I am still a very green beginner that has been sailing full on for about 3 months. I am using a JP funster 145 and am happily sailing back and forth in the harness but my largest 6.5 mt sail, my 90ish Kg in weight, and the normal prevailing winds are not getting me planing.
Soooo, I am looking at getting and using larger sails than my current 6.5 mt but my longest mast is a RDM Matrix x35 430.
Based on research I have done I am thinking I need sails 7.5-8.5 mt. It also seems I will require a bigger fin than the standard learning 36 on the funster. The JP support guy I emailed recommended a 48cm Fin.
As per usual upgrading items brings along the need for getting other pieces - like I will also need a bigger boom to fit the sails. I am considering a 490 mast is the best option. It seems the market price for 490's is cheaper with SDM than with RDM masts?
My questions are -
- if I get a new SDM 490 (cheaper) will I need a new mast extension to fit it or can I use my RDM extension?
- 490 or 460 mast? Can I stretch my sail range onto a RDM 460 so I can use my RDM extensions (bearing in mind I will be using 2nd hand sails)
- Brand - models I know this is somewhat personal preference rather than exact science - If I end up using a cheaper brand constant curve 490 - what brand / model of secondhand sails would be best? Toughness / Durability are important - I am repairing tears in my overused 6.5 mt sail every other week. OR does it not really matter at this stage?
- Fins - smaller / bigger - style OMG so many choices - I don't sail where there are weeds so that rules them out - I want this board to plane damn it - are there winged fins will that help? - I'll buy anything that works :)
Before you go buying a whole bunch of gear you'd be better of working on your technique. Given enough wind you should be able to get the board to plane with the gear you have. Having said this I Beleive the Funster is a bit sluggish as its more oriented around learning / sub planning.
I'd go for a 460 mast. With the more recent sails there are plenty of options that will fit up to 8m. Your rdm extension will not fit an sdm. You could allways buy a bigger sail that uses rdm.
If you want to have the best performance it is best to use the manufacturer recommended mast or as a second option the nearest equivalent.
You need to look at your prevailing wind conditions and then buy sails to suit. As a beginner you should be good with 2 sails. You should invest in a good rig as this is something that you will use for a long time whereas you will be looking to upgrade the board as you progress.
Hey Greg,
I know very little compared to most folks on here, but I think getting a used 460 mast (SDM or RDM- whichever comes up cheap enought) and track down a 7.2 up to say 8 meter freeride sail- no cams, build pretty tough. Basically it seems like you want more grunt at this stage- and some clean, steady wind wouldn't hurt either. Something like this should have you up and running sweetly in about 14 knots up.
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Sails/~afkjb/2012-Neil-Pryde-RssRsrHellcat-77-metre.aspx?search=PPE4JOFi29QV$zvO5peLYQ==
Neil Prydes are a little mast sensitive, but I know where there's a good Neil Pryde 460 STD and 36 cm extension to suit.
Select to expand quote[My questions are -
- if I get a new SDM 490 (cheaper) will I need a new mast extension to fit it or can I use my RDM extension?
- 490 or 460 mast? Can I stretch my sail range onto a RDM 460 so I can use my RDM extensions (bearing in mind I will be using 2nd hand sails)
- Brand - models I know this is somewhat personal preference rather than exact science - If I end up using a cheaper brand constant curve 490 - what brand / model of secondhand sails would be best? Toughness / Durability are important - I am repairing tears in my overused 6.5 mt sail every other week. OR does it not really matter at this stage?
- Fins - smaller / bigger - style OMG so many choices - I don't sail where there are weeds so that rules them out - I want this board to plane damn it - are there winged fins will that help? - I'll buy anything that works :)
MAst extensions are not compatable due to thickness
If you choose a to use a long extension make sure its strong as in the uppers limits of the extension .
Brand and models for masts sorry it is exact science , ensure the mast suits the sail . The incorrect mast will reduce the power of the sail effecting the ability to get up on the plane , an old sail correctly shaped is better than a new sail incorrectly shaped . If you want to save money stick with 35% carbon.
As for the fins being winged love your thinking Ben Lexson would be proud . 
I would refer to you board chart found on the iternet to determin correct size of fin which your probable right a 48cm , I use a 36 on a 115L Tab Rocket .
Select to expand quotePhilSWR said..
Hey Greg,
I know very little compared to most folks on here, but I think getting a used 460 mast (SDM or RDM- whichever comes up cheap enought) and track down a 7.2 up to say 8 meter freeride sail- no cams, build pretty tough. Basically it seems like you want more grunt at this stage- and some clean, steady wind wouldn't hurt either. Something like this should have you up and running sweetly in about 14 knots up.
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Sails/~afkjb/2012-Neil-Pryde-RssRsrHellcat-77-metre.aspx?search=PPE4JOFi29QV$zvO5peLYQ==
Neil Prydes are a little mast sensitive, but I know where there's a good Neil Pryde 460 STD and 36 cm extension to suit.
Wouldn't be located anywhere near An old convict jail by any chance?
Next trip down you can use one of my bigger sails and see if that gets you moving. Tues and Weds are looking good.
So the general advice has been to get a 460 even though this will limit the max size to about an 8mt sail. I am assuming this would be to make purchasing a RDM mast more affordable and thus to not need a new extension?
I would just worried that I may need something slightly bigger sometimes and would then need to buy a 490 as well. Mind you I have started a diet and exercise regime intended to help me lose weight so this will help reduce the sail size I will need so maybe not so critical.
You are right Phil, it would be good to try out some bigger sails just to see how much more sail area I really need. I wish I could take wednesday off. I am owed some flex / overtime so I'll see but don't hold your breath.
Back to researching masts / sails then I guess
Select to expand quotegregob said..
So the general advice has been to get a 460 even though this will limit the max size to about an 8mt sail. I am assuming this would be to make purchasing a RDM mast more affordable and thus to not need a new extension?
I would just worried that I may need something slightly bigger sometimes and would then need to buy a 490 as well. Mind you I have started a diet and exercise regime intended to help me lose weight so this will help reduce the sail size I will need so maybe not so critical.
You are right Phil, it would be good to try out some bigger sails just to see how much more sail area I really need. I wish I could take wednesday off. I am owed some flex / overtime so I'll see but don't hold your breath.
Back to researching masts / sails then I guess
Greg, an 8 meter sail is a fair lump, and many will fit nicely on a 460 mast. I'm sure in any wind over 13 knots you'll be up and running on either you 140 litre or 122 litre Starboard. Some of the guys in our club are the same weight as you and take off on very simular sized gear to me with the same wind strength, so I think technique also has a lot to do with it. Hunt down a bigger fin for your Funster, and bolt my 7.3 on it. I'm sure you'll get moving nicely in 14 knots.
PS- May hit Queens on Weds. Trial on Tues if you suddenly come down with a head cold.
Just to show what is possible, this guy is 87 kg and (I think) is using a 5.3m sail on a board about 100 litres
what kind of sail would he need if he was 8kg heavier, on a heavier board in lighter winds?
How would someone calculate this accurately so as to purchase / or not purchase the right gear for the job?
I realise I have a lot to learn but it's obvious, to me at least, that if three people are sailing in same conditions on different gear, similar sail size, different body weight etc, and two are planing and one is not, that there are other aspects at work other than technique.
I know I need a bigger sail or two for my weight and prevailing conditions. My conundrum is do I get a 460 only to find I can't rig a big enough sail on it as well or go for a 490 that requires a SDM and new extension.
I am considering an in between, but more expensive option; and EZZY 490 base and 460 top? Based on reading this would cover a quiver of 6.5, 7.5, 8.5 which would do 90% of wind conditions. Plus it's RDM but three times as expensive as cheap SDM I was considering.
Hi Greg,
That video is not a guide to the equipment just showing how much effect technique can have.
My philosophy is first, is the person going to be sailing enough to progress enough to benefit from better gear?
If not, then buying bigger gear and keeping the cost down is the way to go.
If you will progress enough, then it would be better to buy a good rig that you will keep using as you progress. The 460 mast falls into that category. I don't think there is much advantage with an RDM versus SDM mast in 460 and above so either should do but you would need to be getting a good SDM cheap so you can buy an extension too.
If you get good sail, mast, boom, extension, then you don't need to change them as you progress, just need to change boards, but you could find that if you bought a really big rig that you might move away from using it because you don't get much advantage from it as your technique improves and it may be too big for the board you need to progress to.
Talking from my experience when starting out I too kept buying bigger sails to try and get planning, Starting on a 180L board with a 6.2 I felt I was lacking power. I soon bough a 7.2 and yes it did get me going but I soon learnt what sailing overpowered was like and the consequences involved. The 7.2 turned out to be my most used sail when living in Canberra but it suited the conditions, I didn't need to get a bigger sail to learn I just needed to go out in stronger winds and build up my skill set. As most have said it's mostly about technique and right equipment for the conditions, The biggest sail I use these days is a 5.8 and I'm usually on a sail 1/2 a meter smaller then the other free riders around me. RDM or SDM? Depends what your focus is, Waves or Freeride....But either will work in both situations. I've switched to RDM as my focus is wave riding, I've still got the first mast I ever bought after 4 years....So you'll get your money's worth out of them, Invest in quality. 400 & 430 RDMs are my most used masts, I do have a 370 but it's rarely used(has to be over 40 knots) and a SDM 460 for my 7.2 & 8.5(rarely used these days) there's also a 30cm extension available that take the 460 to 490 for bigger sails. If it's under 10 knots it's not going to matter what size sail you have as none will get you planning on a learner board, Use these days with a smaller sail and work on rig control, tacks and gybes. When it's 15 knots+ then it's time to think about planning.
Here's a vid I found of some gumby, He was 100kg at the time on a 115L board and 5.4 in 15 knots(Max) of wind...With a little technique and the right gear you can get going. 
Hi gregob. I had the Funster 145 when I was learning and had the same issue. I raced out and bought a 8.2 sail, but needed a 44 fin to not spin out. As I got a little better over the next couple of months, I upgraded to a free ride board 130 litre and found the 8.2 was too big!
A couple of years on now, with the advantage of hindsight, I should have bought a 7.5 Ezzy and an Ezzy 460 RDM mast. I reckon if you have RDM, stick to it, otherwise you need SDM extensions as well. A 7.5 will get you planing in 15 knots with around a 40cm fin. Practice is the key!
So what I'm hearing is "Don't buy a 490 mast because you will not need it in the long Run. When you get better you use a smaller board in higher winds and use smaller sails".
That makes sense. Maybe I should just look for biggest sail I can rig on my 430 then and be satisfied with that for time being.
Problem is you guys are all wind snobs. I am a wind beggar. For example - there was very little wind predicted on Sunday
- I didn't care I went to local river anyway. There was just a fleeting flee's fart every now and then - I didn't care - I rigged up. The tide was coming in and the 1kn gusts were going in same direction - I didn't care I went out. Yes it picked up a little a bit; I practiced tacks and gybe foot work bit but soon died all together. I had to drag my kit about 500 mts through mangrove mud and over oyster ridden rocks to get back to the car before dark. I am sure I was an amusing site standing on my board going no where to the guys fishing in their tinnies and hitech canoes.
So yeah, I am a bit OCD with my WS learning :)
we all go through that phase, windy or not, raining, snowing (maybe not), we go on the water and give it a try...
Keep up it's the only way to improve.
I still have to agree that 8m+ is a bit too big for the moment for you.
you can find 7.0/7.3 m? sails that rig on 4.30, should be plenty enough to get you going.
Wait 'til you're confident and easily planing hooked in and feet in straps to upgrade your kit.
Just keep practising and ask for advice at the beach !!
I've started looking for 7ish mt sails - any sail recommendations for a 430 NP Matrix mast would be appreciated.
G'day Greg,
Reading your posts is like re-living my entry to windsurfing! 2 years ago got a 145 Funster with a 5.8, then wanted more sail so got a 7.0 and 460 mast. I am a bit lighter than you though at around 70kg. My 7.0 is a Superfreak which i love, but at your weight you may want something gruntier down low.
My suggestion is to take the advice of the JP guy and get yourself a 48cm fin ASAP and ditch the standard one. Even with the 5.8 sail it transformed the board from a slogger to a planer. Plenty around second hand at the shops. I got a JP freeride 48 from Reg at Windsurfing Perth for under a hundred bucks delivered in a few days.
I don't know much about sails myself yet but do know that the HSM Liquid 7.5 rigs on a 430 (with long extension). From memory, HSM is reasonably compatible with NP masts, but you may need to confirm that with someone more knowledgable than me.
Good luck,
Richard
Select to expand quotegregob said..
So what I'm hearing is "Don't buy a 490 mast because you will not need it in the long Run. When you get better you use a smaller board in higher winds and use smaller sails".
That makes sense. Maybe I should just look for biggest sail I can rig on my 430 then and be satisfied with that for time being.
Problem is you guys are all wind snobs. I am a wind beggar. For example - there was very little wind predicted on Sunday
- I didn't care I went to local river anyway. There was just a fleeting flee's fart every now and then - I didn't care - I rigged up. The tide was coming in and the 1kn gusts were going in same direction - I didn't care I went out. Yes it picked up a little a bit; I practiced tacks and gybe foot work bit but soon died all together. I had to drag my kit about 500 mts through mangrove mud and over oyster ridden rocks to get back to the car before dark. I am sure I was an amusing site standing on my board going no where to the guys fishing in their tinnies and hitech canoes.
So yeah, I am a bit OCD with my WS learning :)
I disagree with people saying that the technique makes a difference. Sure it will, but without time on the water you won't improve your technique. If people want to plane on a small board with bugger all wind, and only go in one direction, good on 'em. Let them. It's much more fun to be able to rig what you need to get planing and then have fun hooning around.
The dumbest advice I got from my instructor initially was to not get a bigger sail until I was completely comfortable blasting in the straps. I was 95kgs and had a 5.4m sail. What a stupid idea.
Instead I bought a second hand 7.5m and spent the rest of the winter blasting around and learning technique. It's great fun. Who wants to slog when they don't need to.
Now, I have a 8.5m I use on an Ezzy 490 RDM and its good fun. When there's almost no wind I can still plane with the guys lighter than me.
I still remember my first year where there were about 6 or so guys sitting on the fence at the local, whilst I just rigged my 7.5m and 160L board and went sailing. No one told me I wasn't supposed to be able to plane. If you want to be one of those fence sitters, stick with the small gear and learn how to talk instead of sail. If you want to sail and get better, buy a bigger sail (or two!) 
Select to expand quoterande said..
G'day Greg,
Reading your posts is like re-living my entry to windsurfing! 2 years ago got a 145 Funster with a 5.8, then wanted more sail so got a 7.0 and 460 mast. I am a bit lighter than you though at around 70kg. My 7.0 is a Superfreak which i love, but at your weight you may want something gruntier down low.
My suggestion is to take the advice of the JP guy and get yourself a 48cm fin ASAP and ditch the standard one. Even with the 5.8 sail it transformed the board from a slogger to a planer. Plenty around second hand at the shops. I got a JP freeride 48 from Reg at Windsurfing Perth for under a hundred bucks delivered in a few days.
I don't know much about sails myself yet but do know that the HSM Liquid 7.5 rigs on a 430 (with long extension). From memory, HSM is reasonably compatible with NP masts, but you may need to confirm that with someone more knowledgable than me.
Good luck,
Richard
I agree too. I replaced the 30 something fin on my learner board with a 50cm one, and suddenly it went upwind well, got planing earlier, and was faster to boot.
Don't be afraid of buying and using a bigger sail. Gregob if you sail where I think you do, ie on the Belliger and Kalang rivers, the wind will be gusty. People talk about getting going on small gear in 10 or 15 knots. In my experience with a wind meter, the wind in NSW is rarely a consistent 10 or 15 knots. Even on the windier days it can drop below 10 quite a lot. If you are on small gear you'll be dropping off the plane a lot. I saw this last Saturday with the windsurfer consistently planing was using an 8.4m sail and big slalom board. Others were slogging around on 6m or 6.5m sails and little boards.
So as FormulaNova says, a bigger sail will get you going more often. Most modern sails are flat too compared to old sails. so they need to be bigger to generate the same sort of power that smaller older sails generate.
Like most hoons they think power fixes all, Not the case and why most hoons end up crashing up a tree.
Select to expand quotejh2703 said..
Like most hoons they think power fixes all, Not the case and why most hoons end up crashing up a tree.
Find many trees in the water where you sail? Not where I sail.
One of the best tips I found when learning how to carve gybe was to be powered up as you enter the carve. It's much much easier if you have buckets of power to spare. Not way over-powered but enough.
As you may know, in Sanctuary Point, the wind drops off a lot as you get close to shore, which is a great place to gybe because its nice and flat. If you go in there with marginal power, you end up with either a nice elegant gybe, or a sucky gybe because you don't have enough grunt. Go into that same gybe with a tonne of power and you make it around. It may not be pretty, but practice makes perfect and before you know it you can make nice gybes in less windy conditions. I would prefer to hone my technique with a couple of hundred gybes instead of 2 or 3 'low wind' ones.
I have found that by learning how to sail overpowered if needed, and also working on a good technique, I can go out on a sail that covers more wind conditions. I don't have to come back in to change up or down as much.
Anyway, this worked for me. I don't have the patience to go out with smaller sails just to say that I can use a smaller sail than anyone else. I'm fat, I don't need to try and get away with the smallest sails that others are using.
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..rande said..
G'day Greg,
Reading your posts is like re-living my entry to windsurfing! 2 years ago got a 145 Funster with a 5.8, then wanted more sail so got a 7.0 and 460 mast. I am a bit lighter than you though at around 70kg. My 7.0 is a Superfreak which i love, but at your weight you may want something gruntier down low.
My suggestion is to take the advice of the JP guy and get yourself a 48cm fin ASAP and ditch the standard one. Even with the 5.8 sail it transformed the board from a slogger to a planer. Plenty around second hand at the shops. I got a JP freeride 48 from Reg at Windsurfing Perth for under a hundred bucks delivered in a few days.
I don't know much about sails myself yet but do know that the HSM Liquid 7.5 rigs on a 430 (with long extension). From memory, HSM is reasonably compatible with NP masts, but you may need to confirm that with someone more knowledgable than me.
Good luck,
Richard
I agree too. I replaced the 30 something fin on my learner board with a 50cm one, and suddenly it went upwind well, got planing earlier, and was faster to boot.
What kind of board is the 160 you are usingSelect to expand quoteFormulaNova said..gregob said..
So what I'm hearing is "Don't buy a 490 mast because you will not need it in the long Run. When you get better you use a smaller board in higher winds and use smaller sails".
That makes sense. Maybe I should just look for biggest sail I can rig on my 430 then and be satisfied with that for time being.
Problem is you guys are all wind snobs. I am a wind beggar. For example - there was very little wind predicted on Sunday
- I didn't care I went to local river anyway. There was just a fleeting flee's fart every now and then - I didn't care - I rigged up. The tide was coming in and the 1kn gusts were going in same direction - I didn't care I went out. Yes it picked up a little a bit; I practiced tacks and gybe foot work bit but soon died all together. I had to drag my kit about 500 mts through mangrove mud and over oyster ridden rocks to get back to the car before dark. I am sure I was an amusing site standing on my board going no where to the guys fishing in their tinnies and hitech canoes.
So yeah, I am a bit OCD with my WS learning :)
I disagree with people saying that the technique makes a difference. Sure it will, but without time on the water you won't improve your technique. If people want to plane on a small board with bugger all wind, and only go in one direction, good on 'em. Let them. It's much more fun to be able to rig what you need to get planing and then have fun hooning around.
The dumbest advice I got from my instructor initially was to not get a bigger sail until I was completely comfortable blasting in the straps. I was 95kgs and had a 5.4m sail. What a stupid idea.
Instead I bought a second hand 7.5m and spent the rest of the winter blasting around and learning technique. It's great fun. Who wants to slog when they don't need to.
Now, I have a 8.5m I use on an Ezzy 490 RDM and its good fun. When there's almost no wind I can still plane with the guys lighter than me.
I still remember my first year where there were about 6 or so guys sitting on the fence at the local, whilst I just rigged my 7.5m and 160L board and went sailing. No one told me I wasn't supposed to be able to plane. If you want to be one of those fence sitters, stick with the small gear and learn how to talk instead of sail. If you want to sail and get better, buy a bigger sail (or two!)
What kind of board is that Formula ?
I have also been considering trading the funster for something with a bit more volume for the lighter conditions. I have a SB carve 122 for when the wind gets higher so a larger volume board may also help with light wind planing for me?
Select to expand quotegregob said..
<snip>
What kind of board is that Formula ?
I have also been considering trading the funster for something with a bit more volume for the lighter conditions. I have a SB carve 122 for when the wind gets higher so a larger volume board may also help with light wind planing for me?
I don't use it much anymore, but it is my first board I bought which is a Bic Nova. It's almost the size of a formula board but made of plastic and is heavier. It does sail well, although a true Formula board planes even earlier albeit with a 70cm fin.
I found for me, at around 95kgs, that a 135L board was floaty enough. Then again, it depends where your skills are at. In the beginning the 135L felt very difficult to keep steady, whereas now it feels rock-solid just because I know my way around boards much better. To show you that weight does make a big difference, I lost 20kgs at one stage and one of my 115L boards felt exactly the same as the 135L when I was 20kgs heavier.
Select to expand quotejh2703 said..
Here's a vid I found of some gumby, He was 100kg at the time on a 115L board and 5.4 in 15 knots(Max) of wind...With a little technique and the right gear you can get going.
Would that gumby think it was easier or harder to get planing with a smaller board? :)
Select to expand quotegregob said...
Would that gumby think it was easier or harder to get planing with a smaller board? :)
Smaller boards are harder as they bog down when under powered but technique again comes into play, knowing to push through the toes to flatten the board, pumping the sail and ever bouncing the board a little to get it to pop up and plain. They say to stick with something about 15-20 liters above your body weight in order to give you enough float for light conditions but when learning you want more then that to help stability and it'll also improve your chances of getting on the plain.....The wider the board the better too....But don't forget about the fin....And 3 straps are easier the 4....And a center board can help....And the list goes on and on and on......
Just get out and have fun, I too go out in a sparrows f@rt as it all helps....5 or 40 knots I don't care I just love windsurfing. 
Gregob - you can get planing on bigger kit than a 6.2m but it's a different sort of planing. It's all apparent wind and you have a huge rig - it's like driving a bus versus a motorbike.
If you want to get better, it's better to face that fact that planing with a sail bigger than 6.2 isn't worth doing.
This isn't to say windsurfing in light winds isn't worth doing, just that planing at all costs isn't worth it.
You have an ideal set up to work on all aspects of rig handling - you can learn all the tricks in light winds and then plane when it is windy.
I'm 85kg and my biggest sail is a 5.5m which I put on a 108litre board. It gets going pretty easily and when it is going, it feels like I want to do things.
Select to expand quoteginger pom said..
Gregob - you can get planing on bigger kit than a 6.2m but it's a different sort of planing. It's all apparent wind and you have a huge rig - it's like driving a bus versus a motorbike.
If you want to get better, it's better to face that fact that planing with a sail bigger than 6.2 isn't worth doing.
This isn't to say windsurfing in light winds isn't worth doing, just that planing at all costs isn't worth it.
You have an ideal set up to work on all aspects of rig handling - you can learn all the tricks in light winds and then plane when it is windy.
I'm 85kg and my biggest sail is a 5.5m which I put on a 108litre board. It gets going pretty easily and when it is going, it feels like I want to do things.
Hey Ginger - it sounds like what you are saying is I should be patient and wait for wind that is strong enough to get planing with 6.2 mt sail. It sounds more like a measure of patience than skill as where I live I would basically forgo the exilharation of planing 360 days a year! And knowing my luck the other 6 days would be week days
I don't consider purchasing gear that suits my skill level, board, weight, and prevailing conditions, to be trying to plane at all costs.
I have spent a fair amount of money over the last 6 months on windsurfing gear and like most people when they are new to the sport, I wish I had chosen differently with some items. Like the funster, If I could choose again I would probably go with a large version of a performance model board rather than a learning board; I would go with slightly more volume as this would be better in really light conditions and also have come with a larger fin. I would probably also have purchased one or two different fins and I would have gone for a 460 / 400 mast combo instead of a 430/400 combo and I would have gotten a 7.5 mt sail with the 6.5, 5.3, 4.5.
Had I purchased a 155 Lt Excite Ride or Starboard Go a 460 mast and a 7.5 mt sail, I would be planing about 50% of the time.
But we all make the best decisions with the knowledge we have at our disposal at the time. Probably the largest contributing factor in my lack of planing at the moment is the fact that I wasn't born and now living in WA. But selling the house and moving family to Perth might be a little too obsessive
