OK. This question come out of this quote:

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LeeD said..
Been foiling with a guy with that board and Glide S/M for 15 of the past 20 days now.
Works just like his old JP 135.

RRD Pocket Rocket, SB Foil X 145, SS Freestyle 115, Naish Micro Hover ... - are those boards make real difference comparing to normal, conventional foil boards. I'm talking about riding sensation not storage convenience.

Select to expand quote

motogon said..
OK. This question come out of this quote:

LeeD said..
Been foiling with a guy with that board and Glide S/M for 15 of the past 20 days now.
Works just like his old JP 135.

RRD Pocket Rocket, SB Foil X 145, SS Freestyle 115, Naish Micro Hover ... - are those boards make real difference comparing to normal, conventional foil boards. I'm talking about riding sensation not storage convenience.

LeeD can be sarcastic at times, so its always good to clarify.

For me switching to a smaller foil board impacts the riding experience far less than switching to a smaller finned board, because you are riding the foil not the board. Footstrap placement is more important, I find the inboard/center rear strap of my freestyle more enjoyable to ride, because I can maneuver the board very well without moving my feet. When I am on the wider higher volume levitator (no back strap) I have to move my back foot port and starboard to get the board to turn. Another thing I notice with the levi, is that during gybing as my old front foot is closer to the rail (even when in the inboard setting) I have to offset this with a much greater leeside placement of the old back foot and a significant lean of the sail, to counter balance things.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

motogon said..
OK. This question come out of this quote:

LeeD said..
Been foiling with a guy with that board and Glide S/M for 15 of the past 20 days now.
Works just like his old JP 135.

RRD Pocket Rocket, SB Foil X 145, SS Freestyle 115, Naish Micro Hover ... - are those boards make real difference comparing to normal, conventional foil boards. I'm talking about riding sensation not storage convenience.

LeeD can be sarcastic at times, so its always good to clarify.

For me switching to a smaller foil board impacts the riding experience far less than switching to a smaller finned board, because you are riding the foil not the board. Footstrap placement is more important, I find the inboard/center rear strap of my freestyle more enjoyable to ride, because I can maneuver the board very well without moving my feet. When I am on the wider higher volume levitator (no back strap) I have to move my back foot port and starboard to get the board to turn. Another thing I notice with the levi, is that during gybing as my old front foot is closer to the rail (even when in the inboard setting) I have to offset this with a much greater leeside placement of the old back foot and a significant lean of the sail, to counter balance things.

Sorry for the offtopic question, but is "levitator" new slang for "foil board"?

Select to expand quote

Faff said..

thedoor said..

motogon said..
OK. This question come out of this quote:

LeeD said..
Been foiling with a guy with that board and Glide S/M for 15 of the past 20 days now.
Works just like his old JP 135.

RRD Pocket Rocket, SB Foil X 145, SS Freestyle 115, Naish Micro Hover ... - are those boards make real difference comparing to normal, conventional foil boards. I'm talking about riding sensation not storage convenience.

LeeD can be sarcastic at times, so its always good to clarify.

For me switching to a smaller foil board impacts the riding experience far less than switching to a smaller finned board, because you are riding the foil not the board. Footstrap placement is more important, I find the inboard/center rear strap of my freestyle more enjoyable to ride, because I can maneuver the board very well without moving my feet. When I am on the wider higher volume levitator (no back strap) I have to move my back foot port and starboard to get the board to turn. Another thing I notice with the levi, is that during gybing as my old front foot is closer to the rail (even when in the inboard setting) I have to offset this with a much greater leeside placement of the old back foot and a significant lean of the sail, to counter balance things.

Sorry for the offtopic question, but is "levitator" new slang for "foil board"?

He is talking about Slingshot Levitator.
www.slingshotsports.com/2019-Levitator

Compact foilboards are better in every way except for early planing. Way more manouvrable. Next to that obvious improvement, an especially big plus for me is they need less lift to keep flying due to the shorter nose. Easier to fly through jibes / lulls and pump. Just generally if you enter a lull with 2 boards which are equal in all aspects but the length, the shorter one keeps flying for longer because you have more reserve power under the backfoot.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..
Compact foilboards are better in every way except for early planing. Way more manouvrable. Next to that obvious improvement, an especially big plus for me is they need less lift to keep flying due to the shorter nose. Easier to fly through jibes / lulls and pump. Just generally if you enter a lull with 2 boards which are equal in all aspects but the length, the shorter one keeps flying for longer because you have more reserve power under the backfoot.

I did not consider this. Even though the rider off sets the extra nose length with other settings (straps, mast base +/- foil mast) so it flys fine, when the foil lift drops it will require more back foot pressure to overcome this heavier bigger nose?

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

WhiteofHeart said..
Compact foilboards are better in every way except for early planing. Way more manouvrable. Next to that obvious improvement, an especially big plus for me is they need less lift to keep flying due to the shorter nose. Easier to fly through jibes / lulls and pump. Just generally if you enter a lull with 2 boards which are equal in all aspects but the length, the shorter one keeps flying for longer because you have more reserve power under the backfoot.

I did not consider this. Even though the rider off sets the extra nose length with other settings (straps, mast base +/- foil mast) so it flys fine, when the foil lift drops it will require more back foot pressure to overcome this heavier bigger nose?

In my experience that is exactly the case. I have to say, I ride my boards with equal settings (max power), so with my shorter boards I have a little more power than with my longer boards. I like it that way, just enhances manouvrability when I have the back foot out and pop for jumping with the back foot in for the smaller boards, and with the bigger freeride boards I want straight line performance anyway (in the straps blasting) so a little less power is fine.

Something I immediately noticed and really appreciate on the Naish Micro that I now use is the visual aspect. Not what the board looks like but rather as I look forwards while foiling I pretty much only see water, something that a lot of ex-windsurfers now kiting say they like as well about kiting. The nose of the board doesn't come into your peripheral vision. Small thing but pretty cool.

Select to expand quote

motogon said..

Faff said..

thedoor said..

motogon said..
OK. This question come out of this quote:

LeeD said..
Been foiling with a guy with that board and Glide S/M for 15 of the past 20 days now.
Works just like his old JP 135.

RRD Pocket Rocket, SB Foil X 145, SS Freestyle 115, Naish Micro Hover ... - are those boards make real difference comparing to normal, conventional foil boards. I'm talking about riding sensation not storage convenience.

LeeD can be sarcastic at times, so its always good to clarify.

For me switching to a smaller foil board impacts the riding experience far less than switching to a smaller finned board, because you are riding the foil not the board. Footstrap placement is more important, I find the inboard/center rear strap of my freestyle more enjoyable to ride, because I can maneuver the board very well without moving my feet. When I am on the wider higher volume levitator (no back strap) I have to move my back foot port and starboard to get the board to turn. Another thing I notice with the levi, is that during gybing as my old front foot is closer to the rail (even when in the inboard setting) I have to offset this with a much greater leeside placement of the old back foot and a significant lean of the sail, to counter balance things.

Sorry for the offtopic question, but is "levitator" new slang for "foil board"?

He is talking about Slingshot Levitator.
www.slingshotsports.com/2019-Levitator

Lol, ok. That's a great name.

So how small is too small ???
Here is a 170 x 66 approx 87 litres :)))
Been waiting for some wind to get rider feedback

Had a few runs on this 1.4m bad boy a few days ago.
Makes the Freestyle 87L feel like a supertanker

Swing weight is real - noticeable when you don't have any, heaps looser.


Not as handsome as Darryl's board, I'll grant you

Thats pretty extreme JJ. Love it
You could have used matching foot straps at least

No expense is spared with JJ.
but now he's got me thinking of a winter project

Hey azymuth, that's a cool classic! Tell us more about that board. What was it in a previous life?

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DarrylG said..
Thats pretty extreme JJ. Love it
You could have used matching foot straps at least

Points deducted...

I'm curious if the vent screw kept him from going shorter? (Semi-kidding, semi-serious)

Were the rails just glassed over or did you do a sandwich?

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..
Had a few runs on this 1.4m bad boy a few days ago.
Makes the Freestyle 87L feel like a supertanker

Swing weight is real - noticeable when you don't have any, heaps looser.


Not as handsome as Darryl's board, I'll grant you

Do you want to comment on the impact of the more forward mast track on the frankenstein board?

Hi, RE size of the board, it really puzzles me why the pros ride 177-190 l type of boards, while for eg JP and Naish primarily wants to sell me 120-135 l boards. And to much surprise, with race foot straps far out on the rails. It is so counterintuitive. I would have expected large boards and straps much more inside to be friendly for standard weekend foilers. Why is this? (However, Slingy got it all figured out it seems to me.)

Select to expand quote

Delta99 said..
Hi, RE size of the board, it really puzzles me why the pros ride 177-190 l type of boards, while for eg JP and Naish primarily wants to sell me 120-135 l boards. And to much surprise, with race foot straps far out on the rails. It is so counterintuitive. I would have expected large boards and straps much more inside to be friendly for standard weekend foilers. Why is this? (However, Slingy got it all figured out it seems to me.)

Generally you dont need the volume, but it does increase weight, and makes the board feel less direct due to the thicker rails. If you have 2 boards of the same dimensions but one is 50L smaller it feels way smaller and more direct, also in the air. Also, most brands make faster / more powerful (read powerful, not lifty!) foils than slingshot does, and then a wider strap spacing is nice to be able to maximise upwind etc. Slingshot wings dont have much in terms of upwind potential anyway, so why bother trying to compensate instead of accentuating its good points.

To be honest, I think for most riders Slingshot kit is not the optimal choice, a smaller, higher aspect wing extended further forward from the mast is generally more stable (I did not experience the I76 as being exceptionally stable, even would classify it at the more skatey / loose side of the scale) both longitudinally and laterally, has more power to go upwind and keep going in lulls, can go faster, with only a really marginally higher stall speed and doesnt need more sail area to fly (if we are talking around 1150-1300cm2 area).

EDIT: big boards with more cenetered straps dont really work in my experience, I tried heaps of prototypes, and the frontstraps about 15cm from the rail seems optimal for freeride foiling, pretty much independent of board width. Wider board get more sluggish, also with centered footstrap positions.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

Delta99 said..
Hi, RE size of the board, it really puzzles me why the pros ride 177-190 l type of boards, while for eg JP and Naish primarily wants to sell me 120-135 l boards. And to much surprise, with race foot straps far out on the rails. It is so counterintuitive. I would have expected large boards and straps much more inside to be friendly for standard weekend foilers. Why is this? (However, Slingy got it all figured out it seems to me.)

Generally you dont need the volume, but it does increase weight, and makes the board feel less direct due to the thicker rails. If you have 2 boards of the same dimensions but one is 50L smaller it feels way smaller and more direct, also in the air. Also, most brands make faster / more powerful (read powerful, not lifty!) foils than slingshot does, and then a wider strap spacing is nice to be able to maximise upwind etc. Slingshot wings dont have much in terms of upwind potential anyway, so why bother trying to compensate instead of accentuating its good points.

To be honest, I think for most riders Slingshot kit is not the optimal choice, a smaller, higher aspect wing extended further forward from the mast is generally more stable (I did not experience the I76 as being exceptionally stable, even would classify it at the more skatey / loose side of the scale) both longitudinally and laterally, has more power to go upwind and keep going in lulls, can go faster, with only a really marginally higher stall speed and doesnt need more sail area to fly (if we are talking around 1150-1300cm2 area).

EDIT: big boards with more cenetered straps dont really work in my experience, I tried heaps of prototypes, and the frontstraps about 15cm from the rail seems optimal for freeride foiling, pretty much independent of board width. Wider board get more sluggish, also with centered footstrap positions.

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..
Had a few runs on this 1.4m bad boy a few days ago.
Makes the Freestyle 87L feel like a supertanker

Swing weight is real - noticeable when you don't have any, heaps looser.


Not as handsome as Darryl's board, I'll grant you

How much wind do you need to get the bad boy going? that's crazy

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..
How much wind do you need to get the bad boy going? that's crazy

About 20 knots with a 3.7m - waterstarting is not too hard if the wind is steady.
I only tried with the Infinity 76 wing (to get quick lift).
I suspect it could be a lot harder to get going with the Infinity 65 wing - which for me kind of defeats the purpose.
Early days

Comparing the Wizard 105, Freestyle 87 and Toad 65 (?) - holding by the straps and moving them up and down, swing weight differences are very noticeable.
Is low swing weight important - not sure.
It's cool to feel loose up on the foil but the Infinity 65 wing is already nice and loose - even with the W105.

Swing weight probably has an advantage in big conditions of steadying the foil.
Yesterday we had 25-30 knots (with some brutal short gusts of over 35 I think) and 1m+ windswells - relieved I didn't attempt it on the Toad !!
Jesper, Simon and I did some superfun carving downwinders - with Wizards 125, 105 and Freestyle 87 - they all work


My lesson from yesterday was when it's crazy windy and gusty is to swap up from the F87 to W105 and swap down sails from 3.7 to 3.4.



The Toad was a nice Isonic 121
The cut rails are glassed only.

There might be a limit to how small you can go - waterstarting and lack of being able to slog home are the obvious issues.
I'll be stoked to see what people come up with.

Tony Logosz (Slingshot Chief) has done a lot of experimenting with awesome tiny boards.
www.instagram.com/logosz/?hl=en

Select to expand quote

azymuth said..
Had a few runs on this 1.4m bad boy a few days ago.
Makes the Freestyle 87L feel like a supertanker

Swing weight is real - noticeable when you don't have any, heaps looser.


Not as handsome as Darryl's board, I'll grant you

Looks nicer since you tidied it up JJ
The mast tracks are way different, surely you notice that?
I knew you clowns would be out yesterday, perfect foiling weather

Select to expand quote

DarrylG said..
So how small is too small ???
Here is a 170 x 66 approx 87 litres :)))
Been waiting for some wind to get rider feedback

Noice, yesterday was the day Daz, pity you missed it

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Delta99 said..
Hi, RE size of the board, it really puzzles me why the pros ride 177-190 l type of boards, while for eg JP and Naish primarily wants to sell me 120-135 l boards. And to much surprise, with race foot straps far out on the rails. It is so counterintuitive. I would have expected large boards and straps much more inside to be friendly for standard weekend foilers. Why is this? (However, Slingy got it all figured out it seems to me.)

Generally you dont need the volume, but it does increase weight, and makes the board feel less direct due to the thicker rails. If you have 2 boards of the same dimensions but one is 50L smaller it feels way smaller and more direct, also in the air. Also, most brands make faster / more powerful (read powerful, not lifty!) foils than slingshot does, and then a wider strap spacing is nice to be able to maximise upwind etc. Slingshot wings dont have much in terms of upwind potential anyway, so why bother trying to compensate instead of accentuating its good points.

To be honest, I think for most riders Slingshot kit is not the optimal choice, a smaller, higher aspect wing extended further forward from the mast is generally more stable (I did not experience the I76 as being exceptionally stable, even would classify it at the more skatey / loose side of the scale) both longitudinally and laterally, has more power to go upwind and keep going in lulls, can go faster, with only a really marginally higher stall speed and doesnt need more sail area to fly (if we are talking around 1150-1300cm2 area).

EDIT: big boards with more cenetered straps dont really work in my experience, I tried heaps of prototypes, and the frontstraps about 15cm from the rail seems optimal for freeride foiling, pretty much independent of board width. Wider board get more sluggish, also with centered footstrap positions.

Nice one , just so you know, I have nothing against Slingshot and would recommend it in specific cases (heavy weights, people who cant pump and aren't gonna practice, people who will use their foil max 10 times a year, people who are out at sea most of the time, people wanting to mix up supping/surfing/winging and windfoiling, and people who for their practice want to be able to stay on low powered / slow waves, maybe riders who want to do downwind360 and that kind of old school freestyle on the foil). Its just the style and feel of the Slingshot products and others who have similar design trends (like the SB Supercruiser for example) are pretty much perpendicular to what I look for in a foil, and I think most freeriders, especially on lake spots or in gusty areas, would be better off with something else.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

CoreAS said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Delta99 said..
Hi, RE size of the board, it really puzzles me why the pros ride 177-190 l type of boards, while for eg JP and Naish primarily wants to sell me 120-135 l boards. And to much surprise, with race foot straps far out on the rails. It is so counterintuitive. I would have expected large boards and straps much more inside to be friendly for standard weekend foilers. Why is this? (However, Slingy got it all figured out it seems to me.)

Generally you dont need the volume, but it does increase weight, and makes the board feel less direct due to the thicker rails. If you have 2 boards of the same dimensions but one is 50L smaller it feels way smaller and more direct, also in the air. Also, most brands make faster / more powerful (read powerful, not lifty!) foils than slingshot does, and then a wider strap spacing is nice to be able to maximise upwind etc. Slingshot wings dont have much in terms of upwind potential anyway, so why bother trying to compensate instead of accentuating its good points.

To be honest, I think for most riders Slingshot kit is not the optimal choice, a smaller, higher aspect wing extended further forward from the mast is generally more stable (I did not experience the I76 as being exceptionally stable, even would classify it at the more skatey / loose side of the scale) both longitudinally and laterally, has more power to go upwind and keep going in lulls, can go faster, with only a really marginally higher stall speed and doesnt need more sail area to fly (if we are talking around 1150-1300cm2 area).

EDIT: big boards with more cenetered straps dont really work in my experience, I tried heaps of prototypes, and the frontstraps about 15cm from the rail seems optimal for freeride foiling, pretty much independent of board width. Wider board get more sluggish, also with centered footstrap positions.

Nice one , just so you know, I have nothing against Slingshot and would recommend it in specific cases (heavy weights, people who cant pump and aren't gonna practice, people who will use their foil max 10 times a year, people who are out at sea most of the time, people wanting to mix up supping/surfing/winging and windfoiling, and people who for their practice want to be able to stay on low powered / slow waves, maybe riders who want to do downwind360 and that kind of old school freestyle on the foil). Its just the style and feel of the Slingshot products and others who have similar design trends (like the SB Supercruiser for example) are pretty much perpendicular to what I look for in a foil, and I think most freeriders, especially on lake spots or in gusty areas, would be better off with something else.

Thank you, WhiteofHeart, for keeping it cool and taking that meme as a joke so we can move forward with the topic (actually side-topic because the real one is about compact boards).
BTW, I have been foiling exclusively for the last year and a half with an infinity 84 (I miss finning but I think the lake I sail on is better suited for foiling). Nothing wrong with my foil but I always wonder if a high aspect ratio foil would be better suited for mowing the lawn in very light wind. Other foilers that sail with me (way better foilers than me) have starboard 1000 wings and are also happy with their low wind take-off and they have higher top speed than me.

2/3rd sized high aspect thin foils take off around the same windspeed, but need good pumping and possibly lighter, earlier planing floatier boards. And possibly more locked in slightly bigger sails.

A friend did a kite foil race board to windfoil conversion:
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/message/65722