From a comment by CoreAS

"The i99 has worked on every board we have tested so far. I use the i99/42 on the wizard 125 in B, others use i99/48 in C.

it ultimately depends on rider weight, rig set up or riding style.

Boards tested (All tuttle box)

Wizard 125
Horue Tiny 120
Horue Tiny 95
JP pro 135
Horue slant 135"

As I understand it tracked foils got their start from surf and kite foil boards that lacked the thickness for a foil box. There are some advantages especially for foil surfing and kitefoiling where it's difficult to change the pressure locations because of a limitations on strap placement and lack of other means to change the CoG. On windfoils, we have a) multiple ways to change the effective CoG including multiple strap inserts, changing the mast base and boom height positions. Plus, most stuff designed for windfoiling works pretty darn well together (excepting the unmodified Mr. Pink). The above comment is a good example.

The glaring example where windfoils don't work so well are on older formula/wide boards but those have deep tuttles any way.

However, we get thread after thread of beginning windfoilers using dedicated windfoiling equipment stressing over where to put the foil on the track. Additionally, what they may feel is the correct location may actually be counterproductive to their learning to foil effectively. There are edge cases where a track makes sense but for the other 90% of the public - is it just making things harder than it needs to be?

My perspective is that the track system will become standard for anything except race foils. It can allow shorter front fuselages which moves the mast forward leading to a surfy feel, or run it back for more a direct blasting setup.
Being able to use the same foil and possibly board for windfoil, SUPfoil and wingfoil is appealing.

Plus some setups like Naish will offer very easy attachment from the bottom of the board.

I calculated numbers for the neutral point and center of gravity with a 10% static margin for a few combinations of slingshot equipment and there was less than a inch and a half variance. Below is a summary of those numbers. I'd throw out the I99/48 numbers since I didn't have a LE to LE value for that combination. If I included Starboard, AFS, other brands the variance would be greater. Tracks are good for foilers who have different foils.

On my slingshot dialer foil board 130L, where should I position my mast base in the track for the sail?

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Grantmac said..
My perspective is that the track system will become standard for anything except race foils. It can allow shorter front fuselages which moves the mast forward leading to a surfy feel, or run it back for more a direct blasting setup.
Being able to use the same foil and possibly board for windfoil, SUPfoil and wingfoil is appealing.

Plus some setups like Naish will offer very easy attachment from the bottom of the board.

A (imho, big) problem with the foil mast forward is that it screws up the handling of the board before it foils. That's why on newer models they still put the foil box at the back. Anyway, wasn't that the whole point of the SS Switch fuse? (And if the foil track makes people's head spin, the conversations I've read about a vs. b vs. c vs self-made d's .... hooboy)

Balz is using the same MB Pegasus for both wind and wing foil.

You make good points about a versatile board and I'd be willing to say for 80% at least that's still an edge case. They are going to be spending the next year going out 30-40 times just getting the windfoil thing down before even thinking of moving on to the more versatile uses. It's like all the intermediates I know who've bought a "freestyle" board that they can barely make a planing jibe on (no criticism of them - it's a long learning curve). I think a lot of us here posting are the edge cases

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MagicRide said..
On my slingshot dialer foil board 130L, where should I position my mast base in the track for the sail?

Slingshot put the mast track where they did for a reason. Start in the middle. Too much back foot pressure, move it back. Too much front foot pressure move it up. Easy, peasy. No tools necessary and you can do it on the beach. Wind changes? Cruise over to shallow water, give it (or the boom height) a nudge and off you go.

Yeah, I'm using a lot of emoticons. This is supposed to be a fun conversation and exchange of ideas; Occasionally on seabreeze (cough, cough, eltee, cough) people get dogmatic.

All of the small MB foil boards have tracks. Balz seems to run the Moses foils without a really long fuselage and the foil mast at least in the middle of the tracks. The mast base is very far back on that board.
The wind wave foilers are running the foil forward and rig back too.

If you look at the footstrap positions on the Hypernut the ones for foiling are way forward compared to the fin sailing ones.

Personally I think that getting as much volume under you while standing in the foiling position is the key to early take off. At least for non-race foils. Different story with larger rigs that flatten the board out.

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Grantmac said..
All of the small MB foil boards have tracks. Balz seems to run the Moses foils without a really long fuselage and the foil mast at least in the middle of the tracks. The mast base is very far back on that board.
The wind wave foilers are running the foil forward and rig back too.

If you look at the footstrap positions on the Hypernut the ones for foiling are way forward compared to the fin sailing ones.

Personally I think that getting as much volume under you while standing in the foiling position is the key to early take off. At least for non-race foils. Different story with larger rigs that flatten the board out.

All good points. The one MB board the avg punter is likely to buy is the Bobcat (135 litr freeride/foil) - Deep tuttle. The Basilisk is the kind of board that you referred to - the Swiss (pun sort of intended) Army knife of boards in their line up. Looks like their line up is pretty much split half track/ half tuttle. Flat water boards - tuttle. Open water boards - track.

Balz runs his mast base crazy close to his foil mast. I think in a video he said he was running about 87 cm when he was on a Loke (iirc).

Again - you make a very good argument re: Hypernut, etc. I'd only say that 80% of the newbie questions are around 135-170 ltr more conventional boards. Maybe I'm looking at the edge case - flat water/inland foilers, a lot of them relatively inexperienced or not aggressive windsurfers.

The Hypernut and Naish hover are very popular here along with Slingshot. Guys come from wave background and have no interest in race foils.

The MB I was thinking about was actually the Wildcat. That's the one I have interest in. I'm not a terribly good foiler but the smaller boards feel better once flying, they just don't forgive mistakes.

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Grantmac said..
The Hypernut and Naish hover are very popular here along with Slingshot. Guys come from wave background and have no interest in race foils.

The MB I was thinking about was actually the Wildcat. That's the one I have interest in. I'm not a terribly good foiler but the smaller boards feel better once flying, they just don't forgive mistakes.

Appreciate the insights. Maybe "horses for courses"? You and I seem to be primarily in different environments which reflect the types of boards we tend to see more often. Thanks!

Mix to match.
Different foil companies place the COE of their front wings in different positions from their competitors.
COE needs to be between feet, track allows some adjustability.

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LeeD said..
Mix to match.
Different foil companies place the COE of their front wings in different positions from their competitors.
COE needs to be between feet, track allows some adjustability.

That's the conventional wisdom yet CoreAS rattles off an entire list of boards with boxes from different manufacturers that work fine with the i99, a foil that supposedly requires a track.

I'm still not convinced that a beginning or intermediate flatwater foiler gains much from adding one more variable to the mix. Grantmac makes some good points about different use cases where it does. I've used four different brands of foils in my boards from freeride to freeracish and ridden another couple- they aren't that much different or enough that I didn't already have the means to adjust out the differences. The pinkie is a notable exception (I have not used it) but every Pryde foil since has fallen (afaik) into the norms of the industry.

A tuttle is all you need. I agree a lot of people seems to get carried away making too many adjustments all the time.
I have a free ride board, tuttle, and it works perfectly fine with the starboard super cruiser, axis 900, afs 105 race foil and star board GT. Remove the variables and just sail. They all work.

Also formula boards work perfectly fine with race foils. They have been the preferred option for the last coupe of years. I have been using a Patrik 200 with, AFS 105, Starboard Race foil, and Race foil Pro. All different foils , sizes etc but never need to change foot straps or mast base when switching between them.

If you have a quality foil then all you need is time. They all work, if something is wrong it is probably you. Keep it simple.

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DarrylG said..
A tuttle is all you need. I agree a lot of people seems to get carried away making too many adjustments all the time.
I have a free ride board, tuttle, and it works perfectly fine with the starboard super cruiser, axis 900, afs 105 race foil and star board GT. Remove the variables and just sail. They all work.

Also formula boards work perfectly fine with race foils. They have been the preferred option for the last coupe of years. I have been using a Patrik 200 with, AFS 105, Starboard Race foil, and Race foil Pro. All different foils , sizes etc but never need to change foot straps or mast base when switching between them.

If you have a quality foil then all you need is time. They all work, if something is wrong it is probably you. Keep it simple.

I'm in the WWF camp as well, so tracks are a must. I have my sweet spots dialed in on my JP 7' and Naish 2000/1650 Jet wings but when I demo other wings from other brands, I almost always have to make a slight adjustment. In layman's terms, I can usually tell the adjustments I need to make by the distance from the center of mast to fuselage connection to the back of front wing. Also, as I pretty much only use a 5.3 and 4.5 now, adjusting for a few cm's forward or aft for the conditions is really nice. I will say, I don't know if the track boxes need to be so long. I've never used the most forward position, even when SUP foiling or the extreme aft while WWFing.

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Shlogger said..

DarrylG said..
A tuttle is all you need. I agree a lot of people seems to get carried away making too many adjustments all the time.
I have a free ride board, tuttle, and it works perfectly fine with the starboard super cruiser, axis 900, afs 105 race foil and star board GT. Remove the variables and just sail. They all work.

Also formula boards work perfectly fine with race foils. They have been the preferred option for the last coupe of years. I have been using a Patrik 200 with, AFS 105, Starboard Race foil, and Race foil Pro. All different foils , sizes etc but never need to change foot straps or mast base when switching between them.

If you have a quality foil then all you need is time. They all work, if something is wrong it is probably you. Keep it simple.

I'm in the WWF camp as well, so tracks are a must. I have my sweet spots dialed in on my JP 7' and Naish 2000/1650 Jet wings but when I demo other wings from other brands, I almost always have to make a slight adjustment. In layman's terms, I can usually tell the adjustments I need to make by the distance from the center of mast to fuselage connection to the back of front wing. Also, as I pretty much only use a 5.3 and 4.5 now, adjusting for a few cm's forward or aft for the conditions is really nice. I will say, I don't know if the track boxes need to be so long. I've never used the most forward position, even when SUP foiling or the extreme aft while WWFing.

Asking for science purposes - in what ways say did adjusting boom height or mast base fall short? What's been the total range of the tracks that you've used?

I definitely use the tracks to set the foil more fore or aft depending on the conditions, particularly wind strength. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to re-rigging sails and prefer to just foil with one sail (Naish Force 5.3 on Naish Foil/Board).
Setting it forward allows heaps easier/effective board pumping through lulls and earlier on to the foil, aft for when the wind picks up.

I have a board with tracks and basically put the foil forward in light winds for power, oh and put the foil forward in heavy winds for stability, cuz thats pretty much the same thing!

After I've found the setting I like I dont change the rails anymore fore/aft. Reasons why people might want rails:
- Foils with different COE's need different positioning of their front wing to be most efficient. Tracks would make it easier to mix and match brands of boards and foils, although ofcourse strapinserts and masttrack movement can do a similar thing
- people might want to use 1 board for both windfoil and wingfoil, and for wingfoil you would either need to dtand further forward (for ex. In front of the pad which people wouldnt like) or move the foil back.
- to trim whether you want to sail more up/down courses or reaching. (See also first reason not to get a track) With the foil further aft it will be easier to do reaching courses, mostly due to higher speeds. You reduce the static power because of the higher speeds while reaching. The higher speeds result in a higher dynamic power. A better way to solve this problem is to just reduce angle of incidence a lot on the foil and leave the front wing as it is (forward), for this will give you a way more even power distribution over a variety of boardspeeds, make the whole setup more stable and increases your maximum speed.
- When your stab overpowers your frontwing. This could basically mean two things, either your stab is just too big or you have too much rake on the stab. Both resulting in too much dynamic power which you can compensate by moving the frontwing back. (Ofcourse a suboptimal solution) I've only felt the need for this with small 550-600cm2 speedwings and bigger 300+cm2 stabs where you cannot really decrease the rake any further. (Like SB Slalom configuration)
- as an extension, bigger frontwings move the COE of the foil back, smaller wings move it forward. If you're too lazy to tune the stab rake you could also move the foil back or forward to compensate this.

Reasons not to get a track:
- trim for high / low wind. In higher wind you want less lift, but you dont necessarily want less power. A lot of beginning foilers cannot feel the difference between the two, but picking a smaller wing reduces lift, moving the wing back reduces power. Power and stability from the foil are pretty much equal, mostly due to how you are positioned with your weight compared to the balance of the foil. Being on top of the power is always best, and not having to shift between your front and backfoot, but constantly having to push with your front foot to a certain degree decreases the dolphin effect by miles. Shifting the power back to help with heavy winds is a common misconception, it decreases feeling of power, but also a lot of stability, because you have to stand behind your board to keep flying. Especially if you are going downwind a backfooted setup will feel like its trying to kill you due to every gust having a tendency to nosedive. A little more on power trim: Front wing positioning (tracks, abc settings etc) is "static power" ajustment for the effects of this setting remains even across a wide variety of boardspeeds. Stab rake is more of a "dynamic power" adjustment, because these effects increase with boardspeed.
-overly complicated when you have a foil and board which match and are made for eachother.
- in a lot of boards moving the foil in the track adjusts its rake, which can be problematic. (Less rake when you move the foil forward due to the rockerline) I'd rather have a completely flat section for the tracks so you're not changing 2 things at once. Especially since half a degree of rake makes a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference.
- having the mast too far forward makes the board feel like a seesaw between your feet.

Ofcourse you have other trimming options on your board, but everything does more than one thing. You can increase power (feeling of preassure under the front foot) by increasing your downhaul tension and opening your sails leech, but ofcourse that decreases sailpower, and since it moves the COE of your sail you should also move your harnesslines accordingly, otherwise you get more front hand pressure which pushes the nose down (which is opposite to the goal of increasing power). You can move your mastfoot back, but that also changes the stability of the set, and changes how upright or deep you have to stand in order to put equal pressure on the mastfoot going straight. Moving your mastfoot back means you have to lean your sail towindward and forward more to put preassure on the mastfoot, decreasing upwind performance and resulting in a deeper / less efficient stance. Footstraps fore - aft tuning also have a variety of "side effects" (decreasing or increasing the distance between you and the mastfoot, changing basically the "useful" volume distribution of the board fore / aft and has some effect on the release when pumping and power you can put into speed especially in lighter wind when there's not enough power in the sail to really use the mastfoot optimally to balance the power.

The best solution is to find the balance of the whole of your kit, using all settings you have to find the best compromise.

EDIT: Sorry for the novel, hope it helps haha.

P.S. I believe slingshot doesnt really provide for stab rake tuning, so in that sence tracks are a logical addition to their boards. Although ofcourse they do have the switch fuse to compensate for the lack of stab tuning. (Which is not necessarily bad, because wings have an optimal angle of attack and giving them more or less makes them less efficient)

P.p.s changing your boom is one of the most influential parts of the trim, changing 10 things at once but im rambling.

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Grantmac said..
My perspective is that the track system will become standard for anything except race foils. It can allow shorter front fuselages which moves the mast forward leading to a surfy feel, or run it back for more a direct blasting setup.
Being able to use the same foil and possibly board for windfoil, SUPfoil and wingfoil is appealing.

Plus some setups like Naish will offer very easy attachment from the bottom of the board.

Good point -- that's why I'd like to purchase a Slingshot freestyle 115 or 87 (it has both the Tuttle and the track). I want to use it for both windsurf foiling and foiling with a wind wing -- the track may make using a wind wing a little easier.

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dejavu said..
Good point -- that's why I'd like to purchase a Slingshot freestyle 115 or 87 (it has both the Tuttle and the track). I want to use it for both windsurf foiling and foiling with a wind wing -- the track may make using a wind wing a little easier.

I find the track useful (but not essential) on the Freestyle 87 to tune for swell size and wind strength.
It's fun to play with the settings.

Forward 1cm (from the Tuttle position) - Infinity 65 wing in small swells/light winds.

Forward 2cm (from the Tuttle position) - Time Code 68 wing in small swells/light winds.

Neutral (Tuttle position) - I65 and TC68 when it's cranking - and I76 all conditions

My next foil board is a Skate 109L which I'm planning to use with a NP Glide (currently on slingshot gear). The long term plan is to install tracks beside and slightly forward of the powerbox to allow tracked foils. Would be to poor mans MB Wildcat.

the tracks do add a certain level of complexity. Two advantages I can think of.....

I run a centerline back strap on my SS 115 Freestyle and that strap makes it pretty difficult to use the tuttle box.

If people have strong preferences about strap and mast base position the tracks allow these people to adjust things with the track and leave the other preferred settings alone

I have mine all the way forward every time I ride on every foil. I have enough trouble deciding which wing and sail to use for the conditions, thinking of moving the foil track (or mast track for that matter) forwards or back to match conditions is overwhelming.

No matter what mounting system you use (tuttle, power, plate, tracks), what foil you use (small, big, freeride, wave, SUP), length of mast and fuse you use, how much you can adjust footstraps and mast track, you gotta get the center of lift of the front wing at, or near, the midpoint between front and back feet. All adjustability has exactly this as its primary goal.

If the center of lift is anywhere else but at, or nearly at, the midpoint between front and back feet when riding, you will just struggle to make it work at all. Many of us had had to learn this the hard way.

Get it balanced.

The only exception is for foil racing, where the front wing is further forward but is compensated for by higher than usual mast base pressure from big racing sails.

I agree with segler, just got to find the right balance based of experimenting with your own set up.

Couple years ago, when I was using Naish foils, I had tracks put into (my then only foil board, a RRD slalom 122) it did help find the balance because the tuttle box was pretty far back with a narrow tail... Then I used the Naish 142 with adjustable tracks and again it did help fine tune it all.

Fast forward a bit and the only adjustment I need for wind foiling on a wizard 125 is playing with B or C on the fuse.

For wing surfing it is absolutely 1000% essential to have adjustable tracks, as millimeters can make a huge impact. I use the i99 with a 48 rear on a short fuse. as you can see in the pics, its a whole new level of foil placement.

I installed both in the board I just built, it increased the weight of the install one pound over tuttle only so I am glad to have it just to play around with. One other thing to mention is that the adapters from tuttle to track weight about 1.5 pounds! The kites have these sexy one part flanged masts that really save weight. For now windfoiling with tracks is heavy.

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CoreAS said..
I agree with segler, just got to find the right balance based of experimenting with your own set up.

Couple years ago, when I was using Naish foils, I had tracks put into (my then only foil board, a RRD slalom 122) it did help find the balance because the tuttle box was pretty far back with a narrow tail... Then I used the Naish 142 with adjustable tracks and again it did help fine tune it all.

Fast forward a bit and the only adjustment I need for wind foiling on a wizard 125 is playing with B or C on the fuse.

For wing surfing it is absolutely 1000% essential to have adjustable tracks, as millimeters can make a huge impact. I use the i99 with a 48 rear on a short fuse. as you can see in the pics, its a whole new level of foil placement.

Will a Slingshot freestyle board work well with a wind wing (with its relatively short track) or am I better off buying a SUP board (like you show in your photo)?

BTW what do you think of the Sling wing?

Thanks.

Just a thought
manufacturers could mark the centre of lift on their wings and also have a series of lines on top and bottom of their boards for the various centre between the footstraps positions so you can easily line up the centre of lift of the wing with the centre of your chosen footstrap configuration to give you a starting point. Placing the wing fitted to the fuselage on the board you can then move the foil mast in the tracks to line up withe the mounting holes in the fuselage. From there you are bore sighted and can adjust for different wings easily. I suppose if you do not mix foil and board brands the manufacturer has already dialled that in. But with the tracks you can make small adjustments if you feel like you are back or front foot heavy.

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MrA said..
manufacturers could mark the centre of lift on their wings and also have a series of lines on top and bottom of their boards for the various centre between the footstraps positions so you can easily line up the centre of lift of the wing with the centre of your chosen footstrap configuration to give you a starting point. Placing the wing fitted to the fuselage on the board you can then move the foil mast in the tracks to line up withe the mounting holes in the fuselage. From there you are bore sighted and can adjust for different wings easily. I suppose if you do not mix foil and board brands the manufacturer has already dialled that in. But with the tracks you can make small adjustments if you feel like you are back or front foot heavy.

Good idea, but don't hold your breath. I'm still waiting for sail makers to put markers on the sails, like North/Duotone does.

If you buy foiling gear from Sailworks, the very first thing they do with you is mount it all up (in the shop) and adjust everything for balance. They don't want to send you with gear that won't easily fly.

By the way, Sailworks has put downhaul markers on their sails for many years. It is that half-gear sticker they mount to show where the loose leach point should be. Even the Flyer sails have these.

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dejavu said..

CoreAS said..
I agree with segler, just got to find the right balance based of experimenting with your own set up.

Couple years ago, when I was using Naish foils, I had tracks put into (my then only foil board, a RRD slalom 122) it did help find the balance because the tuttle box was pretty far back with a narrow tail... Then I used the Naish 142 with adjustable tracks and again it did help fine tune it all.

Fast forward a bit and the only adjustment I need for wind foiling on a wizard 125 is playing with B or C on the fuse.

For wing surfing it is absolutely 1000% essential to have adjustable tracks, as millimeters can make a huge impact. I use the i99 with a 48 rear on a short fuse. as you can see in the pics, its a whole new level of foil placement.

Will a Slingshot freestyle board work well with a wind wing (with its relatively short track) or am I better off buying a SUP board (like you show in your photo)?

BTW what do you think of the Sling wing?

Thanks.

I have seen a video of someone riding the SS freestyle and sling wing but would I want to learn on one, probably not. Where I wing surf the wind has huge holes and it takes every bit of moving the foil forward to pump the board up. starting off on a nice floaty SUP/foil board will definitely help the learning curve.
The 4.2 sling wing has worked really well for me so far. I'm not the lightest rider and the deep leading edge pocket of the sling wing gives me plenty of pumping power. Hopefully SS will come out with a bigger sling wing for lighter airs.

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CoreAS said..

dejavu said..

CoreAS said..
I agree with segler, just got to find the right balance based of experimenting with your own set up.

Couple years ago, when I was using Naish foils, I had tracks put into (my then only foil board, a RRD slalom 122) it did help find the balance because the tuttle box was pretty far back with a narrow tail... Then I used the Naish 142 with adjustable tracks and again it did help fine tune it all.

Fast forward a bit and the only adjustment I need for wind foiling on a wizard 125 is playing with B or C on the fuse.

For wing surfing it is absolutely 1000% essential to have adjustable tracks, as millimeters can make a huge impact. I use the i99 with a 48 rear on a short fuse. as you can see in the pics, its a whole new level of foil placement.

Will a Slingshot freestyle board work well with a wind wing (with its relatively short track) or am I better off buying a SUP board (like you show in your photo)?

BTW what do you think of the Sling wing?

Thanks.

I have seen a video of someone riding the SS freestyle and sling wing but would I want to learn on one, probably not. Where I wing surf the wind has huge holes and it takes every bit of moving the foil forward to pump the board up. starting off on a nice floaty SUP/foil board will definitely help the learning curve.
The 4.2 sling wing has worked really well for me so far. I'm not the lightest rider and the deep leading edge pocket of the sling wing gives me plenty of pumping power. Hopefully SS will come out with a bigger sling wing for lighter airs.

Thanks for the reply.

Apparently SS is going to have at least one larger size (for sale by next June or July, if not sooner) and they now have a 3m as well as the 4.2.

This is a great discussion, but I am worried that we all will make this too complicated for beginners.

Keep it simple:

1. Put the center of lift of the front wing at, or nearly at, the midpoint between front and back feet.

2. Set the sail mast base at 43" in front of the leading edge of the foil mast.

Fine-tune from there.

Front wing position is adjusted with adjustable footstraps (or strapless altogether) or SS fuse positions A-B-C or dual tracks or Power Plate. Center of lift is USUALLY at about 1/3 to 1/2 the way back from the leading edge. If in doubt, use the halfway point.

Sail base position is adjusted with the sail mast track.

See my old youtube:

For me personally 43" is way too far forward and hampers early lift. I'm building a mast track extension to get it back another 3" from 40".
The freeride foil specific boards are going much further back for mast track now too.