Looks like we were totally ignored by the pencil necks of the Dot .Seems they want to re educate us to get on board with their ridiculous rules.
I will not comply. .www.917thewave.com.au/news/local-news/new-safety-gear-requirements-for-wa-water-users/

When I did the original consultation I tried to convince them to include Laser flares as a practical alternative for windsurfing. 80mm long and 62g

Looks like they have ignored this type and all the approved devices are much larger

Electronic Visual Distress Signals (EVDS)All EVDS must be of a type approved by DoT in a notice published in the Government Gazette.
These approved devices meet specific standards. Currently, six EVDS meet DoT's requirements and have been approved for use:
547 Orion Electronic SOS Beacon Locator
ACR Electronics ResQFlare
Lonako (LNK-ERS1) Electronic Rescue Signal Light
Tektite SOSeFlare 5th Gen
Sirius Signal C-1003 SOS Distress Light
Sirius Signal C-1004 SOS Distress Light.

Whilst i think 400m is a very constrictive distance, its hard to argue with the overall logic. I think the last iteration of the rules were better. Carry a registered epirb equipped PLB and approved jacket and you're good to go. Its a bit sad its moved back to utility belt required.



Im thankful at least lao shi and other past and present WWA committee members have gone in to bat for us. Without their input we'd be required to sail around with bailers etc.

Hi Everyone,
So we need PLB's , not a bad idea...

Any recommendations on brand and place to buy in Perth,
also what does "GPS enabled mean?"

I have had two units take in water, short out the battery and die... see pictures. sort of worse than not having one, since I sailed around with false confidence of being able to ring my trusted government.

The agent was not not interested... and my report of this to AMSA has not resulted in any response to me - I sound as old and tech grumpy as I am...

Cheers for any suggestions!

PS, I've seen something about distress alarm features on Garmin watches... is that an option

Hey Bjorn, I think from memory back in the day it was possible to get plbs that didn't utilize gps, just phone network to do location. Fine on land when you're close enough to a town, not so good when you're drifting to Africa. We used to use them for work. In some ways they were better, you could link them to a mobile and it would transmit a message only to that that mobile, either saying "I'm safe" or "I need help". These devices also weren't linked to a safety network like AMSA either, which is so far as we are concerned a requirement now. Sometimes that's a bit disconcerting, it's easy enough to set one off accidentally, at which point they send the cavalry out looking for you. Not really a great look when the cavalry arrives at thirsty point to begin search and rescue for you, only to discover you headed to the pub for a pint 15mins ago.

^^Yes they did too didn't they

Regardless of DOT wants, if it's a big swell and I need to be able to duck dive a wave or get out from underneath my gear when wiped out in the Margs / Lancelin / Coronation break, I'm not wearing a PFD. I'd rather cop a fine than die. Attaching a small device (PLB etc) to my gear is fine. Might have to look at building a little storage notch into the deck of boards in the future. Might be an opportunity another offering from Mark @ M_Oz?

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bjorn said..
Hi Everyone,
So we need PLB's , not a bad idea...

Any recommendations on brand and place to buy in Perth,
also what does "GPS enabled mean?"

I have had two units take in water, short out the battery and die... see pictures. sort of worse than not having one, since I sailed around with false confidence of being able to ring my trusted government.

The agent was not not interested... and my report of this to AMSA has not resulted in any response to me - I sound as old and tech grumpy as I am...

Cheers for any suggestions!

PS, I've seen something about distress alarm features on Garmin watches... is that an option

I think the RescueMe EPIRBS are the best size. All others are large in comparison. When my PLB expires I'll be getting one. $350-450 is about where they are. 7yr batt life.

I've had a GME plb for a couple of years but only used for sailing way offshore reefs up north ,I just stuff it inside my chest zip wettie to one side.Not going to do this every time I sail ,I,ll assess each situation no mandates for me.
www.roadtechmarine.com.au/gme-mt610g-personal-locator-beacon/p/DC9082

I have this one and it's small enough to fit in my impact vest without even noticing it.

www.gme.net.au/au/emergency-safety/mt610g/

Any device will ingest water after some time so you better store it water proof. Mine is in two freezer bags and hasn't been wet a single time so still looks brand new. I replace the outer bag once a year just in case.

In the event I need the device, I can quickly rip the plastic bag which only takes a split second. This gives me the confidence that the device actually still works when you need it and of course you test it monthly

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Dip916 said..
Regardless of DOT wants, if it's a big swell and I need to be able to duck dive a wave or get out from underneath my gear when wiped out in the Margs / Lancelin / Coronation break, I'm not wearing a PFD. I'd rather cop a fine than die. Attaching a small device (PLB etc) to my gear is fine. Might have to look at building a little storage notch into the deck of boards in the future. Might be an opportunity another offering from Mark @ M_Oz?

ooooh would not be hard

bring me your thingies people, I will make a recess.

Where best? Desk, well forward of the mast and off the centreline? With / without a cover? If with, needs to be able to be removed without tools, but not pop open at an inconvenient time.

I'd probably start with one of my larger volume boards, as I'm always more concerned about being stuck out the back in big swells when wind dies. Never have a concern with too much wind.

What if you have mast base separation and can't catch your board ,best to have it on you.

The PLB seem to be the easy bit. How much space do you need for four flares or EVDS (they seem quite bulky)?

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Rango said..
What if you have mast base separation and can't catch your board ,best to have it on you.

I agree in some circumstances.

If it's a warm sunny mid-afternoon with 18-22 kn and small swell, I don't want be wearing anything more than boardies, a rashie for the sun, helmet (never sail without) and a harness. I'd put a PLB in the board and not have to wear something else just to put it in, if legislation says that I must be carrying one.

If it's >25 kn, big swell, overcast, late in the afternoon, no one else out, strong current, a new spot I haven't sailed before ... (pick any of the these as a trigger) and I would wear a PLB on my body.

WWA met with the DOT guys over this a few months ago.
We demonstrated what we wear, how we operate, issues with the current flares, etc.

However, at this occasion they invited us mostly to show us the changes, without any options for us to impact changes.

They have their own problems. Any changes require many approval steps, and the process is pretty lengthy. Take years.

We pointed out that 400m limit is too low for us and asked for an exception. to 800m and were advised that any changes to this rule goes through ministerial approvals, and is unlikely to be accepted.

We may have an opportunity to provide more feedback for the next round of changes, as they consider us as stakeholders now.

To be honest, the electronic flares are an improvement on the current flares, as you only need one instead of four, and there is no expiration dates. A few of the approved ones are reasonably small.

People generally don't carry flares anyway, but they are required for Slalom events.
Not required for the wave events (DOT allows us an exception).
We'll now allow electronic flares in the slalom events.

Thanks everyone!

I have now bought the recommended tiny one
pickup from Anaconda @$344,
you have to first become a "club member" but it is free, saving $65, penalty will be more junk mail...but I already get heaps!

I will stick it in freezer bags, great tip ! thanks!
and always have it in my safety vest, together with my drinking water & m?sli bars - I will never die..

pretty cheap really, and it says 6 months warranty!
so, if I live 6 more years, I do expect the battery to be dead, and I will ask for a new one = customer from hell!

best
bjorn

> Any device will ingest water after some time so you better store it water proof.

There is a solution to this, which most manufacturers wont want to do... and probably not customers either.

Pot them in epoxy. No more problem.

Can't see that they will know who is who (they're not windsurfers and we kinda all look the same) .... nor be able to measure 400m from shore to a legal proof standard unless they are in a boat targeting us (in the break....?)
Even then, the definition of "shore" is different in some acts, some is the westernmost bit of land (includes groynes etc) at the lowest tide ever. So for eg at Corro that is about 150m extra of the point which is dry almost to the break every now and then. In the definition that is appears DOT / marine regs use, shore is just the normal high or low tide mark on that day I can't recall which. So there ambiguity between various Acts, inability to measure and how do they prove it was me they saw sail back from the horizon?

I got all upset 2yrs ago when they started talking this sh!te, then realised that ^^^^^^^ and I reckon its a non issue. We all nod, then keep on same same

I think it's another "covering the bums" situation, if anybody dies, it's their fault for not obeying the rules, we did our job.

They have been known to pull people up down safety bay way. One guy got a fine. Kitted himself up after that(he actually got out of the fine on a technicality).

i figure they would largely be using the boats gps to figure distances out. There are also range finders that can deliver an accurate enough result. I'd also figure(hope) they'd apply the 400m rule with some leniency since we have no accurate way of making sure we're not 10m outside the 400m

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Subsonic said..
They have been known to pull people up down safety bay way. One guy got a fine. Kitted himself up after that(he actually got out of the fine on a technicality).

i figure they would largely be using the boats gps to figure distances out. There are also range finders that can deliver an accurate enough result. I'd also figure(hope) they'd apply the 400m rule with some leniency since we have no accurate way of making sure we're not 10m outside the 400m

Im gonna sail along the 400m line with no PLB or flares and stick one foot or arm out the side just to tease them..

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WindsurfingWA said..
WWA met with the DOT guys over this a few months ago.
We demonstrated what we wear, how we operate, issues with the current flares, etc.

However, at this occasion they invited us mostly to show us the changes, without any options for us to impact changes.

They have their own problems. Any changes require many approval steps, and the process is pretty lengthy. Take years.

We pointed out that 400m limit is too low for us and asked for an exception. to 800m and were advised that any changes to this rule goes through ministerial approvals, and is unlikely to be accepted.

We may have an opportunity to provide more feedback for the next round of changes, as they consider us as stakeholders now.

To be honest, the electronic flares are an improvement on the current flares, as you only need one instead of four, and there is no expiration dates. A few of the approved ones are reasonably small.

People generally don't carry flares anyway, but they are required for Slalom events.
Not required for the wave events (DOT allows us an exception).
We'll now allow electronic flares in the slalom events.

So what is the smallest electronic flare out there? This one seems reasonably but not on the list?

www.whitworths.com.au/ocean-signal-rescueme-electronic-distress-flare

I ordered a Sirius Signal 1003 from Amazon.
With a round floatation ring removed, it's not too big. (The ring is easily removed/refitted - just slides on)

It stays in my boat mostly, but will use it at Cervantes this year.

I mostly sail within 1km from the shore, and have no intention of carrying the flare.
I use a life jacket , mostly because makes my life easier with waterstarting.

The Whitworths one is not approved by DOT.

It's a bit amusing that they approved devices not readily available in Australia.

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bjorn said..
Hi Everyone,
So we need PLB's , not a bad idea...

Any recommendations on brand and place to buy in Perth,
also what does "GPS enabled mean?"

I have had two units take in water, short out the battery and die... see pictures. sort of worse than not having one, since I sailed around with false confidence of being able to ring my trusted government.

That device is not 'waterproof' to the 'standard' required for continuous and rough immersions that typically encountered by a windsurfer. I suspect it the same most of these devices as they are not designed for how WE use them.

I had the same model pictured and it corroded, I mistakenly thought it was 'waterproof' but it is NOT sufficiently for how we use it. I confirmed that with a UK repairer that does most of it not all repairs.

That unit is rated for Immersion to 10 m (30 ft) for 5 minute. This is really not enough for how we use it. We need something like 30 or 100m continuous immersion use, similar to a waterproof watch.

I now wrap the unit in a few sealed plastic bags, and then aquapak. and make sure the unit remains dry when left for extended periods. i.e. take it out of the bags.

I would have liked to be a fly on the wall, when the conversation arose around requiring flares.

Most flare chemistry uses an oxidiser of one type or another, and likely some burnable-metal (magnesium, etc). Both of those chemicals are designed to have a safe-threshold before for decomposition - typically heat is needed to initiate a reaction.

Adding water will negatively affect that magic-smoke -> likely nothing will happen (they are fine) or they just stop working. Sometimes they slowly decompose with a bit of heat. Occasionally there will be a robust expansion of the ingredients as they let out the magic.

Its why flares are packed in a flare-container-kit - the words are "... sealed waterproof container..." come to mind.

Keeping flares around in your car after taking them in the water for an arvo of flat water 5k sailing is probably ok, wavesailing is just asking for for your vehicle to become a BBQ; I wouldn't take bets on anything in between.

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mathew said..
I would have liked to be a fly on the wall, when the conversation arose around requiring flares.

i don't think there were any "robust" conversations going on at all, outside of the WWA demo, they would not have spared a thought at all for what's involved, or the lack of storage space and physical exertion involved in going windsurfing. It's more a case of "safety equipment required for vessels operating more than 400m from the beach". Thats around about how far their conversations go.

So all they have to do is define vessel as not including a personal watercraft that is unpowered
except say canoe and kayak.
thereby fixing the windsurfer and kiter issue

are they telling surfers to do the same?


the issue is it's a lack of will to be sensible they just include everyone as ass covering like Decrepit said

true, never trust authority...
its far too easy to reach position of authority...
not good
(yes, boomer)

I am coming to your shores from October to early December. How strict are these safety rules, are people been stopped and checked while windsurfing ?
Thanks

Never heard of anyone being checked but depending on where you sail it's still a good idea to carry at least a plb and wear a floatation device.