Hi all, can I just remind the crew out at nth haven a couple of basic sailing rules;
1 - water craft under power and under sail should give way and avoid collision with craft not under power.
2 - there are rules to give way to other water craft under sail and general port/starboard sailing rules.

i recommend a few need to remind themselves of these rules of sailing. I know you like to keep upwind but keeping a track of other water craft and respectfully keeping a reasonable distance away from others would be a great idea. There's so much space out there I don't understand why?

100% agree. I'm sorry that happened. I can give you some explanation (not an excuse).

Haven has a bad wind gradient - the worst I know of. Wind speed varies with distance from shore line. So, sailors will form a line in a Goldilocks zone of wind strength. If you go out of that towards the shore, and you get a lull in wind, then its possible to end up back at the shore, or end up on the rocks (which would be a disaster). So, sailors will want to hold their tack where possible; plus many of them are doing their tricks. The attack angle of a short board windsurfer (kiter surfers are a little better, but not much) is horrible compared to a sailing boat. So, not a lot of "effective" space. Some sailors can't sail there as they don't have the skills or rigging knowledge to get out.

To add confusion, most of the users you see at Haven are wave sailors/kiters (surfers). So, they will follow surf rules. On a SW wind direction, this conflicts with sailing rules.

I don't like sailing at Haven, as I find it too crowded and sometimes some agro. The last thing I want to get when sailing is angry.

Hi can you elaborate on what actually happened?

There's been numerous near misses between people coming into north haven on downwinders either on foils, canoes or sups with windsurfers getting too close. But the other day I was on a foil board with a parawing on starboard tack heading upwind and a guy decided he was going to try and out point me and it was 25-30knots. Don't a great move and dangerous, was showing no sign he was prepared give way.

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samcclus said..
There's been numerous near misses between people coming into north haven on downwinders either on foils, canoes or sups with windsurfers getting too close. But the other day I was on a foil board with a parawing on starboard tack heading upwind and a guy decided he was going to try and out point me and it was 25-30knots. Don't a great move and dangerous, was showing no sign he was prepared give way.

So you were actually under power from a parawing unlike your first comments
And noone actually collided with you?
And you're calling starboard tack out there, really?

Every windsurfer out there could out manoeuvre you in a second.

Maybe stay away from the pack.
Is that your first time out there, the downwinder guys have been doing that for years with no incidents.
I have never ever seen a kayak out there.
Maybe go with Travis or Scotty mac and they can show the right way to go about it.

Your comments sound a little whingey.

Trying to avoid collision and someone hurt badly and/or damage of equipment so just trying to warn people by getting on the front foot. It's not a race so I am hardly going to be calling out "starboard". People on the water who sail should know the rules no matter the type of sailing craft. There is a guy who paddles dw on that run on a grey OC1. He has gone down to the car park before to warn people of getting too close. The end result would be damage to a $7000 water craft. I don't think being able to out manoeuvre is the point, I seen many "dances" occur when the end result is a hit. Oh btw a parawing I mean a foil board holding a wing like winging, not flying in the air. Yes Ian you should listen to Travis and Scotty haha

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samcclus said..
Trying to avoid collision and someone hurt badly and/or damage of equipment so just trying to warn people by getting on the front foot. It's not a race so I am hardly going to be calling out "starboard". People on the water who sail should know the rules no matter the type of sailing craft. There is a guy who paddles dw on that run on a grey OC1. He has gone down to the car park before to warn people of getting too close. The end result would be damage to a $7000 water craft. I don't think being able to out manoeuvre is the point, I seen many "dances" occur when the end result is a hit. Oh btw a parawing I mean a foil board holding a wing like winging, not flying in the air. Yes Ian you should listen to Travis and Scotty haha

So nothing really happened then?

The rules are more complicated than you understand. Learn the rules between craft of different types. Its not all the same..

Yer was it you sailing on port and me on starboard? Give way..

That is wrong unless we are both boats and out to sea. Does the powered craft call starboard on a surfboard on a wave. Extreme example but if you extrapolate you will get the idea.

We both going upwind you twit

Ai hey, I wasn't kiteboarding and sailing is sailing. Give way next time.

You are a danger to the community if you stick to your interpretation of the rules in that environment. I suggest you go elsewhere to protect yourself and others from harm.

I come see you at the car park and we can discuss it further.

Weird topic. It's all over the place!

As someone who sails, windsurfs, wings, and even kites on holidays..

2 things.
#1 I'f youre parawing/winging etc under wind power. Yep starboard right of way applies. But it's starboards obligation is to hold course and allow port room and time to avoid, and port must alter course. Starboard doesn't have rights that mean everyone must stay away

So if you're on starboard and nearing someone else on Port, pick a course and stick to it. This can be tricky on a foil. If you cannot do that, then it's your responsibility to stay further away from others.

If youre going upwind on a parawing at North haven, then You aren't just passing through on a downwind. You're in the train of riders. So either join in the 'rythm' of the crowded spot,and be ok with people being close to you, or go out to sea on Port and sail around the crowded spot.

2# sail power vs unpowered.
You still have an obligation when unpowered downwinding on a foil or canoe to allow a sail powered craft time and opportunity to avoid after each speed and direction change is made.
So if you're rapidly steering through 90 degrees to stay on bumps when foiling, it's best to just avoid a populated windsurfing/wing foiling/ kiting spot if you can. Windsurfers should also keep clear, knowing the downwinder is changing directions and is dictated by the waves. A bit of space from both parties makes sense here.

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MHSA said..
Weird topic. It's all over the place!

As someone who sails, windsurfs, wings, and even kites on holidays..

2 things.
#1 I'f youre parawing/winging etc under wind power. Yep starboard right of way applies. But it's starboards obligation is to hold course and allow port room and time to avoid, and port must alter course. Starboard doesn't have rights that mean everyone must stay away

So if you're on starboard and nearing someone else on Port, pick a course and stick to it. This can be tricky on a foil. If you cannot do that, then it's your responsibility to stay further away from others.

If youre going upwind on a parawing at North haven, then You aren't just passing through on a downwind. You're in the train of riders. So either join in the 'rythm' of the crowded spot,and be ok with people being close to you, or go out to sea on Port and sail around the crowded spot.

2# sail power vs unpowered.
You still have an obligation when unpowered downwinding on a foil or canoe to allow a sail powered craft time and opportunity to avoid after each speed and direction change is made.
So if you're rapidly steering through 90 degrees to stay on bumps when foiling, it's best to just avoid a populated windsurfing/wing foiling/ kiting spot if you can. Windsurfers should also keep clear, knowing the downwinder is changing directions and is dictated by the waves. A bit of space from both parties makes sense here.

Agree all of that, exactly. The guy on the 18 foot OC1 cannot change course easily is a good point to note.

My key point is that if you did a survey of NH across all craft and sailors you will get very different answers. I am very sure of this. NH is a Petri dish of less and more experienced participants across many disciplines. It's also a mix of Wavesailing type sailors with non. So very complex. Also lots of wind compared to other spots and that day was over 30 knots for a while.

If you assume give way to starboard rules every time in that environment the chances are there will be a collision. There is added complexity in that when getting close on windsurfer at speed no 1 is derisk, e.g. slow down. Going downwind does opposite. If danger close dump the gear to take weight out of it. So if I was getting close to someone unexpectedly on a collision course I would rip up wind to take speed out, regardless of right of way rules.

I give way to everyone on the way in when I would otherwise have right of way as I'm not doing any moves when on the way in under port/starboard rules, even though it conflicts with port starboard rules. I will give way when someone is trying to wave ride while I'm on way out too, which conflicts with waveriding rules (give way when on a wave). I have been sailing at NH a very long time and one of the more experienced windsurfers and I don't think ive perceived port starboard rules being used there by pretty much anyone as an assumption.

Therefore if able to be agile enough not to assume it and be safe, you'll be fine. If you assume port starboard rules for all craft all the time, unlikely to end well if your there long enough.

Big global spots have charts to explain this stuff, but not everyone pays attention (Ion club sample below):


Might be a mute point, but aren't you a foil boarder?

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samcclus said..
I come see you at the car park and we can discuss it further.

Is this a threat? Really?

You can't have it both ways if you have your hanky in your back pocket and 1 minute your under sail and the next your not under power, which is it.
One minute your a parawing and the next your a foilboarder.

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asdmuzak said..

samcclus said..
I come see you at the car park and we can discuss it further.

Is this a threat? Really?

You can't have it both ways if you have your hanky in your back pocket and 1 minute your under sail and the next your not under power, which is it.
One minute your a parawing and the next your a foilboarder.

Is that a new generation thing to prefer the keyboard? And face to face discussion is considered a threat? Yes that's it, hanky foil surfing and yes you can have it both ways.

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samcclus said..

asdmuzak said..

samcclus said..
I come see you at the car park and we can discuss it further.

Is this a threat? Really?

You can't have it both ways if you have your hanky in your back pocket and 1 minute your under sail and the next your not under power, which is it.
One minute your a parawing and the next your a foilboarder.

Is that a new generation thing to prefer the keyboard? And face to face discussion is considered a threat? Yes that's it, hanky foil surfing and yes you can have it both ways.

Come down the car park, talk it out,
I'll be there later
You sound pretty highly strung over something that hasn't happened.
I'm way past the new generation mate.
You're basically saying obey the yachting rules when you have your hanky out and don't when it's in your pocket.

About time there's an entertaining thread .

Wow, I go to WA for 3 weeks and miss out on all the fun. Im now totally confused reading all this and my brain hurts.

Back Off Warchild

You, me, carpark now ?

So Scott. Very pissed if it's u, should know better. You are one of our best. So angry. \Ready to be punched out by u and your mates for no reason. I'm very angry.. Thing and now realise it was probably me.either crash into 30 feet distance. So angry.

Jeff, at no stage did I ever suggest this, your reading too much into it. Please go back and read what I wrote. Some of our mutual friends have enjoyed winding it up. It is obviously very quiet on the SB front lately. I just wanted to point it out the rules because a collision is not what anyone wants. It's obviously had some affect as it's been much more orderly the last few days. Don't sweat it. You annoyed me a little when you said go ride elsewhere but you know that's not going to happen I live local. None of the dw crew are passive aggressive. I did come down the car park other night to see you and Ian but you guys had left already. There's more risk we share a beer while we chat than get angry. Peace

Ok