are exposed to hostile environments.

2) You can buy tags from anywhere but unless you've done the Test and Tag course from energy safety or are an Electrician then "legally" you can't

3) Usually about $5 tag but they might try and rip you off.

I would say is pure shaite, however you will be using their space so will need to follow their requirements. It's their party anyway.

We live in the era of Liabilities, passing responsibility to someone else and blame the others driven by the insurance industry and the sheep behavior of general public.

Plumbing and Electricians are treated like semi gods here. Most of the work they do is OK, however there is a lot of crap put out by the licensed ones.

I tinker myself with electricity a lot (I am an engineer but not a tradie). I build transformers with up 600V secondaries for tube circuits I design and build for audio equipment.

A tradie wouldn't have a F%%^ clue what is in this circuits, however I am not allowed to install a simple light fixture in my own home, but their are.

You have the answer already there in your post, just use common sense.

I agree with the first and last parts of your post, but electricians don't get their licences off the back of weeties packets, they spend years learning how to perform their trade, much like you spent years at uni/college learning to be an engineer.

You design it, they put it all together safely.

Like everyone has stated it is in accordance with Occupational Safety and Health Regulations 1996. you cannot just buy your own tags on ebay and use a multi-meter . You need a fit for purpose appliance tester capable of testing Class I & II appliances. Small cost if they charge you to test and tag them for you, should be approx $5/item and claim it back on tax. If you tag the items yourself (without certification) and there is an incident i.e. you or someone gets a boot or it starts a fire, your f****d. insurance companies will wipe their arse with you and then there will be liability costs "common lawsuit" etc

Don't fight the small stuff

^^^ yep. It's not worth the argument.

^^ Ditto (Edit)

As Stuthepirate said: You can get the tags from Bunnings, Masters, but unless you're a sparkie (using your licence number) or done the T&T course (and using your licence number) you cant tag them. (Unless the items in question are straight out of the box, then you can use a New To Service tag)
Before you're tempted to think, "I'll just make up a number, she'll be right". Check the last paragraph.


Is it overkill to T&T everything... yeah kinda, but electrical stuff does break. People treat stuff badly (esp when its not theirs)
I've failed cheap stuff (powerboards and extensions) straight out of the packet.

I've seen some pretty funky stuff come in that people are using day in day out that would've killed them if they touched the wrong part.



If the expo is work related (an why else would you be there) They and thus You are exposed via Legislation to "ensuring a safe place of work".
IF, someone gets electrocuted (even a quick jolt) from your equipment, you would need to be able to show that you had a process in place to have mitigated or eliminated that risk - if you haven't... $$$$$.

The expo is covering their ass by making you cover yours.

As a sparky its EASY money
Especially on construction sites where carton of beer is the currency

OK. I'm prepared to accept I will just have to pay someone to do it because of some BS rules. What I'm not going to accept is that this system has been well thought out and is practical.

For all those "its about keeping people safe in there workplace and in public" arguments, then why do you not operate a tagging procedure in your own home? Why are you happy to accept that tagging procedures make you safer at work but not at home?

There doesn't seem to be any allowance for brand new equipment, ridiculously low-risk equipment etc? E.g. if my understanding of the rules are right, then if I buy a brand new microwave and plonk it in the tea room at work it needs a tag that day and then a re-tag 5 years later. How many people have ever been electrocuted by on old microwave oven in a situation that would have been avoided through tagging? I suspect none. Or my plug pack for iphone charger - why does it need to be tagged when at a work place? How many have ever caused an injury or death?

And why is it so poorly enforced? I go to client premises for meetings all the time, go into shops etc and see ****loads of un-tagged equipment in use. So, if it's so important why is it not enforced?

Don't get me wrong, I can see why a corded power drill belonging to a tradie and that gets thrown in and out of a ute day after day needs to be tagged and tested. But I don't see why the printer that I sat on my desk the day I bought it and won't move until it dies needs to be part of a test and tag procedure just because it's at work when nobody in their right mind would apply similar standards to exactly the same device used in exactly the same way, but their my own home.

As for the idea of buying my own tags... I don't think this is the crazy idea people think it is. I wasn't intending to just check them on stuff. I would document a test procedure, implement it and use tags to manage this (exactly how they're intended to be used). But it turns I don't meet the requirement for a "competent person", so I'll give this idea a miss..... probably.

I have done 6 trade shows/expos this year and everything was tagged.
However not once ever was it checked, I heard someone asking at one expo "can you get someone to check and tag this, I haven't had it done: no one available and told "It looks Ok think you wont get into trouble" This was at Royal Exhibition building in Melb....40thous + people over 3 days

My sparkie suggested get yourself a really good multi power point box with overload switches and I'll check that.

So, Id say if your game take a risk and dont get anything checked but dont come winging if you get caught. They are only covering their own public liability insurance. Id hate to be found to be tha cause of a fire that destroyed a building and people.

Folks got worked up about political correctness. I believe over zealousness of OHS, and the rush to cover one's ass should also get a mention.

Sure, no one should underestimate the potential risks of electricity. However, if one believes the Consumer Protection Authority has earned its wages, then surely equipment being used within Straya should be safe, within reason ? When I said "within reason", I mean the condition of the cables being used. I doubt anyone one is stupid enough to use a cable that is frayed, or damaged. It is in his own interest and safety to not do that, innit?

The fear of being responsible for any disaster is becoming the norm. Councils stopped people from doing the things we used to do. Government imposed multitudes of extra safety features to houses, just in case !!!

Take smoke alarms for example. Rental properties are required, by law, to have at least 2 hardwired units. That is fair enough. Now some quick thinking businesses jumped on the gravy train, and told nervous landlords that they need to be inspected yearly, at $99 per property. All it takes is to push that little button to see if it goes peep. Perhaps light a piece of paper underneath it to set off the alarm. No, not good enough. You need a f-king certificate !

Then the electrical mob got even more clever. The RCD also requires a yearly inspection !

What does the government do? It does nothing but encourage the rip off. It will relieve the government of any responsibility in case of ?????

The strange thing is that the WA government did make RCD mandatory on all its welfare houses. Lots of money, in the millions, were paid for contractors to install them. Then s** hits the fan a few years ago, when a boy got electrocuted in one of those houses that was supposed to have RCD installed. Guess what? They weren't installed, but were fully paid though. So government got ripped off, and we got ripped off too. Laws and regulations are only as good as how well they are monitored.

The aftermath of the 10 deaths in QLD meant EVERY room in QLD will need to have a smoke alarm. I thought the best prevention is not to smoke inside the house, or not to have heaters unattended. But that is way too simple a solution, I reckon.

It's not just the sticking a tag on its also the paperwork trail to go with it..... and thats what the legal people go for.
So if your doing it for a carton of beer and NOT doing the paperwork then your short changing the tradie.

Its actually a hard way to earn an income, if your doing it right (to ALL legal conditions) you would be doing about 10 cables an hour. So @ $5 / test then minus costs its not brilliant money. @$3.50 per test and thats about the discount rate these days its poor pay for lonely work.... Often out of hours to meet the clients needs.

Also don't assume that 'NEW' items are correct, Bunnings many years ago had a delivery that went to ALL Australian stores of 20m power cords (yep the ones near the checkouts in the big bins) that were wired incorrectly. Thousands of them were sold through their stores with the active and neutral swapped, so what you say!!!!
It made them dangerous if cut, even if they might have been protected by an 'earth leakage breaker' the reversal made them lethal. (under some conditions)

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dirtyharry said..
OK. I'm prepared to accept I will just have to pay someone to do it because of some BS rules. What I'm not going to accept is that this system has been well thought out and is practical.

For all those "its about keeping people safe in there workplace and in public" arguments, then why do you not operate a tagging procedure in your own home? Why are you happy to accept that tagging procedures make you safer at work but not at home?

There doesn't seem to be any allowance for brand new equipment, ridiculously low-risk equipment etc? E.g. if my understanding of the rules are right, then if I buy a brand new microwave and plonk it in the tea room at work it needs a tag that day and then a re-tag 5 years later. How many people have ever been electrocuted by on old microwave oven in a situation that would have been avoided through tagging? I suspect none. Or my plug pack for iphone charger - why does it need to be tagged when at a work place? How many have ever caused an injury or death?

And why is it so poorly enforced? I go to client premises for meetings all the time, go into shops etc and see ****loads of un-tagged equipment in use. So, if it's so important why is it not enforced?

Don't get me wrong, I can see why a corded power drill belonging to a tradie and that gets thrown in and out of a ute day after day needs to be tagged and tested. But I don't see why the printer that I sat on my desk the day I bought it and won't move until it dies needs to be part of a test and tag procedure just because it's at work when nobody in their right mind would apply similar standards to exactly the same device used in exactly the same way, but their my own home.

As for the idea of buying my own tags... I don't think this is the crazy idea people think it is. I wasn't intending to just check them on stuff. I would document a test procedure, implement it and use tags to manage this (exactly how they're intended to be used). But it turns I don't meet the requirement for a "competent person", so I'll give this idea a miss..... probably.

I don't operate a tagging procedure at home because its not work. Its not covered by pesky things like "actual law".
I thought it was a bit of wank until I started seeing items coming through that were failing.


"Enforcement" per se isn't the issue, its the ramifications to your business if it goes wrong. Like anything in life... you pays your money you takes your chances.


I T&T as an additional service to the IT work I do for a couple of companies that do a lot of work for mining industry. To be honest its a pain in the ass and after the costs of tags & the test equipment, the annual equipment calibrations, the paperwork etc there's next to no $ in it.
The impact to their business by not being able to get on site without having the coloured tag though...


As Gizmo said (and I've seen), brand new stuff doesn't always pass.
It should... but as we've seen recently with the "Asbestos Free" fibreboard coming in from China on numerous new projects...

T & T practitioners: Is it true that the AS/NZS 3760 standard allows for a brand new (complying) cable to forego the first cycle of T&T testing when purchased ?. So, one only has to keep the receipt as proof of this ?. Is this correct ?

dirtyharry: I agree with you about the empire building. I remember when the study was released about flexible cables causing harm and the result was the standard. I agreed with the intent, but it's developed a life of it's own. However, I also agree with the advocate posters. Most people are completely stupid when it comes to power cables and show no care with them or understand their limitations, The standard (even though it's over enforced I think) is a good thing on the whole.

J

It's pretty simple. How does anyone know that your equipment is not faulty??? If there is an insulation resistance fault then it could cause a fire. This happens in many households every year. I have seen a few powerboards go up at work.

A car needs to be roadworthy to be on the road, why shouldn't electrical equipment at an expo???

Persons can also be electrocuted by faulty equipment. But its a big wrought when you look at it.

If you are a big tight arse and don't mind breaking the Law that is put there to protect others from you. You can buy some tags off ebay or blackwoods etc. Fill them out and stick them on. Problem solved. Well unless someone gets hurt, then you will go to jail. But at least you saved a few bucks.

It would seem that when common sense flew out the door in Australia we had launched ourselves onto a very slippery slide to the bottom of world competitiveness, add to that free trade trade agreements and as a country we are pretty much stuffed now.

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jn1 said..
T & T practitioners: Is it true that the AS/NZS 3760 standard allows for a brand new (complying) cable to forego the first cycle of T&T testing when purchased ?. So, one only has to keep the receipt as proof of this ?. Is this correct ?

J

Yes, you can put on a New To Service tag.

Its deemed that the equipment should be fit for purpose at the outset (having said that... it still might not be)

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rod_bunny said..

dirtyharry: Buy some new cables. The link below isn't the cheapest, but is readily available:

www.jaycar.com.au/3pin-mains-plug-to-2x-iec-c13-female-1-8m/p/PS4102

I haven't read AS/NZS 3760 for a few years (and don't have access to it now), but here is a table in the standard that describes the testing interval depending on the cord's application. I think I remember it saying office use is 2 years. (workshop environment is 6 months). After this period, you will have to get the cables T&T'ed, but before this period it does not require a tag. Please check this interval.

Print the web page (noting the spec about "SAA approved") and keep your receipt. So once that it checked you are good for that period. Should be less hassle hiring a professional. If you are challenged, ask them to "show me your proof !".

Short answer;
Yes. Total BS.

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rod_bunny said...

jn1 said..
T & T practitioners: Is it true that the AS/NZS 3760 standard allows for a brand new (complying) cable to forego the first cycle of T&T testing when purchased ?. So, one only has to keep the receipt as proof of this ?. Is this correct ?

J

Yes, you can put on a New To Service tag.

After completing a visual inspection

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Subsonic said..

rod_bunny said...

jn1 said..
T & T practitioners: Is it true that the AS/NZS 3760 standard allows for a brand new (complying) cable to forego the first cycle of T&T testing when purchased ?. So, one only has to keep the receipt as proof of this ?. Is this correct ?

J

Yes, you can put on a New To Service tag.

After completing a visual inspection

What about checking for continuity???

For the initial new to service tag, no, apparently not required.

For the time I've been doing it at work, the majority of the items that I've had to fail, have been at the visual inspection stage.

In fact, the only one that was failed on the machine was a power cord, that's out of about 50 odd power tools.

yep im with you on that.

tags dont hold any authority, its essentially just a receipt, as soon as there is a fault with the lead that tag means nothing. we've had guys working on site and you can see that the plug has pulled off the end of the lead but its all good because its tagged

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jsnfok said..
yep im with you on that.

tags dont hold any authority, its essentially just a receipt, as soon as there is a fault with the lead that tag means nothing. we've had guys working on site and you can see that the plug has pulled off the end of the lead but its all good because its tagged

No it is not good because it is tagged! it is the responsibility of the user to visually inspect any appliance before using it. Would you use your car if it had 1 flat tire and say "shill be rite mate it is registered". i am a sparky by trade but not working as one but I am on construction sites (project managing) and if a see a cord or appliance that is tagged but dangerous I just cut the plug out so It cant be used and remove the tag and replace it with an out of order tag.
Also a multimeter is no good for tagging, you would need a 500v Megger or a dedicated appliance testing meter.
You should get all your stuff tagged before the expo, you'll find operators that can come to your door and tagg all your gear, the ongoing price is about $5 a tag and the price get better after 10 tags I think.
The guy tagging at the expo would most probably charging premium.
just think about someone getting electrocuted (even if it is His own stupidity) on your lead or other connected appliance and you have not tagged it.
You would be in so much shiiit that it is not worthed saving $ 50 in tagging.

In reply to some of the things I've glanced over in the message thread.

No, The rules are not BS (They're part of an Australian Standard AS/NZS3760:2010)

Yes, There is law stating that electrical items that are in a workplace MUST be routinely inspected by a competent person, and formal records
kept of these inspections.

Yes, There is leeway for new equipment (other than construction sites) that state the a NEW item is covered by the first "Test Period" by the
manufacturer. How ever, You MUST keep the receipt handy in the case of supplying proof that the item is within the period of inspection.

Think of the whole process like you would car registration.
Must you have a rego check? YES = test tagging.
Must you have insurance? No, But if there is an accident, You are going to wish you did. = If you're items are not tested and tagged, No insurance claim if you do have insurance.
Are you able to drive an unregistered car around your OWN property? Yes = Test tagging not required by law at home
Are you allowed to drive an unregistered car on public roads? No = Tagging required at workplaces.
Trying to write your own rego papers = writing your own tags unqualified.

Starting to see a pattern?

I admit, Some people do charge stupid prices. but you find that with all businesses from time to time.


Probably cop some flack over the post, But just trying to clear up the view a little.

Dont forget that as a tradie we have to go through this quarterly, every power tool/lead 4 x a year.

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holden said..
Dont forget that as a tradie we have to go through this quarterly, every power tool/lead 4 x a year.

And if you hire out gear the T&T must be done prior to EVERY hire.......... Yep daily if required.

Just 'cause its tagged doesn't mean its safe...

Just this morning for example; the person who used the coffee machine after me, asked if I could test it as it had stopped the whole power point from working. The RCD for that circuit had tripped. I tested the coffee machine and it failed.

I pulled the plug from the bottom and it was full of water. Something inside the machine has leaked.
Without the RCD, things would've got loud and smelly.






Luckily for everyone involved, I managed to get a coffee out of it before it broke.

honest question , if rcds work why do we need to tag?

does anyone know of someone dying from a circuit with a correctly installed rcd?

I'm not saying it hasn't happened ,I honestly want to know if it has

also the car rego comparison is a great one if you live in wa as they don't even pretend to check if your car is safe the just take your money! don't even get a sticker(tag) anymore.

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Agent000 said..
honest question , if rcds work why do we need to tag?

does anyone know of someone dying from a circuit with a correctly installed rcd?

I'm not saying it hasn't happened ,I honestly want to know if it has

also the car rego comparison is a great one if you live in wa as they don't even pretend to check if your car is safe the just take your money! don't even get a sticker(tag) anymore.

Testing RCDs is another part of PAT.
You can test fixed and portable. (I'm only doing portable)

They do fail. I failed one about 2 months ago. (and I only have exposure to about 4 in total, so its not like its a 1 in million type thing)

Same process and periods as the normal stuff.

RCD testing use timings to trip, you can check previous test timings to predict failures.
I had advised the client that the one I failed was going to fail soon during the previous test. He had a new one bought already.


In theory you're "supposed" to test the PRCD via the test button prior to every use session. (Bit like a prestart for a vehicle)