Is this simple theory of setting your mast position with foil as simple as it looks or are there way more variables at hand? Looking at this from a newbie point of view with big board and big foil..I have a big 140 litre board at 6,9 long and a 2000 foil..if i use this technique my mast is as far forward as it can go in the tracks. I'll give it a go but fear I may sky rocket quickly!

Simple answer from my experience: YES. With my new front wings my mast is also as forward as it can be. For a newbie it is good to think about the right mast position. When i started It took me a few hours of struggling before i realized my mast was way too much backward.

Yes worked for me

Yes, as a very good starting point.Might require some fine tuning but it puts you in the ballpark.Ideally you float and foil with feet in same position.
Most people ride with the mast too far back,which increases inertia in pitch and the number of touchdowns (more board in front of you).
Sometimes the manufacturers have placed the footstrap inserts too far back too...this might be a problem.

So in theory, if you have a longer board you are always going to have to put the mast further into the forward position to compensate for the weight towards the nose? Guess that's half the reason why DW boards have mast tracks so further forward?

Yes, that's exactly to way to get the right sort of position for the mast. That technique has been around for 3/4 yrs. Make sure your finger is 1/3rd the way in on the wing.

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Slab said..
So in theory, if you have a longer board you are always going to have to put the mast further into the forward position to compensate for the weight towards the nose? Guess that's half the reason why DW boards have mast tracks so further forward?

In this technique yes, that's why. From a volume distribution standpoint, that's also why. When standing on a DW board you want to stand balanced in the middle of the volume so you can paddle efficiently and also so that when you paddle up the foil is in the right position.

good starting point. You want to stand where the board glide the best and stay there when foiling, in theory.

Seems such a simple thing to do so worth a go and then fine tune. Cheers

There is a flaw in the system of saying balanced on the foil is always correct.

A board shaper knows where he wants YOU to stand on the deck based on rocker line, volume distribution, and template shape. This spot is usually indicated by foot strap inserts. Without inserts, it can be indicated by deck pad markings. The shaper doesn't know if you're mounting a "boat anchor" foil, or high end carbon light foil to his board. He also may not know how a boards weight balance gets thrown out of wack by workmanship in Asian factories.

A newbie isn't going to pump around like Kane, so weight balance may be secondary to, standing in the right spot for volume distribution, and rocker.

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DWF said..
There is a flaw in the system of saying balanced on the foil is always correct.

A board shaper knows where he wants YOU to stand on the deck based on rocker line, volume distribution, and template shape. This spot is usually indicated by foot strap inserts. Without inserts, it can be indicated by deck pad markings. The shaper doesn't know if you're mounting a "boat anchor" foil, or high end carbon light foil to his board. He also may not know how a boards weight balance gets thrown out of wack by workmanship in Asian factories.

A newbie isn't going to pump around like Kane, so weight balance may be secondary to, standing in the right spot for volume distribution, and rocker.

So it's a decent starting point for most but not a guarantee

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Slab said..
So in theory, if you have a longer board you are always going to have to put the mast further into the forward position to compensate for the weight towards the nose? Guess that's half the reason why DW boards have mast tracks so further forward?

Yes,...

Physics!

And you cannot imagine (well, yes, you can read the exchanges...) how much I was flamed for stating this simple fact (that the center of lift of the foil should be close to the centers of flotation & weight of the board) on this forum some years ago... Glad to see things have changed.

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DWF said..
There is a flaw in the system of saying balanced on the foil is always correct.

A board shaper knows where he wants YOU to stand on the deck based on rocker line, volume distribution, and template shape. This spot is usually indicated by foot strap inserts. Without inserts, it can be indicated by deck pad markings. The shaper doesn't know if you're mounting a "boat anchor" foil, or high end carbon light foil to his board. He also may not know how a boards weight balance gets thrown out of wack by workmanship in Asian factories.

A newbie isn't going to pump around like Kane, so weight balance may be secondary to, standing in the right spot for volume distribution, and rocker.

I am sure your boards are spot on Dwight.
But i have owned boards from 3 big manufacturers plus 1 custom and the tracks and/or the strap inserts were badly placed an in one case ridiculously badly placed.
Not to forget that manufacturers are still printing manuals and board foilboxes with that BS about mounting forward for light wind and to the rear for strong...duh

I started messing with epoxy&carbon by reinstalling those dummy strap inserts.
Slippery slope,now i make my own boards :)

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colas said..

Slab said..
So in theory, if you have a longer board you are always going to have to put the mast further into the forward position to compensate for the weight towards the nose? Guess that's half the reason why DW boards have mast tracks so further forward?

Yes,...

Physics!

And you cannot imagine (well, yes, you can read the exchanges...) how much I was flamed for stating this simple fact (that the center of lift of the foil should be close to the centers of flotation & weight of the board) on this forum some years ago... Glad to see things have changed.

It's an interesting area for sure!

My experience with DW and wing boards.

DWF is on the money here and it is particularly relevant for DW boards of the planning hull type regarding where the rocker and shape can best support your weight with respect to controlled early planning. The faster the board planes the further rearward of centre of buoyancy you might like to stand to maintain directional stability, as you come onto foil, to prevent the rails catching. I am only talking and inch or two max. For wing boards being used with fast foils standing slightly rearward of the centre of buoyancy and having the board and its rocker designed around this seems to me to help with the required extended planning of faster foils.

As DW boards become genuinely light then the foil box and its reinforcement can focus a lot of weight proportionally rearward. This is particularly noticeable in the case of brands like Kalama where the front half of the board seems to weigh nothing and all the weight is centred around the boxes. The board balance test results in the foil being visually further rearward and slightly rearward of the centre of buoyancy than some schools of thought feel appropriate but works great for early planning control for me. The desire to just keep moving the foil and its box forward just moves the weight forward and ironically requires moving the foil further forward for balance in a race to the nose. The designers react by sticking more bulky foam in the nose to support the paddler standing further forward and with weight in the nose again leads to the foil being pushed forward to support more weight on the balance test.

With new equipment my first test is the balance test and then I try and stand slightly rearward of the centre of buoyancy (ideally in the correct planning position) and test to see if it is compatible with where the balance test put my foil. Some would say the balance test is just an old guide but when it doesn't work it makes it harder to be successful has me questioning the equipment design.

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DWF said..
There is a flaw in the system of saying balanced on the foil is always correct.

A board shaper knows where he wants YOU to stand on the deck based on rocker line, volume distribution, and template shape. This spot is usually indicated by foot strap inserts. Without inserts, it can be indicated by deck pad markings. The shaper doesn't know if you're mounting a "boat anchor" foil, or high end carbon light foil to his board. He also may not know how a boards weight balance gets thrown out of wack by workmanship in Asian factories.

A newbie isn't going to pump around like Kane, so weight balance may be secondary to, standing in the right spot for volume distribution, and rocker.

Exactly. And balanced while not yet on the foil is not always correct either.

If it's not some sort of special big beginner board, then designers usually balance the boards pretty well, so once you position yourself (and the foil) according to the rocker, it would very likely also be balanced while on foil.

To give you an example, if I would position the foil so that the following 80 L board would be the easiest to stand on while not yet on foil, I would be standing too far forward on that board, meaning I would be pushing water while getting going, which would then kill any light wind performance. Instead, I prioritise the ease of getting going in light winds, and the balanced feel while on foil. And for doing so the method described in this post is spot on, at least for that board, and for many many other boards by that shaper.

Notice how my back foot is not even close to the back foot strap, and the tail of the board is already sinking quite a bit. Yet this is the best way to set up that board. With the bigger sizes it (sinking the tail while not yet foiling) would not be that noticeable, yet for the best light wind performance it's needed.


Look at just the very beginning of this clip, and then at 00:48 seconds when I am off and foiling.



One more example of how well balanced the board feels while on foil.

Omenfoils do a very good video about this.

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patronus said..
Omenfoils do a very good video about this.

That's an excellent video ..thanks.

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DWF said..
There is a flaw in the system of saying balanced on the foil is always correct.

A board shaper knows where he wants YOU to stand on the deck based on rocker line, volume distribution, and template shape. This spot is usually indicated by foot strap inserts. Without inserts, it can be indicated by deck pad markings. The shaper doesn't know if you're mounting a "boat anchor" foil, or high end carbon light foil to his board. He also may not know how a boards weight balance gets thrown out of wack by workmanship in Asian factories.

A newbie isn't going to pump around like Kane, so weight balance may be secondary to, standing in the right spot for volume distribution, and rocker.

They unfortunately not always...big brands do some weird stuff sometime...like rushing products out...so I guess you are correct, the shaper did the good job...the quality control no.Another thing to watch is how is the rake of the mast. If you have a foil pointing down you will be flat and level...then gaining speed the nose burry....then you will step back....lift off and move fwd.