I don't really have a clue about foiling but keen to give it a go.

I was wondering what foil is the best to get? What are the pros and cons

I am more interested in fun foiling using small sails than foil racing.

Thanks

Theres heaps of good foils out there that'll give you what youre after.

i reckon slingshot are a good way to go. Theyre great free ride orientated foils, plenty of lift and manoeuvrability, but theyre modular and theres a variety of wings available depending on which way you end up gravitating to.
have a look at some of asymuths' threads on here for eg

Yep, agree with Subsonic. I use starboard but I'm more inclined to the race side of things. Slingshot have lots of options so you can do free ride stuff or change to faster wing set ups later.

What board are you planning to use? How heavy are you and what wind do you have?

.For five years I watched a local guy make about a dozen of own foils and experiment with them. He likes fabricating foils and has an orientation toward high aspect ratio, low surface area, and thin race style foils. I decided that was not for me. Then at the beginning of last summer another local guy shows up with a high lift, large surface area, thick, and low stall speed Infinity 84 on a Fanatic Falcon slalom board. I thought when he gets up on the foil, I'm going to buy. Unfortunately his efforts were waylaid by health issues and he was pretty much out for the season. During this time I watched every youtube foiling video I could. Also I watched Slingshot's Foil-Academy.com tutorial. Just from watching these videos i could tell that the Falcon footstraps were in the wrong position. And the foil was not far enough forward in relationship to where he was standing on the board.

If you see a board/foil combination working well in a video or on a local beach with a guy about your weight or heavier. Give that combination consideration. Heli Boy999, youtube, went thru a number a foils/board combinations before he became successful. His videos are worth watching. CoreAS, here and youtube, has experimented with a number of foil/board combinations. In addition excav8tor, here, has played with a number of board/foil combinations. These are all big guys near or over 100 kg. To start foiing I suspect there is not a foil out there that is too big, but there are foils that are too small.

I use a Slingshot Wizard 150 board with an I84 foil. I'm 84Kg.

The question lol

There are now more foils than ever to choose from and the decision is not easy.

I would look at what the local beach are primarily using because thats usually good for spares and support from a local supplier plus there is always a chance to use someone else's kit to see what you think.

I would say that what ever brand you go for you need to get the biggest front wing you can to give you the best chance of learning.

Bigger wing is going to get you up in less wind, less speed so crashes are more forgiving.

Look at the surface area as a guide.

roughly

100-120 kg rider 12 knots wind 2000 cm2 wing
80 - 100 kg rider 12 knots wind 1500 cm2 wing
60 - 80 kg rider 12 knots wind 1000 cm2 wing

A short mast to start will also help the process.

You will generally keep the big wing for light winds and use smaller sails as wind increases with skill. You can add a smaller wing to set up as wind and skill increases.

My 2 cents because someone has to say it,

Slingshot is the very very very far end of the scale when it comes to wingsize. No windfoiling brand makes wings even close to that size and imho there's a reason for that.

The insanely large surface area wings are slow, irresponsive, and really dont work AT ALL with sails over 6.5m2. At F-One we're currently experimenting with wings for wingsurfing with high surfacearea ~1800cm2, relatively high aspect compared to the surfwings and a way way flatter profile for top end speed. I think for heavy weight windfoiling that might also be a way to go, making a fast, very flat wing with high surfacearea to maximise lift but minimise drag in the process. I feel the slingshot wings are too fat for freeriding and are better in the waves or just without a sail. Everyone else would be better of with a little more high aspect wings. (I'd say medium aspect ratio, so not as high as the racefoils, but not as low and thick as the slingshot wings. Packing 1200cm2 in 85-90cm span for example.)

As a second (or primary) option beside slingshot I'd look at more allround freeride foils. Very nice really allround foils are the LK1 with 1200/1300 wing (one of the foils I've had most fun on in 2018, lifting my 85kg in 8 knots with a 7.0 freeride sail effortlessly), F-One Levo 900cm2 2020 (my personal favorite for my 85kg, 4.6 and 105L in 12 knots of wind) or Starboard GTRr/Freeride, thinking of a combo of 95 (alu is ok) mast, 95 fuselage, 1000 or 1100 frontwing and 330 stab. These foils are fine to use with sails from 0 to 9m2, I've used prototypes and preproduction series of the 2020 F-One Levo900 Carbon for wingsurfing and windfoil freestyle aswell as freeriding with a 3.0 and racing with a 9.0. I even took it out to sea to practice my jumping / backloops, although it is too fast for waveriding.

As a third option: A racefoil can work really well with small sails. I use my Lokefoil PWA Racefoil (I'm blessed with quite the foil collection) with small sails in higher winds, there's nothing more stable out there on the market. I know some norwegian riders are very happy using their NP PWA foils with smaller sails, and there's quite some videos on youtube from a while back (end 2018 I think) of amado vrieswijk going crazy with a starboard racefoil and a severne freek.

Although many slalom sailors initially went with high aspect race foils, I think unless they are truly racing most will move (or have moved) to medium aspect free ride foils. The slingshot infinity 76 wing has to be one of the most versatile wings ever built. Admittedly, i have not ridden any other brand though haha.

The main advantage of the slingshot system is the cost and the ability to switch wings, and that they are freeride/freestyle focused.

Slingshot for versatility, ease of learning & very modular.
Starboard foils for speed & modularity.

I own and learned on Starboard. Started with the GT, but I think the easier way to go is with one of the Race setups and the largest front wing you can put on.

Slingshot is cheaper and is readily available with lots of resources available to learn from. Also seems to be go-to for learning in the US.

Enjoy.

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thedoor said..
Although many slalom sailors initially went with high aspect race foils, I think unless they are truly racing most will move (or have moved) to medium aspect free ride foils. The slingshot infinity 76 wing has to be one of the most versatile wings ever built. Admittedly, i have not ridden any other brand though haha.

The main advantage of the slingshot system is the cost and the ability to switch wings, and that they are freeride/freestyle focused.

Having ridden a medium aspect 1100 wings (80/88 cm) vs both an i76 and i84 side by side, I can vouch for what WhiteofHeart said. Admittedly, I'm on the lighter end of the male spectrum and understand that the 100kg guys do need more area. I rode the i76 with an audible GPS and the speeds were less while getting on the foil was no quicker. Plus, my freerace foil is more stable. The i84 has a bit more "float" but, again, you don't get the acceleration and glide you get with less draggy wings.

If your domain is especially flat water in 8-20 and avg weight, imho, don't get wrapped up in the idea that only area matters and more is better. For that matter, in winds above that, a lot of people move to smaller wings, anyway. And those freeride wings do carve very well.

The Sailworks guys on 720 and 639 wings (both under 800cm2)

I agree. The really nice thing about Slingshot is the modular and adjustable assembly, and huge range of components to get what you want.

I also agree that SS has gone BIG (i76 and i84 and i99) way beyond where just about anybody else has. This has worked fine for their business and for their thousands of happy customers out there. Even in the Columbia Gorge, I see a really high percentage of SS foils when we have a huge choice of brands here. Good on SS.

That said, I disagree A LITTLE BIT with Heliboy's chart above showing foil area for different winds and body weights. He is showing bigger than what I think is necessary. Yes, his sizes work just fine, but I propose that you don't need to go quite that big.

I weigh 90 kg, use an all-carbon super-stiff foil with wings of 779 cm2 and 1120 cm2, and sail sizes from 5.0 to 7.0. The 1120 lifts in a whisper and is a very easy ride, but it is definitely slower than the 779. Above, he says, "80 - 100 kg rider 12 knots wind 1500 cm2 wing." I do 12 knots of wind very easily with a 1120 cm2 and 7.0 sail. I will be trying a 1300 cm2 next season, but I doubt it will give me any better light-wind riding than the 1120 already does. In any case, it will be fun to experiment.

If you follow Heliboy's chart above, you will do fine and your foiling will be easy to learn. Just make sure it is balanced before you go out. His videos show this nicely.

All that said, as of this writing Sailworks still has a AFS-2 all-carbon with two front wings for a killer price. Can't go wrong with that one to get a performance freeride foil that you can learn on and progress with. The AFS-2 has the stiffest mast of any of them out there, even stiffer than race foil masts. No, I am not a Sailworks teamrider, but I get almost all my stuff from them. They always get me the right stuff, and their service and support is awesome.

Yeah, more surface area isn't better unless you are a thic boi or want to sail in very light wind. But even in light wind their are other variables that may be more important than foil surface area/outline eg pumping ability and sail size.

Also I wonder about the relative apparent wind benefits from a smaller wing with higher top speed, which may be more important, than surface area, to keeping you up on the foil once you can get it flying. The larger foil may fly earlier but may not as easily generate the apparent wind to keep you up in light air.

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windsurftom said..
I don't really have a clue about foiling but keen to give it a go.

I was wondering what foil is the best to get? What are the pros and cons

I am more interested in fun foiling using small sails than foil racing.

Thanks

I would get a Moses Vento 790 Freeride to start with. moseshydrofoil.com/products/kit-vento-V85790 Advantage of the 790 is the Cadillac feeling, early take off, and being able to use very small sails. When you progress and maybe want to go faster get the Moses 720 front wing and you are set.

Moses is full carbon (minus the fuselage) but it also has aluminum mast options that bring down the cost almost by half. Carbon masts are in 85-95-105 options, 75-95 in aluminum.

Unless you really want to race don't get anything more race oriented than the above, it will make learning harder.

BTW: In the movie shown above the sailors are on 2019 Moses foils, not Slingshot. Moses wings construction is of much higher quality.

WindsurfTom

How much do you weigh and what kind of minimum wind speed are you looking to foil in?

Much like windsurfing, there isn't a single board or foil set up that will cover the whole spectrum. If you are looking at "Free foiling"
then I highly recommend the Slingshot Hover Glide foils.

This was Christmas day, 5-15 (puffs) on a 5.8. (I weigh 92kg) I use the Slingshot 125 wizard board and Slingshot infinity 99 wing for super light winds, I then change to smaller wing sizes depending on wind strength etc.

The OP is interested in "fun foiling using small sails".

Which is why Slingshot have big wings!
Big Slingshot wings - 99, 84 or 76 will get you flying on your first session sooner than any other foil from what I've seen.
It's easy, non-intimidating and super fun, speed is slow, you're only handling a small sail so you can start carving and trying to gybe after a few hours.

At the other end of the performance curve - the SS Infinity 76 & 65 and TC 68 wings own it downwind in big swells and/or strong winds (25+ knots) - I've yet to see any other foils rip in those conditions at our beach

Slingshots have many happy customers around the Lake Macquarie area. As do the Naish. I learnt on a Starboard race and haven't looked back. They are stable and work well with freeride sails or, if you decide further down the line you would like to race, you can match them with a performance sail. As I've progressed I've grown to enjoy their speed and power. Most foil manufacturers seem to have various go-fast bits you can buy and add or, go-slow early flight/maneuvrability bits if you want to change things later. I reckon you should choose a foil type that most closely matches your previous windsurfing style and the conditions in your area. If you've mostly ridden slalom/free race gear go for the Starboard/ NP F4 or if you come from a freeride/wave background the Naish/SS gear will be awesome.

Just back from a foil session Middleton Beach Albany WA
Slingshot Infinity 76, wizard 105 and a Simmer Tricera 4.2 in gusty 12 to 18 knots
riding wind chop, flying through gybes
SOOOOO much fun, just saying

Just recently purchased the Slingshot Foil package with the TC 68cm wing and the i84cm wing with the 90cm mast. The customer service at Slingshot is impeccable!!

Yes, Team Sailworks in 2019 were riding on Moses foils and North Pacific foilboards, except Bruce on Roberts boards.

For 2020 you will start to see Sailworks riders on Phantom International race foils. Check out their website.

Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. I am 70kg and keen on using a foil on an old 78 wide starboard carve in mostly flat water. My sails are wave sails and i can get my freestyle board going in about 16 knots so thinking of using a foil in 8-16kts with a 5.7 or 5m.

I'm not too interested in performance but I read that the 1st gen Naish foils were very draggy.

I thought the slingshot 76 was probably the go but I read it was quite heavy.

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windsurftom said..
Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. I am 70kg and keen on using a foil on an old 78 wide starboard carve in mostly flat water. My sails are wave sails and i can get my freestyle board going in about 16 knots so thinking of using a foil in 8-16kts with a 5.7 or 5m.

I'm not too interested in performance but I read that the 1st gen Naish foils were very draggy.

I thought the slingshot 76 was probably the go but I read it was quite heavy.

If the budget allows, look at the Moses Vento 85 then. Same wing size (heck, same wing as SS Ghost Whisperer) but much more carbon bits. 8 kts may be tough with that small of a sail but not too far off. Moses are also doing a giant wing for '20 if you decide to wing or other surfish stuff.

Weight isn't really much of an issue in the water but I find the SS alu foils are a bear for to carry and I'm about your size when it's not the holidays.

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windsurftom said..
Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. I am 70kg and keen on using a foil on an old 78 wide starboard carve in mostly flat water. My sails are wave sails and i can get my freestyle board going in about 16 knots so thinking of using a foil in 8-16kts with a 5.7 or 5m.

I'm not too interested in performance but I read that the 1st gen Naish foils were very draggy.

I thought the slingshot 76 was probably the go but I read it was quite heavy.

I asked a lot of questions here and posted topics about my interest in foiling. As a result, I chose the gear listed due to the answers I received here. I wanted to get out in light winds too about what you're looking at. So the the i84 was highly recommended. The i76 has more wind range, but in the earlier, lighter winds, the i84 will excel over the i76. I'm 175 pounds and prepared to use my 6.8 Ezzy Zeta if necessary to get out early.

Good luck!

Yes, the weight of the slingshot foil is heavy in my opinion. It's like carrying the weight of 2 wave boards. Have to get used to it. No more walking down to the water with sail attached to board. Takes 2 trips now.

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MagicRide said..
Yes, the weight of the slingshot foil is heavy in my opinion. It's like carrying the weight of 2 wave boards. Have to get used to it. No more walking down to the water with sail attached to board. Takes 2 trips now.

It is worth the 2 trips with the gear to the water

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tonyk said..

MagicRide said..
Yes, the weight of the slingshot foil is heavy in my opinion. It's like carrying the weight of 2 wave boards. Have to get used to it. No more walking down to the water with sail attached to board. Takes 2 trips now.

It is worth the 2 trips with the gear to the water

Yep, it's just getting accompanied to the new process.

Hi Tom

i have the Naish and it has a similar top speed to the slingshot 76 (ie not super draggy). 18-19 knots usually.
Not sure if you're still on the mid north coast but Mark J has the naish in port Mac, or Dave has naish and slingshot at Kite and SUP in Newcastle.

I haven't used the slingshot but owned the NP pinkie previously and enjoy the naish more.

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windsurftom said..
Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. I am 70kg and keen on using a foil on an old 78 wide starboard carve in mostly flat water. My sails are wave sails and i can get my freestyle board going in about 16 knots so thinking of using a foil in 8-16kts with a 5.7 or 5m.

I'm not too interested in performance but I read that the 1st gen Naish foils were very draggy.

I thought the slingshot 76 was probably the go but I read it was quite heavy.

Tom, definitely have a look at the Starboard wave/supercruiser foil setup as this setup offers smooth stable foiling experience. My preference if foiling on a narrow board like yours is using the starboard ocean 2000 front wing which is designed with thin profile making it very forgiving, stable and smooth. I too am around 70kg and will use my smaller sails with this setup. Two fuselage options are offered, the 67cm the more surfy feel and the 87cm used on the supercruiser offers a little more locked it feel and even higher upwind angles and a drop more powerful foiling feel. A wide range of mast lengths are offered in both carbon and alloy. I mix up sessions using either the 85 or 65cm mast. Starboard does offer their freeride foil which also would work great and seems like a popular choice. However the Freeride foil I feel for the same amount of wind needs slightly larger sails. The Freeride also like to go faster which is fun, however for slower cruising speeds the wave foils are my choice. Starboard is now offering their massive 2400 ocean front wing which I hope to try at some point. Again looks like a thin profile and medium aspect design.

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windsurftom said..
Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. I am 70kg and keen on using a foil on an old 78 wide starboard carve in mostly flat water. My sails are wave sails and i can get my freestyle board going in about 16 knots so thinking of using a foil in 8-16kts with a 5.7 or 5m.

I'm not too interested in performance but I read that the 1st gen Naish foils were very draggy.

I thought the slingshot 76 was probably the go but I read it was quite heavy.

Sounds like you're quite an active planer. For you I'd recommend a more playful wing than the i76 or i84. Big wings mask bad technique, but dont really enhance a good one much. A faster wing will be more fun for you, if you have a chance try the new 2020 F-One Levo 900cm2 foils. They are magic, with good technique and a 4.6 or 4.9 I get going at the same wind as another surfer on my lake with the SB Supercruiser, Starboard Foil 145 and 8.6 2-cam (the combo doesnt work but he doesnt listen) and I fly easier through the lulls. The Moses Balz M?ller pro model might also be for you.

There's basically 2 ways to go in wing design for freeride at the moment for handling light winds / lulls. Either the wing has to be big and fat enough to keep flying at insanely low speeds, easy for the lazy planer and slow topend speed. Or fast enough to keep apparent wind through the lulls, a little harder to get going for the lazy planer, but nearly as easy for the active one, with way more playfullness and lightness in flight as a reward.

The supercruiser and i76/i84 are the first category, the F-One, Moses Balz Pro and new Phantom Freeride for example are the second category.

Think what feeling you want on the water and pick accordingly. Don't just go SS because everyone has them, I'd say in europe they're one of the least popular / seen brands on the water. Don't go something else because I say so either, because it might not suit your style.

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segler said..
Yes, Team Sailworks in 2019 were riding on Moses foils and North Pacific foilboards, except Bruce on Roberts boards.

For 2020 you will start to see Sailworks riders on Phantom International race foils. Check out their website.

For now Sailworks riders are on Moses (and AFS) and they import the whole 2020 Moses line up. I am sure Phantom race foils are great (they did win the PWA) but if you ever seen a slingshot close by the construction is pretty rough ... heavy, aluminum mast seating on the fuselage, fuselage put together with bolts, heavy wings that judging by the weight differential have probably a lot of fiberglass in them. Only thing that goes for SS is perhaps the price, although given the quality is less competitive than NP or Taaroa.

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windsurftom said..
Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. I am 70kg and keen on using a foil on an old 78 wide starboard carve in mostly flat water. My sails are wave sails and i can get my freestyle board going in about 16 knots so thinking of using a foil in 8-16kts with a 5.7 or 5m.

I'm not too interested in performance but I read that the 1st gen Naish foils were very draggy.

I thought the slingshot 76 was probably the go but I read it was quite heavy.

Just to complicate your life. Another option is the Taaroa Noe. It is VERY easy and faster than a Moses 790 (probably slower than the 720). Great construction, all carbon, and relatively cheap https://www.taaroa-hydrofoil.com/noe

Sailworks still has that AFS-2 with TWO wings special deal. All carbon, STIFF as heck because the mast and fuse are monocoque.

https://www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/windfoils/afs-2-carbon-windfoil-package.html

For an all-carbon foil with TWO wings, you can't beat this deal. I have had this foil since 2017, but the price back then was over double what this deal offers. Get this deal and don't look back. Foil your brains out.

I also have LP, Moses, and a Slingshot hybrid. The AFS-2 is the most versatile and easy to balance and foil.