Hello
I wanted to know if someone has tested at windfoiling these two type of boards: the multipurpose windsurfing/windfoiling/supsurfing like the JP foil slate and the specific windfoiling ones like the freestyle Slingshot, Zeeko, RRD pocket Rocket, JP windsurf foil, etc (some of these are used also for other foiling sports such as supfoiling but not for anything without foil).

All the specific windfoiling boards have a very thick tail which is supposed to make easier flying, but the multipurpose boards don't have such a thick tail because they need a thin tail to surf as windsurf/supsurf boards. However you can see on internet both type of boards flying in light winds without effort.

Which are the really important board features for flying early and easily? Is a thick tail mandatory or at least convenient? Only for beginners?

Thanks.

The pic you see are only a moment in time.
In every case, a thicker tail performs better in light winds.
A thinner tail can work fine when the wind is sufficient.
Some windsurf boards have thick tails.

And some foil boards have thin tails, but the following year they made the tail thicker.

A thicker tail will require less power to get going. If you like enough power to waterstart when foiling then you will probably enjoy the thinner tail, if you prefer having less power then the thick tail will work significantly better.

I've used 2 multipurpose boards quite a lot for windfoiling (F-One papenoo 124 & 95), and to be honest, its more a (foil)sup board you can also use for windfoiling than the other way round. The thin tails and sup outline + rocker pretty much make those kind of boards quite bad windfoil boards, the volume is in the center, and the boards are generally too thin/ big in terms of dimensions. The rocker adds to the late planing / relatively bad pumping characteristics.

The same goes for similar boards; SB Hypernut, Naish hover convertible etc.etc.

We've for this year removed all sizes but one from the lineup because its really more of a niche product than a multipurpise product, and the eventual userbase is very small / specific.

If you want to sup / foilsup / foilsurf a lot and sometimes windfoil aswell these boards might be for you.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I've used 2 multipurpose boards quite a lot for windfoiling (F-One papenoo 124 & 95), and to be honest, its more a (foil)sup board you can also use for windfoiling than the other way round. The thin tails and sup outline + rocker pretty much make those kind of boards quite bad windfoil boards, the volume is in the center, and the boards are generally too thin/ big in terms of dimensions. The rocker adds to the late planing / relatively bad pumping characteristics.

The same goes for similar boards; SB Hypernut, Naish hover convertible etc.etc.

We've for this year removed all sizes but one from the lineup because its really more of a niche product than a multipurpise product, and the eventual userbase is very small / specific.

If you want to sup / foilsup / foilsurf a lot and sometimes windfoil aswell these boards might be for you.

Thanks, very interesting information. My intention is to use windfoiling only for very light wind. Besides I guess the position of the foil quite centered of these multipurpose boards is not good for windfoiling.

I hope if I could use the same board for another purpose and not having so many sup/windsurf boards. Then I heard that maybe a freestyle windsurfing board could be the best option to use the foil in light wind and change to regular fin when it gets stronger. Maybe a big tail freeride board could also be used in the same way? On the other hand, freewave boards have very small and thin tails so they wouldn't be suitable.

In super light wind the freestyle board probably wouldn't work unless you are very light weight at which point it'll be a bit big for fin use.

Yeah I agree with GrantMac for very light wind foiling you will probably benefit from foil specific board. But why only very light wind?

If you are good with finning in light wind then I would not bother getting foiling gear just for very light wind. Its cool for sure in very light wind, but great in light to medium wind.

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thedoor said..
Its cool for sure in very light wind, but great in light to medium wind.

And foiling is most fun of all in strong winds when you get proper windswells

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azymuth said..

thedoor said..
Its cool for sure in very light wind, but great in light to medium wind.

And foiling is most fun of all in strong winds when you get proper windswells

Hell yes. Like my session today

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azymuth said..

thedoor said..
Its cool for sure in very light wind, but great in light to medium wind.

And foiling is most fun of all in strong winds when you get proper windswells

I wanted windfoiling for light wind only because I thought to continue windsurfing in medium and strong winds. Do you only need one single windfoiling board for light and strong winds? Maybe it's easier to have only one board because you don't bump in choppy waters?

How strong?
Seen plenty of free riders with 78cm wide and 230 length boards go down to 3.7 sails and 30 knot winds.
Smaller boards for air moves.

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Lecum said..

azymuth said..

thedoor said..
Its cool for sure in very light wind, but great in light to medium wind.

And foiling is most fun of all in strong winds when you get proper windswells

I wanted windfoiling for light wind only because I thought to continue windsurfing in medium and strong winds. Do you only need one single windfoiling board for light and strong winds? Maybe it's easier to have only one board because you don't bump in choppy waters?

In theory 1 board is enough, like LeeD says, around 78 wide is the perfect size for that. With sails 6.5-3.7 and about 10 knots up for the average practicioner I think.

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Lecum said..

azymuth said..

thedoor said..
Its cool for sure in very light wind, but great in light to medium wind.

And foiling is most fun of all in strong winds when you get proper windswells

I wanted windfoiling for light wind only because I thought to continue windsurfing in medium and strong winds. Do you only need one single windfoiling board for light and strong winds? Maybe it's easier to have only one board because you don't bump in choppy waters?

You can get by with one board for light to strong winds, for me it is the freestyle 115/infinity 76 (5.7 to 3.7) but for super light winds you will benefit from a bigger board and larger wing, and this fat combo would handle superlight to medium winds.

As stated above, the range on foilboards is larger than on windsurfers even without changing wings

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WhiteofHeart said..
I've used 2 multipurpose boards quite a lot for windfoiling (F-One papenoo 124 & 95), and to be honest, its more a (foil)sup board you can also use for windfoiling than the other way round. The thin tails and sup outline + rocker pretty much make those kind of boards quite bad windfoil boards, the volume is in the center, and the boards are generally too thin/ big in terms of dimensions. The rocker adds to the late planing / relatively bad pumping characteristics.

The same goes for similar boards; SB Hypernut, Naish hover convertible etc.etc.

We've for this year removed all sizes but one from the lineup because its really more of a niche product than a multipurpise product, and the eventual userbase is very small / specific.

If you want to sup / foilsup / foilsurf a lot and sometimes windfoil aswell these boards might be for you.

I have to disagree with what you're saying about the multipurpose boards.
Since 4 years I'm using these boards for windfoiling, and I don't see the negatives as significant as you do.
My boards are custom made, but have a shape like the Papenoo, just a little thicker and with a dedicated Windfoil strap and foilbox setup.
These boards work maybe not 100% in each discipline, but I'd say about minimum 90% and save you a lot of dedicated boards for each discipline.
Alex

It does seem like the wing foiling boards tend to have a relatively low volume sloped tail, whereas the windfoiling boards tend to have lots of volume in the back. My thought was the volume is useful to pop the board onto the foil similar to popping a freestyle board and because you need that volume back there because that is where you are standing before you get up onto the foil.

I know a lot of foilers who get in to foiling as a light wind option (me included), but once your skills improve you start to realize that pretty much all conditions become more fun on a foil. I have seven slalom boards and one 85cm wide dedicated foil board that I use with sails from 4.6m to 7.7m. In the last year 90% of my sessions are on the foil board, I can foil from about 7 kts up. If it gets above 20 kts which is rare where I live, I think about using a fin.
Get a dedicated board, once you master it, there is no going back.

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thedoor said..
It does seem like the wing foiling boards tend to have a relatively low volume sloped tail, whereas the windfoiling boards tend to have lots of volume in the back. My thought was the volume is useful to pop the board onto the foil similar to popping a freestyle board and because you need that volume back there because that is where you are standing before you get up onto the foil.

Hello again. What about comming back to shore without flying once the wind has dropped with those small 6' windfoiling thick boards? Is it easy to sail and go upwind with them and come back safely?
Thanks.

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Lecum said..I wanted windfoiling for light wind only because I thought to continue windsurfing in medium and strong winds. Do you only need one single windfoiling board for light and strong winds? Maybe it's easier to have only one board because you don't bump in choppy waters?

The Slingshot Wizard 105 is popular here as a one board solution for 10-30 knots for crew under about 85 kgs.
Over 85 kgs the Wizard 125 is the go

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Lecum said..

thedoor said..
It does seem like the wing foiling boards tend to have a relatively low volume sloped tail, whereas the windfoiling boards tend to have lots of volume in the back. My thought was the volume is useful to pop the board onto the foil similar to popping a freestyle board and because you need that volume back there because that is where you are standing before you get up onto the foil.

Hello again. What about comming back to shore without flying once the wind has dropped with those small 6' windfoiling thick boards? Is it easy to sail and go upwind with them and come back safely?
Thanks.

I am an 85kg sailor usually on 5.5 to 7.3 sails. I own a Wizard 125l and it is great for slogging back to the beach when the wind dies, which is often in my neck of the woods.

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Lecum said..

thedoor said..
It does seem like the wing foiling boards tend to have a relatively low volume sloped tail, whereas the windfoiling boards tend to have lots of volume in the back. My thought was the volume is useful to pop the board onto the foil similar to popping a freestyle board and because you need that volume back there because that is where you are standing before you get up onto the foil.

Hello again. What about comming back to shore without flying once the wind has dropped with those small 6' windfoiling thick boards? Is it easy to sail and go upwind with them and come back safely?
Thanks.

Yes, they schlog very well for a board so short and the also go upwind very well when not flying too, certainly better than a regular windsurf shortboard.

The beauty of windfoiling is that you can use a larger volume board in high winds than you would normally use, because its off the water, so you have more volume to get to the wind line or return home when the wind dies. Also the foil mast gives a lot of lateral resistance. The only downside is that you have often have to walk the board back due to lack of water near shore.

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thedoor said..

Lecum said..

thedoor said..
It does seem like the wing foiling boards tend to have a relatively low volume sloped tail, whereas the windfoiling boards tend to have lots of volume in the back. My thought was the volume is useful to pop the board onto the foil similar to popping a freestyle board and because you need that volume back there because that is where you are standing before you get up onto the foil.

Hello again. What about comming back to shore without flying once the wind has dropped with those small 6' windfoiling thick boards? Is it easy to sail and go upwind with them and come back safely?
Thanks.

Yes, they schlog very well for a board so short and the also go upwind very well when not flying too, certainly better than a regular windsurf shortboard.

The beauty of windfoiling is that you can use a larger volume board in high winds than you would normally use, because its off the water, so you have more volume to get to the wind line or return home when the wind dies. Also the foil mast gives a lot of lateral resistance. The only downside is that you have often have to walk the board back due to lack of water near shore.

Thank you so much, very interesting. And what is better for flying earlier and easier in very light wind, with or without straps?

Pumping skill and willingness to pump is key.
Strap matters little.
Technique is premium.

Lecum, I think having a front foot strap to jam your foot in makes a big difference for pumping up and getting the foil to fly. I find things work much more efficiently if the front foot is anchored. Back strap not important for me - even once flying.
While the board design is important for getting going, the other thing that makes a BIG difference is getting the right foil to fly early. Rather than going out and spending potentially big $ on a new board, have you considered what a different foil may bring to what you're aiming to do with foiling?

I am a big fan of at least the front strap even in light wind. I think it helps orient my body so I am close to standing in the right spot and I kind of think i pull up on it when trying to pop onto the foil, but this might just be my imagination.

The other thing I will say about multi sport foil boards is that with the rate people are jumping to wing foiling maybe starting with a multisport foil board makes sense.

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Lecum said..

thedoor said..

Lecum said..

thedoor said..
It does seem like the wing foiling boards tend to have a relatively low volume sloped tail, whereas the windfoiling boards tend to have lots of volume in the back. My thought was the volume is useful to pop the board onto the foil similar to popping a freestyle board and because you need that volume back there because that is where you are standing before you get up onto the foil.

Hello again. What about comming back to shore without flying once the wind has dropped with those small 6' windfoiling thick boards? Is it easy to sail and go upwind with them and come back safely?
Thanks.

Yes, they schlog very well for a board so short and the also go upwind very well when not flying too, certainly better than a regular windsurf shortboard.

The beauty of windfoiling is that you can use a larger volume board in high winds than you would normally use, because its off the water, so you have more volume to get to the wind line or return home when the wind dies. Also the foil mast gives a lot of lateral resistance. The only downside is that you have often have to walk the board back due to lack of water near shore.

Thank you so much, very interesting. And what is better for flying earlier and easier in very light wind, with or without straps?

Lecum,
Front straps help. After learning to foil without straps, try front straps, then later, try back straps.

While I am not yet a great pumper, for light winds; I find a few pumps out of straps, then foot in front, then get flying, then think about back strap works.

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martyj4 said..
Lecum, I think having a front foot strap to jam your foot in makes a big difference for pumping up and getting the foil to fly. I find things work much more efficiently if the front foot is anchored. Back strap not important for me - even once flying.
While the board design is important for getting going, the other thing that makes a BIG difference is getting the right foil to fly early. Rather than going out and spending potentially big $ on a new board, have you considered what a different foil may bring to what you're aiming to do with foiling?

Hello martyj4
Regarding the foil size I agree with you but I finally ordered the neilpryde glidewind size S for the following reasons. However I must admit I have some doubts. Maybe I will have to change my old board to gain a few knots.
- Very good price
- It's the size recommended by the neilpryde agent for me (69 kg, sail 5,6 m2, wind range 12-15 knots)
- There is a french guy on internet who has tested all the glidewind sizes and says the size M doesn't lift more than size S and has less maneubrability and speed. He weights only 60 Kg. He recommends size S for weight less than 80 kg
- Last year I couldn't get the foil because I ordered size M and neilpryde never has it in stock

That's why I asked you for your weight, to compare. My main target is flying in 12 knots with the smallest sail, and ride some small swells easily

KR

I am trying a board along these lines for my second home brew foil board it measures 7' long 29" wide 5" thick and 153 liters and the images below are the almost finished design.

I went high volume and wide tail on my first go 6.5' long 34" wide 5" thick and 180 liters. I love the volume (I weigh 220 lbs), the get home float and the leverage over the foil. I do not love the wall of water that it tows behind in displacement mode. While it is stable it is not fast in light air unless I carry a big sail.

I looked at the 6'8" JP sup foil, Casey Treichler's "goose", Dave Kalama's and Dwight Fisher's www.supsurfmachines.com work as guide for this one. I basically scale up the Sup foil concept and took rocker out of the bottom panel but the upper chine has some sweep. The yellow reference shape in the bottom image is the JP.

What I am hoping to get is a smaller easier to carry board that will sail well in displacement mode and sail onto foil sooner encouraging me to rig smaller sails. This is as small as I dare go volume wise, I HATE sinkers! The profile view with the lines is how it will float with me standing just aft of the mast base. I will pair this with a Mosses 85 mast with the 790 and 1100 front wings. I will ride strapless so I need to think about a hand hold yet. I may never SUP foil or Wing it but I bet it would work for bigger riders.

I would be curious what Ya'll think before I start shaping the foam.

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utcminusfour said..
I am trying a board along these lines for my second home brew foil board it measures 7' long 29" wide 5" thick and 153 liters and the images below are the almost finished design.

I went high volume and wide tail on my first go 6.5' long 34" wide 5" thick and 180 liters. I love the volume (I weigh 220 lbs), the get home float and the leverage over the foil. I do not love the wall of water that it tows behind in displacement mode. While it is stable it is not fast in light air unless I carry a big sail.

I looked at the 6'8" JP sup foil, Casey Treichler's "goose", Dave Kalama's and Dwight Fisher's www.supsurfmachines.com work as guide for this one. I basically scale up the Sup foil concept and took rocker out of the bottom panel but the upper chine has some sweep. The yellow reference shape in the bottom image is the JP.

What I am hoping to get is a smaller easier to carry board that will sail well in displacement mode and sail onto foil sooner encouraging me to rig smaller sails. This is as small as I dare go volume wise, I HATE sinkers! The profile view with the lines is how it will float with me standing just aft of the mast base. I will pair this with a Mosses 85 mast with the 790 and 1100 front wings. I will ride strapless so I need to think about a hand hold yet. I may never SUP foil or Wing it but I bet it would work for bigger riders.

I would be curious what Ya'll think before I start shaping the foam.

First of all, amazing that you can create such a thing. Its interesting that you modeled it more after a supfoil than a light wind oriented windfoilboard.

My guesses:
The rail chimes in the rear half of the board will add little benefit but significantly decrease directional stability when schlogging, which doesn't matter too much, but it will make sail pumping more tricky because there is less side rail to direct the force of the of the sail in a forward linear direction. I noticed this immediately when I switched from wizard 105 which has a more boxy shape versus my freestyle 115 which has a skimboard outline. In the freestyle less of the rail adds lateral resistance to the direction of sailing, so I had to pump with the board sailing off the wind a bit more. I think those full length chines will also decrease this rail induced lateral resistance.

I think we don't really know the value of the "tail chine" for wind foiling, but as you have extended the tail beyond the tracks to add the "tail chine" it probably cannot harm things.

Thanks thedoor, I should say that I have worked in the yacht and ship design industry for decades.

Yeah it will be interesting, This is almost the opposite design concept of my current board which I modeled after race boards and it is sticky in light air because of all the wetted surface. I am painting in broad brush strokes so I can try out all the concepts in less time. Trying to sort my way through all the conflicting info like for touch downs you want "flat bottom with hard rails" while another camp says you need "bevels'. So I am trying both on different boards.

I hear ya about pumping, the details of the hull can effect it. So can the placement of the foil. On my current set up I have been sliding the foil forwards in the track and the sail back in it's track. When I push that all the way I can feel a bit of crankyness when pumping but I am getting better at it and yeah, I am pumping further off the wind. This next board will allow me to shrink the front wing to sail distance even further and will put my weight in the middle of the board all the time so it should transtion between modes well. We will see, it is not possible to fail with project, it is about the journey and the learning.