Hello

I think I have a Bic Allegro or a copy of this Bic Allegro because it is around 3 meters long and it depicts the same woman and pictures of the picture mentioned somewhere in another thread of this forum although i have read the word "replica" somewhere on my board.

Even though I have already windsurfed a bunch of times, around 20 or so, on 180 liters boards on the sea with not very quiet water, I was able only 2 or 3 times to beach start on these boards but I still did not get to learn it well. The thing is I recenty got this Bic board and I tried to stand up and pull the sail afterwards but it was very hard to keep the balance even if the waves were really small. Whenever a little wave got close, I would fall on the water. That is why I thought this board is only useful for people who already can waterstart.

I wonder now: considering I still cannot even beach start, do you think I could learn on my own how to beach start and later waterstart by using a board such as the Allegro Bic if I had enough patience on the sea shore considering I chose a quiet spot and I have already seen a couple of video tutorials about it? The sail I have is 4.75 meters and it is also kind of heavy to pull compared to the 4.2 or4.5 meters sails that I had used so far.

Thanks a lot for your advices and suggestions in advance.

I don't believe it is a Bic Allegro that you are looking at. The Bic Allegro is a narrow speed board from the 1980s and I don't believe it had the Mike Eskimo graphics of "the lady and associated artwork " and it would be one of the harder boards on which to learn a beach start. It had plainer graphics as I note below although they are Mike Eskimo graphics. It sounds like it is from the 1990s catalogue, so which one of these is it ?




This is the Bic Allegro, a very narrow white (with some deck yellow and turquoise graphics) carbon kevlar "Acetec" speed board from around 1989-1991, somesay it is actually capable of up to 40 knots, rumour has it, but I am not so sure, I would say around 30+ knots max. Even so it is fast but it is pretty narrow (45cm wide) to be learning the beachstart or water start on, but it is learnable, particularly if you are learning in an area where it is shallow so you can practice safely and securely but you will need strong winds. Uphauling on a narrow board like this will be difficult, some may find it impossible, particularly because of the forward mast position, where most of the volume is held. It only has 73 litres of volume, 6.5 kg in weight and 2.75 m long, so almost impossible to uphaul this board unless you are agile, highly competent sailor and a lightweight of say 60kg. It is a "sinker" for most sailors so I believe, and so designed for water starting speed sailing and high winds. There are wider and more voluminous boards in the antique BIC range, which you may have, to learn on some of which are shown above. Whether you can uphaul on them will be a function of your weight, the board volume and buoyancy, but narrow boards are hard to learn to uphaul on, although if you are relatively light and the board has sufficient volume you may be able to uphaul them, with practice. If learning to uphaul best to have a small sail, if learning to water start a bigger sail may help, but that depends on the wind conditions, body weight and other factors.



Anyway, I don't know what board you have but I hope this helps.

Thanks a lot for such a nice and complete explanation. I really appreciate it.

This is my board:



My weight: 150 pounds
My height: 5,808 ft.
My sail: 4,75 meters Bic Sport

By comparing your pictures with my board it seems mine might be Electro Rock 265, isn't it? Anyways it is weird because I guess 265 means 265 cms long but I think my board's length is almost 3 meters long. Do you think mine could be longer because mine is a "replica"?

Finding shallow beachs should not be a problem. I can find them.
Do you think I could try to learn beach start with all this gear I described?

Thanks in advance

you mis-read Electric Rock 295
130 liters and only 60 cm wide
150 pounds is only 68 kilos and so liters are ok
it is the width that is killing you

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joe windsurf said..
you mis-read Electric Rock 295
130 liters and only 60 cm wide
150 pounds is only 68 kilos and so liters are ok
it is the width that is killing you

Thanks Joe!
I guess 130 liters is not that much but I think you are right and it is enough for my weight because the board did not get under water when I stepped on it and the main problem to overcome is the width.

By the way, thanks, you are right, my board must be the Rock 295. I will go to start from the beginning by trying the beach start on a shallow beach with almost no waves at all any day as soon as there is enough wind. I will keep you all updated on the progress. I wish I can learn this without the need to buy a new board.

And could you please give an insight about the wind speed I should look for in the weather forecasts in order to increase the chances of being able to pratice the beach start with my sail, board and weight?
Are 12 knots necessary?

Which country are you sailing in and at what location ?. If you are in Perth I would consider swapping a better learning board (f2 wizzard 125 litres and 65 cm wide) for the Bic Rock.

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RichardG said..
Which country are you sailing in and at what location ?. If you are in Perth I would consider swapping a better learning board (f2 wizzard 125 litres and 65 cm wide) for the Bic Rock.

Thank you Richard! I'm sailing on the Cantabrian Sea near Lugo on the north coast of Spain!

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thosecars822 said..

RichardG said..
Which country are you sailing in and at what location ?. If you are in Perth I would consider swapping a better learning board (f2 wizzard 125 litres and 65 cm wide) for the Bic Rock.

Thank you Richard! I'm sailing on the Cantabrian Sea near Lugo on the north coast of Spain!

No problem, Happy Sailing.

I think the Bic Rock is a good board, although I have never sailed one. I believe it may have been designed by Ken Winner or Stephan Van Den Berg either way the board may say so. I havent seen one here in Perth.

It has been described as follows by someone in the US in 2014:

"I raced a 1994 model Bic Rock 130L (designed in 91) last weekend... in the Gorge slalom races, that I bought brand new. I used UP free-ride sails I also bought back then. The Rock was the bigger version of the 122L Presto. I beat a few people, ALL are on new race gear. But back where we are, everybody is late to the start.. and falls at 1 or 2 jibes each race. So, my gear is fast enough, until I don't fall anymore.."

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RichardG said..

thosecars822 said..

RichardG said..
Which country are you sailing in and at what location ?. If you are in Perth I would consider swapping a better learning board (f2 wizzard 125 litres and 65 cm wide) for the Bic Rock.

Thank you Richard! I'm sailing on the Cantabrian Sea near Lugo on the north coast of Spain!

No problem, Happy Sailing.

I think the Bic Rock is a good board, although I have never sailed one. I believe it may have been designed by Ken Winner or Stephan Van Den Berg either way the board may say so. I havent seen one here in Perth.

It has been described as follows by someone in the US in 2014:

"I raced a 1994 model Bic Rock 130L (designed in 91) last weekend... in the Gorge slalom races, that I bought brand new. I used UP free-ride sails I also bought back then. The Rock was the bigger version of the 122L Presto. I beat a few people, ALL are on new race gear. But back where we are, everybody is late to the start.. and falls at 1 or 2 jibes each race. So, my gear is fast enough, until I don't fall anymore.."

Thanks. Still waiting for windy day here to try the beach start with this gear again :). I can only read "Micke Eskimo graphics" on the board but nothing about someone called Ken Winner or Stephan Van Den Berg.

Try this on a light wind day
Start with no fin in the board, stand next to the board with the sail flying above you. With no fin you can access the very shallow water. The aim of this exercise is to practice sail control.
When the sail control is all good, try moving the nose of the board into and away from where the wind is coming from. Also try placing your back foot onto the board without losing sail control. Back foot goes onto the center line between the F and Rear footstraps.
All good, put fin it and repeat in knee deep water.

Still good. When your back foot is on the board, bring the board close as possible the other leg. Still in control, steer the nose away from the wind (Slightly) and stand onto the board. Sail away with large grin .
For best results have the board at right angles to the wind.

BTW had to describe without pics but this is the basics

If you wish to practice on 12 knots - you need a stable and wide egg shaped board like Starboard GO.

If there is no wind, and you stand upright on such a narrow board like yours everything is wobbly.
Your sail acts as a counterbalance, so you need more wind than 12 knots. Especially with these small sails.

When you step on the board - you don't stand straight - but lean a bit back to counter balance the power in your sail.
So you need some wind in your sail - you and your sail make a "V" on top of your board.

At your weight , I suggest to go for 17 knots wind and more towards 5.5m sail.
Or look for more 20 knots at 4.75, sail.
Stick with shallow water - short runs - until you learn.

Be persistent, and enjoy the process.
I still remember how thrilling was a every little step forward

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kato said..
Try this on a light wind day
Start with no fin in the board, stand next to the board with the sail flying above you. With no fin you can access the very shallow water. The aim of this exercise is to practice sail control.
When the sail control is all good, try moving the nose of the board into and away from where the wind is coming from. Also try placing your back foot onto the board without losing sail control. Back foot goes onto the center line between the F and Rear footstraps.
All good, put fin it and repeat in knee deep water.

Still good. When your back foot is on the board, bring the board close as possible the other leg. Still in control, steer the nose away from the wind (Slightly) and stand onto the board. Sail away with large grin .
For best results have the board at right angles to the wind.

BTW had to describe without pics but this is the basics

Nice explanation
Good one!

The picture above is the 1991 models. Electric Rock is 102 liters, 265 long board and the 1990 graphics look like in the video

E rocks were great boards.
Around 108 liters, at 60 wide, they held sails as big as 7.5's. The one pictured weighted in just under 15 lbs.
TWO of my friends were very successful in Stroh's World Cup Slalom races using E rocks. Both regularly made the semi finals against 64 of the top European Pros, and American's Naish, Sayre, Peterson, Gephardt, and Hartman.
The only modification was moving the back straps back another inch, which could be done by inverting the back strap mounting method alone.
But both guys did add inserts and Tuttle boxes when the rules were laxed a bit by '92.

Thank you very much for all the awesome tips to you all! About taking the fin off, it's the first time I hear anything like that but it seems an excellent good idea. Hopefully next Sunday will be a windy day to try all your tips.

Correction, models above on picture are 1992.

Obelix! You suggested to look for 20 knots or more considering a 4.75 meters sail as mine. If I search for wind forecasts in the internet, there are usually the following two variables available:
- wind speed: I guess average wind speed is meant, right?
- gusts speed. I guess maximum wind speed is meant, right?

What should I compare the 20 knots to in cases such us this, in which a minimum amount of knots is suggested to windsurf? The wind speed? Or the gusts speed? For example I have found today 11 knots as wind speed and 22 knots as gust speed. Would this be a good occasion according to the 20 knots you suggested?

I have also seen that different websites display different forecasts. So it is kinda hard to get to know which one the best forecast displays. Can you suggest the most reliable/best websites, in which it is possible to check this information for free, for the same day, 1 day or two days ahead as much in advance?

It is strange as well that it is possible to see quite often different wind forecasts even if the windforecast I am seeing corresponds to the current time. That is to say no forecast at all but the real value shoud be displayed if the wind speed I want to know corresponds to the current time .

Thanks in advance

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thosecars822 said..
Obelix! You suggested to look for 20 knots or more considering a 4.75 meters sail as mine. If I search for wind forecasts in the internet, there are usually the following two variables available:
- wind speed: I guess average wind speed is meant, right?
- gusts speed. I guess maximum wind speed is meant, right?

What should I compare the 20 knots to in cases such us this, in which a minimum amount of knots is suggested to windsurf? The wind speed? Or the gusts speed? For example I have found today 11 knots as wind speed and 22 knots as gust speed. Would this be a good occasion according to the 20 knots you suggested?

I have also seen that different websites display different forecasts. So it is kinda hard to get to know which one the best forecast displays. Can you suggest the most reliable/best websites, in which it is possible to check this information for free, for the same day, 1 day or two days ahead as much in advance?

It is strange as well that it is possible to see quite often different wind forecasts even if the windforecast I am seeing corresponds to the current time. That is to say no forecast at all but the real value shoud be displayed if the wind speed I want to know corresponds to the current time .

Thanks in advance

Gust vs average - Its' hard to win this one. When I rig for the gusts, I spend a lot of time sitting in the water waiting for gusts. When I rig for "average" I sit in the water - waiting for the gusts to pass.
But this is only for extreme situations. After a while, you will learn how to reduce the pressure on you sail in the gusts.

When I was learning how to waterstart, I was frustrated with myself, wondering why doesn't it work for me.
Eventually, I realised my sail was too small (I'm 100+ kg - used 6m sail)- and there was no lift int he sail to pull 100+ kg out of the water.
Once the wind hit 20+ knots, it started working.

Just fit the 4.75, go in and don't overthink this. If the gusts are too strong, wait for them to pass.
But you must have enough lift - otherwise you won't understand whats' going wrong

Not sure of the best wind site in Spain. While sailing in Croatia I used Windfinder - it seems to cover Lugo:
www.windfinder.com/forecast/lugo

I tried today. There were many windsurfers and kiters on the beach and 13 knots with gusts of up to 24 knots. Beachstart up to the knees was more or less ok.Waterstart was hard though. Could it help getting the boom attached higher on the mast so that the sail pulls me up with more power? After getting home I thought may be this could help me next time I try the waterstart.

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thosecars822 said..
I tried today. There were many windsurfers and kiters on the beach and 13 knots with gusts of up to 24 knots. Beachstart up to the knees was more or less ok.Waterstart was hard though. Could it help getting the boom attached higher on the mast so that the sail pulls me up with more power? After getting home I thought may be this could help me next time I try the waterstart.

I believe raising the boom will make it harder to waterstart. The boom height should be between your shoulder and chin in my opinion and should be selected optimally for sailing. A good rule of thumb is chin height.

Watch the video attached by Tom Luedecke, called Windsurfing Made Easy, at 43:40 and 44:20 for Launching and Waterstart tuition, respectively. It is an old one but I think a good one.

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thosecars822 said..
I tried today. There were many windsurfers and kiters on the beach and 13 knots with gusts of up to 24 knots. Beachstart up to the knees was more or less ok.Waterstart was hard though. Could it help getting the boom attached higher on the mast so that the sail pulls me up with more power? After getting home I thought may be this could help me next time I try the waterstart.

13 knots is almost no wind.
Not many people would water start using a 4.75m sail in 13 knots.
24 knots would probably lift you up on 4.75m sail.