GoPro Max

To long didn't read version: Great camera very poor software support. For full review read on.

The Max is the latest 360 camera from GoPro. It has two 180 degree fish eye lenses as well as a GPS chip. The Max can also do regular video at 1080p 60 fps super wide view and this is where the gps would be more useful. I'm not sure how wide the view is but with a fish eye lens I suspect it's quite wide. GoPro also claims improved stabilisation and 360 audio with reduced wind noise. 360 audio doesn't really interest me but I can report that the stabilisation is extremely good and the reduced wind noise is definitely improved. Hardware and feature wise the MAX is a great camera but unfortunately that's where the good news ends. The problem is software support, or lack of.

Currently it is not possible to edit .360 degree footage with the GoPro Quik desktop app. The app can't recognise the files. It is possible to edit 360 files using the mobile app but I can't comment on how well it works as I haven't tried it. I have read reports of long transfer and encoding times and phones getting hot. Considering the work a cell phone is being asked to do I'm not surprised.

It is possible to edit and encode .360 video on a desktop, the bad news is you need adobe premiere to do it. Now don't get me wrong, adobe premiere is a superior piece of software, it's lean, fast and efficient. The learning curve can be a bit steep but it's far from impossible. I had to watch a youtube video to learn how to export my movie but the rest I was able to figure out. The problem is the 29$ au a month it costs to rent it.

The bad news also doesn't quite stop there. Before you can even edit the movies you need to export them and the exporting software is similarly bad. It is improving though. PC users need to use the GoPro max exporter program which is still in development. At first the program only exported in cineform format which resulted in good quality but very large files. typically a 4gb file would export to about 19gb and these files contained about 8 minutes of footage. This resulted in lengthy export times and large files but good quality video. There has recently been an update to the Max exporter with once again good and bad news. The good news is HEVC and H264 support. YAY! The bad news is cineform currently not working and HEVC and H264 currently only export in 4k and not the 5.6 k resolution required for good quality footage. The file sizes are vastly reduced though, rough 10% of the size of the cineform files. I was able to recover some of the video quality by upping the export settings in premiere but this bumped my export times out to 3 to 4 hours. This is not premiere's fault I just need a new computer.

Mac desktop users may also export .360 files using the GoPro Player app however PC users can only play 360 movies and not export. One criticism of the GoPro Player is that you cannot queue up exports but this is a minor issue imo. I can't really comment further on mac programs as I'm not a mac user.

The GoPro forums contain a lot of angry rants from people demanding answers and threatening to return the camera. most are valid complaints but some people haven't done their homework. Poor software support is not a new issue at all with GoPro, This situation goes back several generations and seems to be policy. I think it in some part reflects the markets GoPro is targeting and I believe this is expecially so of the MAX, which I believe is aimed at vloggers more than action cam users. Based on the youtube reviews I have seen most vlog makers seem to love the MAX, although a lot have also critised the software support.

I still believe the Max is a great action cam but there are limitations to where you can mount it. Basically the MAX hates being too close to anything. It messes with the stitching of the two halves of the video. The Max is meant to be used on the end of a stick, which is one of the reasons I believe the Max is aimed at vloggers. The good news is once you mount it properly the mount becomes invisible. I made myself a simple helmet mount using some carbon tube and a 40$ skateboarders helmet from rebel sport. The effect is that it looks like I have a mini drone hovering above my head and the mount is completely invisible. When I mounted the cam directly on my helmet their was a stitching issue but only on the helmet so not that bad actually. The mount shown in the picture gives a great 3rd person view, only really beatable by using a drone.

Personally I don't expect free editing software from GoPro but the problem is they have taken ownership of the 360 files with the new .360 format so they need to provide a way for people to access the damn files. The GoPro forums contain a lot posts from people buying a MAX and taking it home only to be totally unable to edit or watch anything. This has resulted in cameras being returned. Like I said before some of these guys haven't done their homework fully but it's still GoPro's stuff up. Editing 5.6 k 360 video on a phone? Seriously?

I use VLC media player to watch the 360 movies as it gives a great range of zoom compared to youtube, which limits the zoom in and out somewhat but has the advantage of keeping the horizon flat. I have added a couple of vids but resolution is limited due to the current limitations of the MAX exporter. To get the best view zoom all the way out using the keypad minus key(top right of keypad) and simply hold left mouse and pan around.

I recon it's a pretty neat gadget
no issues using it and I only edit on the mobile phone.
its pretty neat to be able to re compose the shot within the footage.
its a major improvement on the first one not only hardware but software wise

Things are looking up for Windows desktop users of the GoPro Max.

A beta version of the GoPro VR player is out that gives windows users the ability to reframe and efficiently encode their footage. As Snides8 mentioned cellphone users were able to reframe and edit from the get go, it was mainly windows desktop users who were left having to export .360 files with a very problematic Max exporter app and then fork out for adobe premiere to edit .360 footage.

With the VR player beta I can open .360 files directly (no exporting to a different format) and easily edit and reframe them. The work flow is vastly quicker and the VR player was easy to use once I figured it out. Encoding the reframed footage is also very quick. The VR player cannot stitch the various edited files together but who cares, there are plenty of free programs that can merge files. I use Hitfilm express(free), GoPro has apps that can do it and you could even do it in Dashware if you wanted to.

For this video I modified my K4 harness mount to a shorter version with a lower cam position for foiling. The Max renders the mounting tube invisible if you mount the cam vertically along the axis of the tube. Panning and zooming range is not quite infinite due to image distortion but it is still possible to get some great angles. I'm stoked with it. Finally lol.

GoPro VR player download link: install.appcenter.ms/orgs/sw-team-devops-rimo/apps/gopro-player-for-windows-beta/distribution_groups/public

This is all a great advance in video technology for our sport. However, I have to ask, what is the advantage of 4k or 5.6k over good ole 1080p for showing our videos on something like youtube? All that resolution is great for watching your videos with stunning clarity on your 75 inch TV, but it is wasted for anything online.

A boring old file format of .mp4 with embedded GPS data (such as what is produced by the GoPro 5 and many others), with not-insane 1080p file sizes of less than 4 gb, is just fine for our purposes. Those files are easy to export, manipulate, edit, and publish. With a 10-year old Windows computer I can do all those things with a 3 gb file in 2 hours. From several hours on camera to a few minutes on youtube, including GPS overlays.

The 360 thing, at this time anyway, seems like overkill. It will be interesting to see where it goes. This really pushes the envelope. Most of us don't have big enough or fast enough envelopes. If GoPro can keep this approachable and doable by us mere mortals with our not-quite-new computers, it will be fabulous.

I'd love a way to get rid of the wizmount pole in my videos..I edit in Power director 16.
Any software that can do it with go Pro hero 6 ?
Nice video.

If you have modest requirements and don't mind seeing a pole or a boom in your video, check this review I submitted a few months ago:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/GPS-Cameras-and-Overlay-Rendering-Software

I archive all my sessions with a GPS watch, and video-record a few sessions each season.

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Cluffy said..
The Insta360 one is a cheap option but you will need a waterproof case which about $150 on top of the price of the cam.

I'd recommend against the Insta360. I bought one 4 weeks ago and thorough test it but returned it. It had to major flaws:

1) The camera can't record more than 25 minutes continuously before it overheats and shuts down. My infrared thermometer showed the housing to be 53 degrees C when the camera turns off.

2) Once the camera heats up more than 20 degrees above the surrounding air temperature the lens will fog up on the inside. This indicates moisture inside the lens assembly.

I have heard from others that you can't use the camera for windsurfing unless you use the underwater housing. I didn't experience that but then again I only used it twice for about 30 minutes in the ocean.

I have tested a GoPro MAX and that didn't seem to overheat. You can continuously record until either the battery runs out (approx 60 minutes) or the memory card (8 minutes of video in 360 use up 4 Gbytes).

Another downside of the Insta360 is that it doesn't have build in GPS. So you can't do the speed overlay without being tethered to either a phone or Apple Watch.

I also found the workflow on the GoPro MAX better. While on first impression the Insta360 mobile feels better and has more features it has one major problem. You can't export in UHD. The desktop app also has two major problems:

1) You can't save sections of 360 footage into a new file. Especially with long clips this means you have to edit and reframe everything as a single clip. This uses up crazy amounts of storage very quickly. The GoPro Desktop App allows you lift sections and safe them as new clips.

2) You can't safe any of the reframing edits. For example say you reframe a particular section and then want to reframe it again to a slightly different angle you loose all the first reframed points. While the GoPro app can't safe the reframe points either it does allow you to lift the section including re-framing into a new clip you can save separately.

Lastly the Insta360 One R doesn't footage can't be played directly in FinalCut Pro without first transcoding it via the app.

On the plus side the image quality of the Insta 360 One R was slightly better than the GoPro Max. You could also remote control it from the Apple Watch. Although this didn't help much on the water because once your fingers are wet you can't control the Apple Watch screen properly.

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Cluffy said..

segler said..
If you have modest requirements and don't mind seeing a pole or a boom in your video, check this review I submitted a few months ago:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/GPS-Cameras-and-Overlay-Rendering-Software

I archive all my sessions with a GPS watch, and video-record a few sessions each season.

Thanks for the link. That RaceRender looks good, especially the 360 degree support. GoPro doesn't allow other software to open the 360 files but there is a workaround. If you encode a raw 360 file in the VR player without trimming or reframing it will encode the movie in 360 degree format that you can then load into other programs. This process is actually dramatically faster than exporting 360 files using the Max exporter.

When I'm using my Hero 5 Dashware is all I need. I like the workflow of Dashware it's clean and quick. The gauges are also very customisable. If you encode an unedited GoPro file Dashware makes a separate file of the gps data which can be handy. I only go into Hitfilm express when I want to do picture in picture. These are the gauges I made up from some existing dashware gauges:

Sue you need a 360 cam if you really want to make the pole disappear. I like the invisible stick effect but it's the super wide panoramic shots that a 360 cam can give you that I really like. The Insta360 one is a cheap option but you will need a waterproof case which about $150 on top of the price of the cam.

www.insta360.com/product/insta360-one/

Hi Cluffy

This looks so good. Which pole are you using and do you have any tips on how to mount to harness?

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Cluffy said..

thedoor said..

Cluffy said..

segler said..
If you have modest requirements and don't mind seeing a pole or a boom in your video, check this review I submitted a few months ago:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/GPS-Cameras-and-Overlay-Rendering-Software

I archive all my sessions with a GPS watch, and video-record a few sessions each season.

Thanks for the link. That RaceRender looks good, especially the 360 degree support. GoPro doesn't allow other software to open the 360 files but there is a workaround. If you encode a raw 360 file in the VR player without trimming or reframing it will encode the movie in 360 degree format that you can then load into other programs. This process is actually dramatically faster than exporting 360 files using the Max exporter.

When I'm using my Hero 5 Dashware is all I need. I like the workflow of Dashware it's clean and quick. The gauges are also very customisable. If you encode an unedited GoPro file Dashware makes a separate file of the gps data which can be handy. I only go into Hitfilm express when I want to do picture in picture. These are the gauges I made up from some existing dashware gauges:

Sue you need a 360 cam if you really want to make the pole disappear. I like the invisible stick effect but it's the super wide panoramic shots that a 360 cam can give you that I really like. The Insta360 one is a cheap option but you will need a waterproof case which about $150 on top of the price of the cam.

www.insta360.com/product/insta360-one/

Hi Cluffy

This looks so good. Which pole are you using and do you have any tips on how to mount to harness?

G'day mate, it's a standard K4 harness mount. It comes with instructions and mounting gear included. You may notice I have added a bit of padding inside the harness to make it more of a snug fit to reduce the wobble a bit. Even so the pole can get quite wobbly in choppy water. This is not a problem when foiling of course :-) . I notice they have added an option for a 360 mount. This is very hand I'll be getting one of those.
www.k4fins.com/product/standard-extended-k4-harness-mount/

There is also the Wizmount. The footage is a lot more stable than the K4 but I prefer not to wear the backpack. Still a popular option though.
www.wizmount.com/products/cu2pack/

OK cool. I would probably use an old harness if I was going to permafix the mount. They have this plate that looks removable but not sure how good it is

www.k4fins.com/product/k4-mount-plate/

The gopro max looks pretty good. They do have insta 360 ones on sale for about half the price of the gopro when you add the case so that is tempting too

store.insta360.com/product/one?_ga=2.44734372.1699711784.1593626395-216514315.1593626395&_gac=1.149345732.1593642378.Cj0KCQjw6PD3BRDPARIsAN8pHuEAmDAkMdVJJeBnVaGzNvoGt3XAXp0MlOPipJuPeiXCBbn76uOnE0IaAlexEALw_wcB

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Cluffy said..
The insta products received a bit of positive opinion as a sort of blow back from disgruntled MAX users on the GoPro forums.

From what I read and hear behind the scenes Insta360 is essentially flooding the influencer market with free cameras. In return influencer post rave reviews on YouTube and the general interweb.

In addition to my own experience I have now had offline exchanges with some other people that looked at the Insta360 One R for professional use. They all came to the same conclusion. The biggest problem is the overheating of the camera during prolonged use (10 to 45 minutes depending on ambient temperature).

Most productions use action cameras by putting them into a tight spot and then start recording. With a 360 camera you can for the most part ignore the framing as you can easily re-frame in post. It's a problem though when you can't rely on the camera actually recording.

I have seen one solution where someone managed to extend the recording time past 1 hour by attaching a heat sync to the main camera module. However you can't use it with the 360 mod. I had stuck mine in the fridge to see if that made a difference and even there it overheated after 50 minutes.

Insta360 have reached out to me recommending to record in H.264 and to set the screen to auto turn off while recording. That didn't make much of difference for me so I returned it.

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Mainly because it was actually possible to edit footage on PC without needing Adobe Premiere.

I am no Mac and FinalCut Pro X. The Insta360 software looks great at first look but falls apart once you start manual reframing.

The reframing controls on the GoPro Max software for Mac is responsive and fast to use. Yes it lacks the auto features of the Insta360 studio software but to be honest when I actually did some processing of real world footage I didn't really like the automatically generated clips.

I think overall both the GoPro and Insta360 software could be better. Unfortunately the 360 camera market is probably too small for a third party company to release a better piece of software.

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stehsegler said..

thedoor said..
They have this plate that looks removable but not sure how good it is
www.k4fins.com/product/k4-mount-plate/

I have used the removable plate for a couple of years now. As long as you tighten it properly it works as well as the fixed plate. Plus you can easily switch it between riders.

When you use a K4 mount with a 360 camera the pole gets stitched out. This doesn't happen with the Wizmount. As for stable footage this isn't really a problem with the latest 360 cameras as the have flow stabilisation which works incredible well.

The gopro max looks pretty good. They do have insta 360 ones on sale for about half the price of the gopro when you add the case so that is tempting too

Be ware of products that are about to be discontinued. Unlike regular action cameras that record in stock standard mp4 most 360 record in a proprietary format. Once the manufacturer stop support for that in their software you are stuck. Also neither the GoPro Fusion nor the Insta360 One or One X have flow stabilisation. This is something found only in the Insta360 One R and GoPro Max.

OK good info. I would likely go for the gopro max then.

Do you think I could use this pole, or something similar, with the k4 mount?

www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1437241-REG/insta360_222186_selfie_stick_for_one.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=CjwKCAjwrvv3BRAJEiwAhwOdM9E1GhSWduZW3j-66FEHMkcbT_8s4vzy-6msBT6mI53BT-rEc6vuLhoCbHcQAvD_BwE

Thanks again