Hi ,
Trying to see which posts used Doppler Devices in the Early days for GPSTC.
Only for my information and no other reason as only started GPSTC in 2014.

Data from November 2009.

Could you please clarify post that has a mix of Doppler and "T."


Were trackpoint "X" from a none Doppler device?

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said..
Hi ,
Trying to see which posts used Doppler Devices in the Early days for GPSTC.
Only for my information and no other reason as only started GPSTC in 2014.

Data from November 2009.

Could you please clarify post that has a mix of Doppler and "T."


Were trackpoint "X" from a none Doppler device?

Back in 2009 we were switching from the GT11 to the GT31. It was recommended at the time that GT11 alphas use trackpoints. But I'm not sure why hour and distance are also trackpoints in this example. Except I think the software default at the time was to give distance in trackpoints.

Here's a typical post from Mandurah Mob 31/12/09
Hardie,30.927(D)29.686(D)13.37(D)22.252(T)28.623(D)29.569(T)
Adam31.524(D)28.92(D)14.048(D)18.076(D)24.602(D)30.74(D)
Decrepit28.36(D)25.86(D)0(D)16.76(T)19.73(D)20.754(D)
Bender35.978(D)33.051(D)17.186(D)22.167(T)32.154(D)67.1(D)

So I was still using a GT11 and posted a trackpoint alpha, Adam was probably using a GT31 and all doppler. Hardie was using a GT11 and used the default Realspeed distance. All of us used doppler for everything else.

I have a feeling that "X" meant unknown, but I'm not sure. It may have been for Garmins with no doppler.

Select to expand quote

decrepit said..

Cocky2 said..
Hi ,
Trying to see which posts used Doppler Devices in the Early days for GPSTC.
Only for my information and no other reason as only started GPSTC in 2014.

Data from November 2009.

Could you please clarify post that has a mix of Doppler and "T."


Were trackpoint "X" from a none Doppler device?

It may have been for Garmins with no doppler.

Yep the X was for Garmins, when GPSTC started sailors were using Garmins and GT11's, at the time Garmins were trackpoint and the GT11's were doppler so the D & X was to differentiate results. At the time I was captain of FNQM the Garmins were a PIA, I was so happy when team mates moved away from them.

Here is one section from 2008... thinking all sailors were using GT-11 devices. EVERYTHING has an 'X' after it.

Look what I found...
my original GPSTC device. (Pre GT-11)
Over 17yrs old; not turned on for12yrs and it still fires up. they don't make them like that anymore...

Since we're so fickle about today's devices and result accuracy why not just remove those ones with the X?
Surely no one today relies on those results for PB's... its been almost, if not over, 10yrs... another good way to clean up DB since we're booting out non-posting members.

What!!!!??? That is the history of Australian Windsurfing and the GPSTC you are talking about deleting!!!

Hell NO!

Just what would be the purpose of that anyhow

Personally, I don't agree with this disrespectful booting out currently non active members of teams to some 'retired' list either. Speaking for our team, we have a very proud and stellar history since the very beginning of the GPSTC. It's great to look back at those posts and the people who shaped and created our history, and we are proud to have each and every currently non active member, and all their results, listed in our team as long as the GPSTC lasts. They are part of US.

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..
What!!!!??? That is the history of Australian Windsurfing and the GPSTC you are talking about deleting!!!

Hell NO!

Just what would be the purpose of that anyhow

Personally, I don't agree with this disrespectful booting out currently non active members of teams to some 'retired' list either. Speaking for our team, we have a very proud and stellar history since the very beginning of the GPSTC. It's great to look back at those posts and the people who shaped and created our history, and we are proud to have each and every currently non active member, and all their results, listed in our team as long as the GPSTC lasts. They are part of US.

I agree.

I suppose that at any point in time, new technology may afford us more accurate and unquestionable data/results. That is the nature of technology!
Would we want to delete our data history every time we have an advance in data accuracy!
I am waiting for the device that produces combined video and gps data to give unquestionable support for records etc...where I could see my 10sec on run, so as to learn from it. I am sure it is somewhere in the pipeline...
P.S. I love 'Devil's advocate' comments like above... brings out valid and often deep discussions. This can only be for the betterment of our sport.

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..
What!!!!??? That is the history of Australian Windsurfing and the GPSTC you are talking about deleting!!!

Hell NO!

Just what would be the purpose of that anyhow

Personally, I don't agree with this disrespectful booting out currently non active members of teams to some 'retired' list either. Speaking for our team, we have a very proud and stellar history since the very beginning of the GPSTC. It's great to look back at those posts and the people who shaped and created our history, and we are proud to have each and every currently non active member, and all their results, listed in our team as long as the GPSTC lasts. They are part of US.

Andrew,
would it not be easy to create a retired team for each current team instead of just state?
Not sure what sport you have ever done where it contains all the previous names and data from those retired members in the current team?

Many people have been in multiple teams and changed team names so this data is not accurate anyway.

Select to expand quote

decrepit said..

Cocky2 said..
Hi ,
Trying to see which posts used Doppler Devices in the Early days for GPSTC.
Only for my information and no other reason as only started GPSTC in 2014.

Data from November 2009.

Could you please clarify post that has a mix of Doppler and "T."


Were trackpoint "X" from a none Doppler device?

Back in 2009 we were switching from the GT11 to the GT31. It was recommended at the time that GT11 alphas use trackpoints. But I'm not sure why hour and distance are also trackpoints in this example. Except I think the software default at the time was to give distance in trackpoints.

Here's a typical post from Mandurah Mob 31/12/09
Hardie,30.927(D)29.686(D)13.37(D)22.252(T)28.623(D)29.569(T)
Adam31.524(D)28.92(D)14.048(D)18.076(D)24.602(D)30.74(D)
Decrepit28.36(D)25.86(D)0(D)16.76(T)19.73(D)20.754(D)
Bender35.978(D)33.051(D)17.186(D)22.167(T)32.154(D)67.1(D)

So I was still using a GT11 and posted a trackpoint alpha, Adam was probably using a GT31 and all doppler. Hardie was using a GT11 and used the default Realspeed distance. All of us used doppler for everything else.

I have a feeling that "X" meant unknown, but I'm not sure. It may have been for Garmins with no doppler.

Mike,
Thanks for info .
Why would Trackpoint be used if you had Doppler from GT11?
GT 11 had satellite data for validation.
Makes no sense as Trackpoint is far from accurate .

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said.. >>>> Why would Trackpoint be used if you had Doppler from GT11?
GT 11 had satellite data for validation.
Makes no sense as Trackpoint is far from accurate .

What do you mean by sat data verification? There certainly was no SDoP with the GT11. The only sat data was doppler, trackpoints and number of sats, no "verification" there, maybe sat numbers are an indication, of potential accuracy.

I can't help too much for reasons, this was back when I was very new to the support. I just went along with the technical support team's recommendations. But I think at that time, it was considered that the GT11's doppler alpha underrated the score, something to do with the gybe I think. So trackpoints were recommended.

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said..

decrepit said..

Cocky2 said..
Hi ,
Trying to see which posts used Doppler Devices in the Early days for GPSTC.
Only for my information and no other reason as only started GPSTC in 2014.

Data from November 2009.

Could you please clarify post that has a mix of Doppler and "T."


Were trackpoint "X" from a none Doppler device?

Back in 2009 we were switching from the GT11 to the GT31. It was recommended at the time that GT11 alphas use trackpoints. But I'm not sure why hour and distance are also trackpoints in this example. Except I think the software default at the time was to give distance in trackpoints.

Here's a typical post from Mandurah Mob 31/12/09
Hardie,30.927(D)29.686(D)13.37(D)22.252(T)28.623(D)29.569(T)
Adam31.524(D)28.92(D)14.048(D)18.076(D)24.602(D)30.74(D)
Decrepit28.36(D)25.86(D)0(D)16.76(T)19.73(D)20.754(D)
Bender35.978(D)33.051(D)17.186(D)22.167(T)32.154(D)67.1(D)

So I was still using a GT11 and posted a trackpoint alpha, Adam was probably using a GT31 and all doppler. Hardie was using a GT11 and used the default Realspeed distance. All of us used doppler for everything else.

I have a feeling that "X" meant unknown, but I'm not sure. It may have been for Garmins with no doppler.

Mike,
Thanks for info .
Why would Trackpoint be used if you had Doppler from GT11?
GT 11 had satellite data for validation.
Makes no sense as Trackpoint is far from accurate .

Ian, absolutely no idea. The ones I displayed were not mine, but were of sailors who I am pretty sure were all using the GT-11s. So long ago I can't remember what the rules etc were back then. Was just interested in your original question and pulled up some postings from a team on a day way back then.

In my team there are a few people that enlisted and then never posted a session , should we keep them too ?

Select to expand quote

powersloshin said..
In my team there are a few people that enlisted and then never posted a session , should we keep them too ?

That is a different situation from what I was referring to.

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said..
would it not be easy to create a retired team for each current team instead of just state?
Not sure what sport you have ever done where it contains all the previous names and data from those retired members in the current team?
Many people have been in multiple teams and changed team names so this data is not accurate anyway.

It probably would be technically possible, but what would be the point? What would it add except a whole lot of extra teams to 'clutter up' the teams list? And add additional work for the Administrators. For what?

Currently you can go to the Pit Crew team list and click on the names of sailors like Mal Wright and see what speeds he did and read his comments and about his equipment etc. You can see how they went compared to other sailors in the team that still post, and other sailors on other teams who were at the same venue on the same day

If those sailor are in a 'retired' team who would ever look for them, even if they knew where to look? For another example, look up the results from 27-09-19 from the Pit Crew, and then look at results from other teams on that date for people who were also at the PiT.

Then again, if you are just not interested in that stuff, just don't bother, it does not matter to you anyhow.

Again, I just don't get it? Why this obsession from some people about having people on a team list who don't sail anymore, or rarely sail? It's just a list and you dont have to look at it. Must be some OCD thing I recon.

SOME people have been in multiple teams. So what? They still appear in the results of the teams they were in at the time when you look up a past date. And the results are indeed accurate to the standard of the day, as are the team competition results for those months and years.

The retired teams (and Memorial team) also add an additional workload for the Admin who must remember to make each retired team visible each year. This is required because if there are no posts from a team in any month, that team does not appear in the teams List at all for that month and if there are no posts for the year, they don't appear in the teams list for that year.

Surely you have more productive and relevant things to occupy your mind Ian?

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..

Cocky2 said..
would it not be easy to create a retired team for each current team instead of just state?
Not sure what sport you have ever done where it contains all the previous names and data from those retired members in the current team?
Many people have been in multiple teams and changed team names so this data is not accurate anyway.

It probably would be technically possible, but what would be the point? What would it add except a whole lot of extra teams to 'clutter up' the teams list? And add additional work for the Administrators. For what?

Currently you can go to the Pit Crew team list and click on the names of sailors like Mal Wright and see what speeds he did and read his comments and about his equipment etc. You can see how they went compared to other sailors in the team that still post, and other sailors on other teams who were at the same venue on the same day

If those sailor are in a 'retired' team who would ever look for them, even if they knew where to look? For another example, look up the results from 27-09-19 from the Pit Crew, and then look at results from other teams on that date for people who were also at the PiT.

Then again, if you are just not interested in that stuff, just don't bother, it does not matter to you anyhow.

Again, I just don't get it? Why this obsession from some people about having people on a team list who don't sail anymore, or rarely sail? It's just a list and you dont have to look at it. Must be some OCD thing I recon.

SOME people have been in multiple teams. So what? They still appear in the results of the teams they were in at the time when you look up a past date. And the results are indeed accurate to the standard of the day, as are the team competition results for those months and years.

The retired teams (and Memorial team) also add an additional workload for the Admin who must remember to make each retired team visible each year. This is required because if there are no posts from a team in any month, that team does not appear in the teams List at all for that month and if there are no posts for the year, they don't appear in the teams list for that year.

Surely you have more productive and relevant things to occupy your mind Ian?

The team Captain's were sent an email from GPSTC admin requesting them to submit names up for retired team.

These Retired Teams were created by GPSTC admin.

Looks like only SEQ ,MBM and some WA teams complied with this directive.

Did not know we could pick and choose what GPSTC admin requests us to do ?

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..

Cocky2 said..
would it not be easy to create a retired team for each current team instead of just state?
Not sure what sport you have ever done where it contains all the previous names and data from those retired members in the current team?
Many people have been in multiple teams and changed team names so this data is not accurate anyway.

It probably would be technically possible, but what would be the point? What would it add except a whole lot of extra teams to 'clutter up' the teams list? And add additional work for the Administrators. For what?

Currently you can go to the Pit Crew team list and click on the names of sailors like Mal Wright and see what speeds he did and read his comments and about his equipment etc. You can see how they went compared to other sailors in the team that still post, and other sailors on other teams who were at the same venue on the same day

If those sailor are in a 'retired' team who would ever look for them, even if they knew where to look? For another example, look up the results from 27-09-19 from the Pit Crew, and then look at results from other teams on that date for people who were also at the PiT.

Then again, if you are just not interested in that stuff, just don't bother, it does not matter to you anyhow.

Again, I just don't get it? Why this obsession from some people about having people on a team list who don't sail anymore, or rarely sail? It's just a list and you dont have to look at it. Must be some OCD thing I recon.

SOME people have been in multiple teams. So what? They still appear in the results of the teams they were in at the time when you look up a past date. And the results are indeed accurate to the standard of the day, as are the team competition results for those months and years.

The retired teams (and Memorial team) also add an additional workload for the Admin who must remember to make each retired team visible each year. This is required because if there are no posts from a team in any month, that team does not appear in the teams List at all for that month and if there are no posts for the year, they don't appear in the teams list for that year.

Surely you have more productive and relevant things to occupy your mind Ian?

The team Captain's were sent an email from GPSTC admin requesting them to submit names up for retired team.

These Retired Teams were created by GPSTC admin.

Looks like only SEQ and MBM complied with this directive.

Did not know we could pick and choose what GPSTC admin requests us to do ?

Remember this is the festive season. Let's keep this nice. The wind will eventually blow again.

It's my understanding that it was an option not a directive from GPSTC. In the case of the MBM, each inactive team member was first asked by Glynn if they wanted to transfer before being transferred. Only those who chose were transferred. I know of at least one team member who chose to stay.

Select to expand quote

TRIMMER said..

sailquik said..

Cocky2 said..
would it not be easy to create a retired team for each current team instead of just state?
Not sure what sport you have ever done where it contains all the previous names and data from those retired members in the current team?
Many people have been in multiple teams and changed team names so this data is not accurate anyway.

It probably would be technically possible, but what would be the point? What would it add except a whole lot of extra teams to 'clutter up' the teams list? And add additional work for the Administrators. For what?

Currently you can go to the Pit Crew team list and click on the names of sailors like Mal Wright and see what speeds he did and read his comments and about his equipment etc. You can see how they went compared to other sailors in the team that still post, and other sailors on other teams who were at the same venue on the same day

If those sailor are in a 'retired' team who would ever look for them, even if they knew where to look? For another example, look up the results from 27-09-19 from the Pit Crew, and then look at results from other teams on that date for people who were also at the PiT.

Then again, if you are just not interested in that stuff, just don't bother, it does not matter to you anyhow.

Again, I just don't get it? Why this obsession from some people about having people on a team list who don't sail anymore, or rarely sail? It's just a list and you dont have to look at it. Must be some OCD thing I recon.

SOME people have been in multiple teams. So what? They still appear in the results of the teams they were in at the time when you look up a past date. And the results are indeed accurate to the standard of the day, as are the team competition results for those months and years.

The retired teams (and Memorial team) also add an additional workload for the Admin who must remember to make each retired team visible each year. This is required because if there are no posts from a team in any month, that team does not appear in the teams List at all for that month and if there are no posts for the year, they don't appear in the teams list for that year.

Surely you have more productive and relevant things to occupy your mind Ian?

Hit the nail on the head with the OCD thing, few other things going on too.
Most of us have learned to ignore MR OCD2 ,cokcfagOBHTErArdFATFCkUEr.

Pretty poor form here Shannon...

The conversation was about keeping incorrect data in the DB... I was the one that related it to the GPSTC admin email to the captains about retiring/archiving members that haven't sailed for X months... seemed it was easier to latch on and discuss this than the OP's post... then we get down to petty insults when no valid retorts are possible... today's society eh?

We are supposed to learn and fix past wrongs, but if the GPSTC admin team want to keep incorrect data as a reference then so be it... it'll fit in nicely with their "Sun revolves around the Earth" and "The earth is flat" volumes too.

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said..
The team Captain's were sent an email from GPSTC admin requesting them to submit names up for retired team.

These Retired Teams were created by GPSTC admin.

Looks like only SEQ ,MBM and some WA teams complied with this directive.

Did not know we could pick and choose what GPSTC admin requests us to do ?

From memory, the retired teams were created, because sailors marked inactive, no longer had a public data base. It was created as a solution to this problem. And it wasn't a request to team captains to submit names for transfer, it was merely a notification, that this was now possible.

As Sailquick says, some captains are in favour of the idea, some aren't.
As far as I'm concerned it's a captain's decision what they do with their team.

EDIT,
Finally found it, my email to team captains.
_____________________________-
"Hi Captains.

I've just created state based "retired" teams. This is so the PBs of deactivated sailors, are still publicly available.

Instead of making them inactive they are just transferred to their retired team. If you have any body in your team that would be better off in the retired team rather than just being inactive, send a message via the GPSTC website.

The other thing is the Memorial team, it seems not everybody is aware of this, when a deceased sailor is transferred there, a eulogy can be included in their details. Same as above if you'd like anybody transferred there message from the website and include a eulogy. "
_________________________________________________--

Is that ambiguous? Could it be construed as a request? Sorry if that's the case.

OK, I see my mistake, the word "inactive" is ambiguous. In this instance it doesn't mean a team member that's not sailing. It means a sailor that has been already marked "inactive" by admin at the request of the team captain to "delete" them. We don't delete sailors, that has a negative affect on the data base, we mark as inactive instead. This has the result of removing them from public view, but they are still in the database. I guess I assumed team captains would know what I meant, as we've had this conversation with most of them.

Having started life using a Garmin Geko I understand about the accuracy of the data.

However, as these were cut out around 10 years ago the impact of these posts are negligible if anything at all, as 99.9999% of people would have improved their PB's with more accurate equipment since then, IF you are part of the 0.0001% who haven't improved since the transition then the problem isn't with the GPS.

The reason for track points were used for alpha's was because of calculating issues with doplar when it first came in, Realspeed, GPSar, GPSresults, did a lot of work and remedied this and then things went all over to Doplar, for a while it was hard to crack a PB as Doplar came in lower, but then people naturally improved and PB's started flowing again (except for the 0.0001%).

Personally I think team members should stay in the team as there is history there but a sorting function could possible shuffle them to the end of the list leaving the active members at the top (but that is modifying the site).

I think this is also important as a memory for those no longer with us so we can remember the good times we had sailing with them.

Select to expand quote

Rolz said..
The conversation was about keeping incorrect data in the DB... I was the one that related it to the GPSTC admin email to the captains about retiring/archiving members that haven't sailed for X months... seemed it was easier to latch on and discuss this than the OP's post... then we get down to petty insults when no valid retorts are possible... today's society eh?

We are supposed to learn and fix past wrongs, but if the GPSTC admin team want to keep incorrect data as a reference then so be it... it'll fit in nicely with their "Sun revolves around the Earth" and "The earth is flat" volumes too.

There is NO "incorrect data" in the database. Even if there is some small amount that may not be quite as verifiable as later data, it only has the (remote) potential to affect the team challenge results from pervious years. Past history. Can't be altered now anyhow.

I would add that back before the GT-31 and the complete move to Doppler, and later, the advent of KA-72, much more emphasis was put on personal and team checking of all the posts for 'Spikes' and errors to the extent that it was possible. Everybody in those days had their own analysis software and was obliged to learn how to spot errors, or to have someone more experienced do it for them. This role was often done by the team captains, or a team member who was familiar with the task. Certainly, any PB's and exceptional performances were well scrutinised.

If anyone (Ian) has any specific relevant questions, PM, or ask those experienced people around your team who were part of the GPSTC from the start, or email the GPSTC. You never know, you may learn something without provoking reactions that you are just shatstirring.

Select to expand quote

Cocky2 said..

sailquik said..

Cocky2 said..
would it not be easy to create a retired team for each current team instead of just state?
Not sure what sport you have ever done where it contains all the previous names and data from those retired members in the current team?
Many people have been in multiple teams and changed team names so this data is not accurate anyway.

It probably would be technically possible, but what would be the point? What would it add except a whole lot of extra teams to 'clutter up' the teams list? And add additional work for the Administrators. For what?

Currently you can go to the Pit Crew team list and click on the names of sailors like Mal Wright and see what speeds he did and read his comments and about his equipment etc. You can see how they went compared to other sailors in the team that still post, and other sailors on other teams who were at the same venue on the same day

If those sailor are in a 'retired' team who would ever look for them, even if they knew where to look? For another example, look up the results from 27-09-19 from the Pit Crew, and then look at results from other teams on that date for people who were also at the PiT.

Then again, if you are just not interested in that stuff, just don't bother, it does not matter to you anyhow.

Again, I just don't get it? Why this obsession from some people about having people on a team list who don't sail anymore, or rarely sail? It's just a list and you dont have to look at it. Must be some OCD thing I recon.

SOME people have been in multiple teams. So what? They still appear in the results of the teams they were in at the time when you look up a past date. And the results are indeed accurate to the standard of the day, as are the team competition results for those months and years.

The retired teams (and Memorial team) also add an additional workload for the Admin who must remember to make each retired team visible each year. This is required because if there are no posts from a team in any month, that team does not appear in the teams List at all for that month and if there are no posts for the year, they don't appear in the teams list for that year.

Surely you have more productive and relevant things to occupy your mind Ian?

The team Captain's were sent an email from GPSTC admin requesting them to submit names up for retired team.

These Retired Teams were created by GPSTC admin.

Looks like only SEQ ,MBM and some WA teams complied with this directive.

Did not know we could pick and choose what GPSTC admin requests us to do ?

Some Captains took the common sense approach & cleaned out their teams annually without having to be told, they also checked PBs before KA72 was simply accepted as being correct.
Maybe we should revisit all the PBs that were run through KA72 in the early days.
Back in the day we did what we could with what was available, as did KA72, thing evolve, we now have the luxury of better GPS & software, hindsight is wonderful.
As stated every year when this crap starts, "if you don't like it set up your own competition & run it however you like" ,it's easy ask Hardy & Nebs

Just saying...(in the end, we are playing sport)