Big wing, small sail
Dean (CoreAS) in Texas has light wind foiling dialed-in with his Infinity 99, Wizard 125 and 5.8 wave sail.
It seems that he easily gets going in 8-10 knots, not a whitecap in sight

Small wing, big sail
Tried the 99 and 84 but prefer the speed and maneuverability of the Infinity 76 in the ocean, so that's now my biggest wing.
To bring the low wind limit down similar to the 84 (for me a crappy pumper and W105, about 10 knots), I've upped sail size from 5.9 to 6.5, which I think is probably the biggest size I'd want to use to ride swells.

Stoked with the Enduro 6.5, rigs on a 430 RDM and 2m boom, pulls like a train with a super relaxed feel, but also pretty light so works great on small waves and wind swells. And no annoying batten flick mid-gybe that you get from a cammed sail.
Other benefits of a bigger sail in the ocean in light winds and chop - more sail pressure helps balance when grovelling and during tail-spin gybes, also easier to water-start.

So 2 ways to go I guess - interested what other freeride foilers are finding the best solution to have fun when it's light?

Hi do you move the windsurf UJ mast foot position around with the different sails and wings?

Interesting topic, I nearly started a similar one today.
Throughout summer I was happy cruising around on my Moses 683 wing (1005cm2) with either a 5.5 or 6.5 no cam sail. With the onset of winter I have found myself experimenting with bigger and bigger race sails. I have used 7.0 and 7.7 4 cam race sails. Whilst these do get me going, they sap most of the fun out of foiling and are a nightmare to uphaul when full of water. I am considering buying a dedicated foil sail as apparently these are much lighter and have more low wind grunt than a traditional race sail, but I am starting to think I may be better off getting a Slingshot 84 foil instead and then I can use my 5.5 even on the light days.
I guess a bigger foil is slower, but speed isn't everything or is it?

Hello,

I have done the same experience with Wizard 105, supersession 6,0 and infinity 84with both rear wing c position + infinity 76 and B position 42 rear wing on one side.
I did compare it at sailing a falcon 148 and S-type 7,8 same foil.
with my 73-74kg and my poor pumping ability I come to the conclusion that I need a longueur board to be easier to pump (less pintch and nose dive)and more confortable in Less than 10-12kts
I recently found a wizard 125 second hand andI will test how it go.
this will give me both option in the futur for infinity99 or bigger sail.

it will be interesting to see the influence of rider weight when using a 99 on the wizard as base on the post reading I feel like lighter you are more back footed you will be.

I am finding I can get going on a 5.6 wave sail in around 10 knots.
Probably 1 or 2 knots more than I can when using full race gear (10m and 1000 wing).
Today I sailed 40kms in winds under or near 15knots on a 4.8 s1 and a naish sup wing - sat on 16 knots all day never broke 20kn but just enjoyed magic simple easy cruising.

Edit- at times today I could of easily been on smaller
4.2 perhaps ..... unfortunately I don't have ... yet

IMO most of the new crew are using wings too small
And sails too big, I recall foiling past crew on sails 2 meters bigger.

Small rig, Big wing and high volume but low drag hull for me.

I explored the bigger sail route with a 7.5 on the Moses 790. It works well particularly with a wide tail board. I could use that one sail from 8 knots up to twenty. I liked it from a racing stand point but it was not much fun in the surf. I changed my approach as I started to consider a bigger sail.

I have few sessions on the Moses 1100 wing so take my comments with a grain of salt as I still have the new purchase stoke. It has added another gear to say the least. It is very forgiving, hard to breach it and feels like a Cadillac with a big engine, smooth but fast. In the ocean it catches every wave in fact my first ride I was catching waves that I was not trying to. This wing pairs well with short period wave energy and that is what is commonly available. Yeah it feels a bit slower at times but not when you drop in a wave or bear off in a puff, it has good top end speed. Foiling is faster than slogging so my average speed is up. What surprised me the most was that it is still fun to ride up into the high teens wind speed, I don't feel I have to switch wings. Yesterday I rode this wing with a 5.8 sail in wind that varied from 8 knot lulls to 20 knot gusts, it worked well! It carves tight turns too you just gotta kill the sail load by laying it down or flagging it out.

I think the hull matters too. Folks with great skills on small floats can be really effective. For the rest of us a little more hull length and volume can help. I am building my next hull, it is designed for windfoil but takes cues from the surf foil boards and Casey Treichler's aproach. My wide tail board drags a wall of water behind it when you push the tail down to engage the foil. I like the tail kick concept for this reason it approximates a good displacement hull and the big wings lift you clear before planing speeds any way. The beveled rails let the hull release the surface tension which is a big deal. Try picking a SUP board straight up off the water by it's handle. Moving the foil forward moves the rider forward to the wide part of the outline so you have good leverage to get upwind. With the rider forward you can taper the volume and width of the tail to reduce the drag in low rider mode. Moving the foil forward improves light air upwind in low rider mode. I have lengthened the hull 6" up to 7' and the new shape has 15% less wetted surface over my current ride. Sail boat designers have learned that in light air a good sail area to wetted surface ratio is key. The windfoil racers know this, which is why those wings have a big span but less area and the sails are huge. I want the bigger cord on the wing though because it is way more stall resistant.

The pics are of the PLUG for next one, yeah it's going to be hollow and built in two female molds. Top and bottom then glassed together at the rail. I think this shape will work well with my 1100 wing. I'll keep ya posted.

Hey Snides the bloke with the 10m Phantom sail and foil was going a good 1 to 2 knots quicker on a reach than me.

Either I am getting old or he is really good.

Only the second foiler that has passed me on a reach when ive been planing on my big slalom gear.

Yesterday I thought the wind was stronger though I had a bigger sail up.

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tbwonder said..
Interesting topic, I nearly started a similar one today.
Throughout summer I was happy cruising around on my Moses 683 wing (1005cm2) with either a 5.5 or 6.5 no cam sail. With the onset of winter I have found myself experimenting with bigger and bigger race sails. I have used 7.0 and 7.7 4 cam race sails. Whilst these do get me going, they sap most of the fun out of foiling and are a nightmare to uphaul when full of water. I am considering buying a dedicated foil sail as apparently these are much lighter and have more low wind grunt than a traditional race sail, but I am starting to think I may be better off getting a Slingshot 84 foil instead and then I can use my 5.5 even on the light days.
I guess a bigger foil is slower, but speed isn't everything or is it?

Look at the bigger Moses wings. The 1100 is still very fast.

Edit: I'm REALLY interested in the build pictures of that hollow board. I think these thick and short foil boards are especially well suited to a hollow construction. I was thinking of doing it like the wood surfboard guys do with ribs etc.

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azymuth said..
Big wing, small sail
Dean (CoreAS) in Texas has light wind foiling dialed-in with his Infinity 99, Wizard 125 and 5.8 wave sail.
It seems that he easily gets going in 8-10 knots, not a whitecap in sight

Small wing, big sail
Tried the 99 and 84 but prefer the speed and maneuverability of the Infinity 76 in the ocean, so that's now my biggest wing.
To bring the low wind limit down similar to the 84 (for me a crappy pumper and W105, about 10 knots), I've upped sail size from 5.9 to 6.5, which I think is probably the biggest size I'd want to use to ride swells.

Stoked with the Enduro 6.5, rigs on a 430 RDM and 2m boom, pulls like a train with a super relaxed feel, but also pretty light so works great on small waves and wind swells. And no annoying batten flick mid-gybe that you get from a cammed sail.
Other benefits of a bigger sail in the ocean in light winds and chop - more sail pressure helps balance when grovelling and during tail-spin gybes, also easier to water-start.

So 2 ways to go I guess - interested what other freeride foilers are finding the best solution to have fun when it's light?

I would argue the 76 is a Large wing and the 99 is XL

Did someone mention race foil and large cambered race sail as a light wind option?

Cheers JJ.

This year we had a really good winter but the spring has been pretty ordinary and so we have had time to experiment with
winds around 5-15 knots more than usual.

All of the Dallas crew use completely different rigs and boards but we all agree on Slingshot foils and the i99 and i84 has been a game changer for a while now.

Bob likes the power and grunt of a big 8.5 sail, narrow Starboard Hypersonic board and i99
Brad like the finesse of a 5.6 Goya (4 batten wave sail) FS115 board and i99....He can also foil on a 4.5 in 8-10 knots or less.
Bruce likes 6.0 Ezzy Hydra sails, wider Horue boards (around 86cm wide) He is the lightest around 150 lbs and normally uses the i84 but is experimenting with the i99 as well.

Foilers looking to use a small rig, with big wing, I think get a little consumed with the fuselage position on the Slingshot foil.
Although it is very important of course, I read very little regarding sail type, mast stiffness, sail rigging etc.

I agree with what others have said and don't be afraid to tinker with mast base location...1 cm or 1/2" can make a board come alive (more so when you are pumping)

From my experimenting I first went down the race gear route...Wide board, big (HEAVY) sails etc, but after a while, I got bored foiling fast upwind, I just wanted to carve around with as smaller kit as possible, so got the Wizard 125 and Hover Glide foil.

For 5.8 sails, I use a hard top Maui Sails mast which react amazingly well when you are pumping. I rig with very little downhaul, just enough so the batten tips don't get stuck when foil gybing. I move my back foot around a lot to keep pressure on the i99 and it does take some TOW to find the balance etc. Pumping is essential and timing the light wind ripples, but once you get the foil to engage it will keep you chugging along :)

In the pic is Bob on a 8.5/i99 and Brad on a 4.5/i99 both foiling in 5-10 knots

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petermac33 said..
Hey Snides the bloke with the 10m Phantom sail and foil was going a good 1 to 2 knots quicker on a reach than me.

Either I am getting old or he is really good.

Only the second foiler that has passed me on a reach when ive been planing on my big slalom gear.

Yesterday I thought the wind was stronger though I had a bigger sail up.

he was on an 8m and a large wing.

Azymuth, for light winds my preference is smallish sail and big foil.
Smallish sail really suits me with shoulder issues (so lighter weight is easier to handle). The Naish lift 5.7 is as big as I need to go. It's super light as well with lots of grunt. The Naish Hover is really good for footstrap and foil adjustment on the board so you can get everything set up right so it's all balanced. I'm going in around 10-11 knots. Drawback is sail tops out around high teens in knots. Generally not an issue for us as the sea breezes are pretty constant. Foil is a 1570 cm2 Naish, so on the bigger side of foils but def not the biggest out there.
Have used cammed sails and hats off to all you sailors who tolerate them. You're far more patient than me. Bastard of a thing to rig, batten rotation often problematic and heavy to boot. Gimme a no-cammer anyday.

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snides8 said..

petermac33 said..
Hey Snides the bloke with the 10m Phantom sail and foil was going a good 1 to 2 knots quicker on a reach than me.

Either I am getting old or he is really good.

Only the second foiler that has passed me on a reach when ive been planing on my big slalom gear.

Yesterday I thought the wind was stronger though I had a bigger sail up.

he was on an 8m and a large wing.

I believe it was the 800cm wing, he was also hung over and sailing with one hand behind his back.

New to windfoil, I have the chance for a 2nd hand Slingshot set up: 84 infinity carbon, 42 rear wing, switch fuselage, 70 (or 90 as optional) alu mast. The goal is enjoy quickly learning foiling and maximize the very light wind days. Being slalom addicted I love reaching and drag racing. No interest in tricks, carving... What's the wind range of the set up? What's the board I need to find? Sail (size)?
i think racing stuff should be quicker but what's the real delta (during reaching, in 8/14 kts) between h/a and l/a foils?

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w100 said..
New to windfoil, I have the chance for a 2nd hand Slingshot set up: 84 infinity carbon, 42 rear wing, switch fuselage, 70 (or 90 as optional) alu mast. The goal is enjoy quickly learning foiling and maximize the very light wind days. Being slalom addicted I love reaching and drag racing. No interest in tricks, carving... What's the wind range of the set up? What's the board I need to find? Sail (size)?
i think racing stuff should be quicker but what's the real delta (during reaching, in 8/14 kts) between h/a and l/a foils?

The speed difference is noticeable assuming you have appropriate sail size to make the h/a foil go.

If you anticipate ditching your slalom gear and going 100% foil then I would skip the infinity and go for a race foil. If you want to use the 84 to fill in the wind ranges where you mostly are shlogging on your race gear then I would say go for the infinity 84, it wont be the fastest but it might be more functional/enjoyable in that very light wind range.....

Also if you want to be able to foil through your gybes much more easily go for an infinity wing. The guys on freeride wings are foiling through gybes much more consistently than those on race gear. This helps a lot because you can keep flying in wind that you could get back up on the foil on.

That wing would easily go up to 15 knots 20+ if you are a big dude

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w100 said..
New to windfoil, I have the chance for a 2nd hand Slingshot set up: 84 infinity carbon, 42 rear wing, switch fuselage, 70 (or 90 as optional) alu mast. The goal is enjoy quickly learning foiling and maximize the very light wind days. Being slalom addicted I love reaching and drag racing. No interest in tricks, carving... What's the wind range of the set up? What's the board I need to find? Sail (size)?
i think racing stuff should be quicker but what's the real delta (during reaching, in 8/14 kts) between h/a and l/a foils?

That's a great setup for learning and I think once you've got the hang of it you'll be well positioned to know which direction you'll head next. Could be a full race-foil or it could be a smaller Infinity-type wing for high wind bump and jump. To start with I think any big slalom board with a deep Tuttle box should be fine, with the wing in C position probably. Go for the 90cm mast - it's much easier to learn on. I'm a big guy and have an i84 and a big slalom board and feel fine up to about 20kt windspeed with higher gusts, although really 14 is kinda perfect with a 7.0 Flyer. You sail size will depend on your weight and pumping ability. If you're a skilled pumper (I'm not) then you probably can use a 5.7 as your biggest sail.

It's easy to get lost in optimization scenarios and lose track of just getting it to work. I've sailed my i84 with a very light Hotsails 10.0 really happily, although ideally a 10.0 goes best with a race foil, and I've had a 5.8 rigged in 25+, although of course a 4.0 would have been easier. Get the setup if it's in good shape, rig something about 1.5sqm smaller than you would with a fin, and get wet, and you'll know what to do next.

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w100 said..
New to windfoil, I have the chance for a 2nd hand Slingshot set up: 84 infinity carbon, 42 rear wing, switch fuselage, 70 (or 90 as optional) alu mast. The goal is enjoy quickly learning foiling and maximize the very light wind days. Being slalom addicted I love reaching and drag racing. No interest in tricks, carving... What's the wind range of the set up? What's the board I need to find? Sail (size)?
i think racing stuff should be quicker but what's the real delta (during reaching, in 8/14 kts) between h/a and l/a foils?

I have an infinity 84 which use with a formula board and sails from 8.2 race fully cambered sail to 4.2 wave sail. I reach 17 knots every day and three days ago I reached 20 knots. I feel that with this foil you get to that speed and it hits a wall (it doesn't want to go faster than that). I think you might be able to go a little bit faster is the water is totally flat but I would not expect miracles.
race wings (e.g., SB race- race pro) are definitely faster. Some buddies who use race foils and foil dedicated sails are getting on the foil as fast as me (same weight but better foilers) and they are able to glide through lulls longer distances.

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WillyWind said..

w100 said..
New to windfoil, I have the chance for a 2nd hand Slingshot set up: 84 infinity carbon, 42 rear wing, switch fuselage, 70 (or 90 as optional) alu mast. The goal is enjoy quickly learning foiling and maximize the very light wind days. Being slalom addicted I love reaching and drag racing. No interest in tricks, carving... What's the wind range of the set up? What's the board I need to find? Sail (size)?
i think racing stuff should be quicker but what's the real delta (during reaching, in 8/14 kts) between h/a and l/a foils?

I have an infinity 84 which use with a formula board and sails from 8.2 race fully cambered sail to 4.2 wave sail. I reach 17 knots every day and three days ago I reached 20 knots. I feel that with this foil you get to that speed and it hits a wall (it doesn't want to go faster than that). I think you might be able to go a little bit faster is the water is totally flat but I would not expect miracles.
race wings (e.g., SB race- race pro) are definitely faster. Some buddies who use race foils and foil dedicated sails are getting on the foil as fast as me (same weight but better foilers) and they are able to glide through lulls longer distances.

BTW, I weigh 77 kilos. I use the 8.2 for very light wind (7-8 knots I would guess) and I pump like crazy to get flying in some gusts. As soon as there are very scattered whitecaps I use a 6.7 two cam and I could even use a 6.0 freeride (buy where I sail is pretty gusty so I rig bigger to be on the foil more time).
as AWalkspoiled said, I would go with the longer mast. If the price is right, I would go for it. I think you will have fun. And most likely you will be able to sell it Without problem if you decide to get something racier later on

I'm experiencing more with larger sails with the i84 and I'm having great success! When I say larger sails, I'm referring to a 6.8 and 6.0 sizes in 10-15 mph wind ranges. If I go too small I can't get on foil. So I have been rigging bigger and just sheeting out in gusts. I don't like having to come back and rig again. So I rig on the bigger side to account for lighter winds that arrive after I'm on the water so I can foil in those winds too. It's a win win!

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MagicRide said..
I'm experiencing more with larger sails with the i84 and I'm having great success! When I say larger sails, I'm referring to a 6.8 and 6.0 sizes in 10-15 mph wind ranges. If I go too small I can't get on foil. So I have been rigging bigger and just sheeting out in gusts. I don't like having to come back and rig again. So I rig on the bigger side to account for lighter winds that arrive after I'm on the water so I can foil in those winds too. It's a win win!

When you get hit by the bigger gusts, try heading upwind more while keeping the sail sheeted in rather than sheeting out and taking mast foot pressure off the board. :)

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Maddlad said..

MagicRide said..
I'm experiencing more with larger sails with the i84 and I'm having great success! When I say larger sails, I'm referring to a 6.8 and 6.0 sizes in 10-15 mph wind ranges. If I go too small I can't get on foil. So I have been rigging bigger and just sheeting out in gusts. I don't like having to come back and rig again. So I rig on the bigger side to account for lighter winds that arrive after I'm on the water so I can foil in those winds too. It's a win win!

When you get hit by the bigger gusts, try heading upwind more while keeping the sail sheeted in rather than sheeting out and taking mast foot pressure off the board. :)

To better clarify everything, I've been rigging more on the bigger side to account for winds lightening up while on the water, but I failed to mention if the wind comes up stronger and I become overpowered, I unhook, lean more forward, sheet out and just ride the front wing. If I'm still hooked in overpowered, I over foil way too easily. I have the uni joint in a spot that works for all my sails. Just more convenient to keep the uni joint in one spot. All my sails are very balanced with the uni joint set all the way back. But if I'm overpowered, I unhook, sheet out, lean forward and ride the front wing. I don't feel comfortable being overpowered on foil while being hooked in, but as soon as I unhook, and sheet out, all is good. I can't sheet in being overpowered unhooked, my arms won't handle it.

I agree with MagicRide, easing is a good thing in windfoil just as in most other forms of sailing. It is not fun to keep the sail load on in the gusts for the purpose of keeping the foil down. If you move your sail back closer to the foil it has less effect on pitch control. It takes a minute to adjust but the result is that you learn to move your weight more, then you can ease and luff a bit in the gusts. This is less stressful and more fun. The "keep the hammer down" approach is for race kits.

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utcminusfour said..It is not fun to keep the sail load on in the gusts for the purpose of keeping the foil down. If you move your sail back closer to the foil it has less effect on pitch control. The "keep the hammer down" approach is for race kits.

Good to freeride foil both de-powered and powered up.

In strong winds (say over 25 knots) I find it's easier to downwind with power in the sail, back hand pulled in.
This creates pressure on the mast base which together with shifting weight forward over my front leg keeps the foil down to counter increased lift from accelerating down swells.
It also stops the sail from flogging which happens if I try and downwind (in strong winds) de-powered.

I think the ability to downwind carve with power is an advantage we have over kite foilers and wind-wingers

De-powering the sail downwind is fun in lighter winds.

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azymuth said..

utcminusfour said..It is not fun to keep the sail load on in the gusts for the purpose of keeping the foil down. If you move your sail back closer to the foil it has less effect on pitch control. The "keep the hammer down" approach is for race kits.

Good to freeride foil both de-powered and powered up.

In strong winds (say over 25 knots) I find it's easier to downwind with power in the sail, back hand pulled in.
This creates pressure on the mast base which together with shifting weight forward over my front leg keeps the foil down to counter increased lift from accelerating down swells.
It also stops the sail from flogging which happens if I try and downwind (in strong winds) de-powered.

I think the ability to downwind carve with power is an advantage we have over kite foilers and wind-wingers

De-powering the sail downwind is fun in lighter winds.

Respect!

Azymuth, How are you finding the Enduro? Tempted to get one as a step up from my 5.3 icon. Board is 125 Wizard and i76 wing. Does it pump nicely? I've used a 6.0 vmax but it needs wind pressure to fill it and give it shape, hopefully the enduro will be just the job.

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foilbrainz said..Azymuth, How are you finding the Enduro? Tempted to get one as a step up from my 5.3 icon. Board is 125 Wizard and i76 wing. Does it pump nicely? I've used a 6.0 vmax but it needs wind pressure to fill it and give it shape, hopefully the enduro will be just the job.

The Simmer Enduro 6.5m is great - light and heaps of controllable power.
I use it for light winds (10-15 knots) with my Wizard 105 and Infinity 76 (I'm 81 kgs).

It pumps fine although I often sail with the 6.5 when others are on a size smaller so that I don't have to pump

Flies upwind even when the wind is light and also pretty maneuverable downwind.
Yesterday's tracks - SSE 12-14 knots;

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w100 said..
New to windfoil, I have the chance for a 2nd hand Slingshot set up: 84 infinity carbon, 42 rear wing, switch fuselage, 70 (or 90 as optional) alu mast. The goal is enjoy quickly learning foiling and maximize the very light wind days. Being slalom addicted I love reaching and drag racing. No interest in tricks, carving... What's the wind range of the set up? What's the board I need to find? Sail (size)?
i think racing stuff should be quicker but what's the real delta (during reaching, in 8/14 kts) between h/a and l/a foils?

Hi - one year or so ago I was where you are. I used the i84 almost entirely the first year with the long mast (don't bother with the short mast). I used the 160L SS Levitator which was great. The i84 is not the fastest wing and it will not give you awesome upwind performance BUT - it's a super fun and very easy (and easy going) wing. It's very easy to pump on foil. I used a 6.8 Duotone f-type sail for the most part as my biggest sail. I used a North 4.0 SuperHero as my smallest sail and I used that combo is high wind conditions. I'm 195 lbs/6.2 to be comfortable I need 9-10 knots without pumping non-stop.

I've found a pretty good sweet spot in the SS 99 Wing and the 5.8 Duotone F-Type in winds in the 10-14knt range. The soft cambers are easy to rig and the sail gives tons of power for its size. I'm 198lbs. For ocean wave/swell I'm still getting the 99 dialed as it provides a lot of energy with the waves. I think I need to pair up the 99 with the big 48 back wing for stability.

If the wind picks up to upper teens, I keep the 5.8 but go to the H4/Space Skate which does very well in higher winds and feels great in the turns. I'm enjoying foiling so much I'm actually thinking of getting the i65 SS for windier days if the chop on the windsurf board is too much hassle.

DC

Slightly OT

Azymuth,

Going great here on the 76, but any tips for getting more speed out of it? I'm topping out at 17 knots but often seem to spend all day at about 14-15.

I65 is much faster, I just need to get it dialled for consistent flight in lighter airs, more Hull speed and sail power should solve that. Seems it likes to be driven from the back foot a little more!

Small gain in speed, huge gain removing drag, might need 2 more pumps every time and 2 mph more speed.
600 foils are not much different than foils more than double the size.
Now...triple is another story.