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When is a SUP a Vessel

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Created by RAL INN > 9 months ago, 6 May 2012
RAL INN
SA, 2896 posts
6 May 2012 10:51AM
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In relation to right of way boating rules
And considering a row boat is a vessel as are windsurfers and kitesurfers.

Should SUP's also be considered Vessels and thus be under the control of RoW rules?

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
6 May 2012 7:41PM
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Just like a row boat, sailing boat, etc., a SUP is a vessel and as such is governed by the RoW rules.

Obviously the RoW rules fade to grey when you get into the waves, just as they do for windsurfers. However, a SUP paddling along on the Swan River has to obey the same set of rules as everyone else.

Why do you ask?

Cam11
WA, 13 posts
6 May 2012 7:53PM
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I'm leaning towards guessing so, otherwise they may be considered just floating debris and thus quite okay to run them down...?

d1
WA, 304 posts
6 May 2012 8:08PM
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FlickySpinny said...
Obviously the RoW rules fade to grey when you get into the waves, just as they do for windsurfers.


Sure, waves users require and apply a different etiquette, but could you perhaps expand on your statement that windsurfing right-of-way is a grey area? As far as I'm aware, windsurfers have always used the same rules as any other sailcraft (i.e. starboard over port, overtaking gives way to overtaken, etc...).

WINDY MILLER
WA, 3183 posts
6 May 2012 10:19PM
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me and greeny once got stopped by the fun police paddling back from seals.

He said - we were on a powered vessel more than 200m from shore, without a type 1 life jacket , 3 types of flares and wait for this... an anchor :- we were breaking the law and up for a big fine - he lets us off with a warning...only because by the time he stopped us we were on our way back and close to the imaginary 200m line.

but he did mention it was ok to kite and windsurf this far out without all the above .

also possible to sup 200m offshore if you have a safety boat with you, ... sheesh!




jsnfok
WA, 899 posts
6 May 2012 11:40PM
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WINDY MILLER said...

me and greeny once got stopped by the fun police paddling back from seals.

He said - we were on a powered vessel more than 200m from shore, without a type 1 life jacket , 3 types of flares and wait for this... an anchor :- we were breaking the law and up for a big fine - he lets us off with a warning...only because by the time he stopped us we were on our way back and close to the imaginary 200m line.

but he did mention it was ok to kite and windsurf this far out without all the above .

also possible to sup 200m offshore if you have a safety boat with you, ... sheesh!







did you tell him what you thought of what he does for living and that its a complete joke and maybe he should pursure a worth while job where all that power doesnt go to his head, no other head

Subsonic
WA, 3384 posts
7 May 2012 8:13PM
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jsnfok said...

WINDY MILLER said...

me and greeny once got stopped by the fun police paddling back from seals.

He said - we were on a powered vessel more than 200m from shore, without a type 1 life jacket , 3 types of flares and wait for this... an anchor :- we were breaking the law and up for a big fine - he lets us off with a warning...only because by the time he stopped us we were on our way back and close to the imaginary 200m line.

but he did mention it was ok to kite and windsurf this far out without all the above .

also possible to sup 200m offshore if you have a safety boat with you, ... sheesh!







did you tell him what you thought of what he does for living and that its a complete joke and maybe he should pursure a worth while job where all that power doesnt go to his head, no other head


By seals, do you mean seal island in shoalwater?

If yes, I agree with jsnfok, he's a kook with too much time on his hands

you are not required by law to carry an anchor on a SUP, a sup is definitely not classed as a powered craft either. He did have you on the PFD 1 and flares though.

What scares me is he told you it'd be legal to be without these things in that spot if you were windsurfing/kiting (yes I know we all do it anyway) what scares me is that he really has no idea, and these are the people the government gives the power to run around issuing fines.

Greenroom
WA, 7608 posts
7 May 2012 9:48PM
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What a joke hey Miller. We had a laugh about it and we still kept doing it

FlickySpinny
WA, 657 posts
8 May 2012 9:14AM
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d1 said...

FlickySpinny said...
Obviously the RoW rules fade to grey when you get into the waves, just as they do for windsurfers.


Sure, waves users require and apply a different etiquette, but could you perhaps expand on your statement that windsurfing right-of-way is a grey area? As far as I'm aware, windsurfers have always used the same rules as any other sailcraft (i.e. starboard over port, overtaking gives way to overtaken, etc...).


?????

RoW rules fade to grey when you get into the waves

I'm saying the exact same thing you are saying.

Windsurfers are governed by the RoW rules in the same way as everyone else... until they get into the waves, when the community (not the International Collision Regulations) says they change.

For example, the community says:
Port and Starboard are no longer applicable in the break. Instead the windsurfer heading out has RoW.
Sailor closest to the peak has the right to the wave, etc.

However this can be against the International Collision Regulations, so as a result it is a grey area.

d1
WA, 304 posts
8 May 2012 10:32AM
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Thanks Flicky, understood (finally) and totally agreed. We are saying the same thing, I just misinterpreted your statement as "wave users and windsurfers use different rules"

buckles
VIC, 107 posts
8 May 2012 1:20PM
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This came to me with my boat rego and will answer all your questions.
http://www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/45250/TSV-Paddle-Safe-Paddle-Smart-brochure.pdf

www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/maritime-safety

Chris 249
NSW, 3531 posts
8 May 2012 4:57PM
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I'm not a Vicwegian, but if I was in a fiesty mood I'd take on anyone who claimed that a board was a vessel, which is defined as "any kind of vessel that is used, or capable of being used, in navigation by water, however propelled or moved"...(tautology anyone?) Some other laws define a "vessel" as being "something used in navigation"; sadly in NSW I think windsurfers are expressly caught out by certain laws, but I don't think SUPs are. Things paddled or rowed are expressly said not to be powered vessels in NSW, I think.

This is relevant because there are a couple of old British cases that say that someone messing about in a small boat on a lake or even (if I remember rightly) rowing an "eight" was not "doing navigation" - "navigation" was said to mean going from A to B and not just noodling around. So if you're not "navigating" a board it may not be a vessel.

There was a surf law symposium a few years back where judges and lawyers spoke and it was pretty much agreed that IRPCS would not apply in the surf. I think that the courts (which are a lot more sensible than most people think) would agree that they were impossible to observe in the surf and therefore they would not be applied.



DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
8 May 2012 6:52PM
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buckles said...

This came to me with my boat rego and will answer all your questions.
http://www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/45250/TSV-Paddle-Safe-Paddle-Smart-brochure.pdf

www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/maritime-safety


Awesome, so when you go sup'in you have to (mandatory) carry a bailer unless your SUP is fitted with a manual or electric bilge pump ! Seriously ?

fullmoon
WA, 314 posts
8 May 2012 5:53PM
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DrJ said...

buckles said...

This came to me with my boat rego and will answer all your questions.
http://www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/45250/TSV-Paddle-Safe-Paddle-Smart-brochure.pdf

www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/maritime-safety


Awesome, so when you go sup'in you have to (mandatory) carry a bailer unless your SUP is fitted with a manual or electric bilge pump ! Seriously ?


Swat I thunk too

Anyway , rules are there to be used as a guide by the intelligent and to be blindly followed by the stupid and the incompetent

buckles
VIC, 107 posts
8 May 2012 8:12PM
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DrJ said...

buckles said...

This came to me with my boat rego and will answer all your questions.
http://www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/45250/TSV-Paddle-Safe-Paddle-Smart-brochure.pdf

www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/maritime-safety


Awesome, so when you go sup'in you have to (mandatory) carry a bailer unless your SUP is fitted with a manual or electric bilge pump ! Seriously ?


Yes but the SUP is considered self-bailing so that's already covered. No extra bailing equipment needs to be carried.

DrJ
ACT, 481 posts
8 May 2012 10:47PM
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buckles said...

DrJ said...

buckles said...

This came to me with my boat rego and will answer all your questions.
http://www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/45250/TSV-Paddle-Safe-Paddle-Smart-brochure.pdf

www.transportsafety.vic.gov.au/maritime-safety


Awesome, so when you go sup'in you have to (mandatory) carry a bailer unless your SUP is fitted with a manual or electric bilge pump ! Seriously ?


Yes but the SUP is considered self-bailing so that's already covered. No extra bailing equipment needs to be carried.


Ahhh I see, didn't see that in the leaflet.

buckles
VIC, 107 posts
8 May 2012 11:39PM
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Leaflet states: Bailer (if no electric or manual
bilge pumping system
) Self bailing is included in this. It covers all self bailing craft such as sit on top kayaks, catamarans, sailboards and SUP.

You do need a bailer in a sit in kayak or a canoe.

It's still a bit of a wank. My old canoe was filled with foam at each end to stop it sinking. I bailed the water out by jumping in the water and tipping it upside down. Realisticly, I think if the water is coming in slowly enough to chuck it out with a bucket, then pretty well any boat on inland waters could make it to shore before sinking. Much like our recent life jacket law changes though, they take common sense out of the equation and focus on protecting the stupid.

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
8 May 2012 9:46PM
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When its in the OLYMPICS or when your suppen with surfers riding boards under 7 foot





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"When is a SUP a Vessel" started by RAL INN