G'day, Just interested to hear from anybody who has switched to (or tried) using foil specific sails and whether they consider them much of an improvement. There seems to be very little in the way of independent reviews available online for a lot of these sails and I'm reluctant to take the leap based on the manufacturer's blurb. Cheers!

What sail sizes are you interested in? Foil specific really starts to make sense in the sizes 6ish and up for reduced weight, shorter boom lengths and higher aspect. The first two are (generally) more important for the avg user.

Sources of reviews and user feedback
use Google Chrome or open source Chromium and peruse these sites in French if you need the translation:
marseille.glissattitude.com/blog.html
www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42

G'day Paducah, Yes I normally use my slalom sails 7.0 and above. I have a race foil and board and enjoy the performance it brings but am not really interested in racing (at this stage anyway). Most of the freeride foil sails seem to stop at around 7m and then the race orientated foil sails take over after that. Many thanks for the links!

I have SB 177 and Race foil for light wind fun, replacing Formula gear - not into formal racing, just love being out on lighter days & getting a body-brain workout - I find Severne HyperGlide 9.0 (version 1) way nicer than 3-4 cam slalom sails in marginal winds, it's lighter and pumps up onto foil WAY better due to design - in short, foil specific sail allows you to use a smaller size because they are designed to generate power sooner - whereas slalom sails need loads of wind to work - so I can go HG9.0 instead of Reflex 10.0 - but if you usually foil well powered up, maybe no point getting foil specific sails ....

Select to expand quote

Boston! said..
G'day Paducah, Yes I normally use my slalom sails 7.0 and above. I have a race foil and board and enjoy the performance it brings but am not really interested in racing (at this stage anyway). Most of the freeride foil sails seem to stop at around 7m and then the race orientated foil sails take over after that. Many thanks for the links!

These may be an option larger than 7.0 as a 'freeride' foil sail option ??

www.loftsails.com/windsurf-gear/sails/skyscape

Remi I remember you tried the foil sail maybe could post a short review comparing to the race sails you were also foiling with

I use 2018 Sailworks Flyer 7.0 and quite happy with the result combined with the Streamline boom. 7.0 Flyer has 2 cam goes on to 430 rdm mast but 2019. It is one of the lightest sails you could find for foiling. I also bought 6.0 Flyer but did not use it yet. I think they now have 8.2 Flyer that goes on to 460 mast but I rather use smaller and lighter gear. If you are not racing, you don't need the big sails for recreational purpose. Apparently, other regular sails are also fine when you put minimal downhaul but for me the weight was critical and I am happy with my selection.

I have the 4-batten Flyer 7.0. For 2019 they changed it to 5-batten to better handle a wider wind range. 2-cam on a 430 rdm.

Sailworks is also making the 8.2 Flyer, which is 5-batten, 2-cam, that rigs on a 460 sdm mast.

For 2020 they will have some new Flyers with somewhat higher aspect ratios. I don't know about sizes yet, but Bruce P was testing a prototype 8.5 a lot this past summer.

The 7.0 is my only Flyer. I would get a couple more, but my old Sailworks XT 6.4, 7.4, and 8.5 just keep on truckin'. They work great for foiling, are easy to rig, are quite lightweight as 1999-vintage 3-cam race sails, and just don't wear out. LOL When the wind is strong my old Revo 5.0 and Hucker 5.6 work just fine.

Have Hydra 5.5.
Maybe 20% better for foiling over my Ezzy Wave and Windwing Bash 5.6, Spectro, Rave 5.7, but tinterchange to WS when wind goes over 20 is a very important aspect in our changing winds.
Often go from Naish 122 directly to a 85 liter bump board.

For racing totally go for the upgrade. Foil racing sails are better both low and high windrange. For freeriding under 6.5 just take what you have already.

The only freeride foilsail I would buy is one around 7-8m in size as your biggest sail for fun. Below I like wavesails more because they are compact (you can actually duck them as opposed to the only no cam which is the ezzy) and dont have the cambers (like seriously, nobody needs cams for freeriding with a 5.5, except maybe kids or very light people who have it as their largest size....). The gap between a 4.7 wavesail and 8m freeride foilsail is fine, and with a 5.7 or so you might even often find yourself indecisive about which sail to choose. for everyone weighing an average 80-95kg you should in theory not need over 8m.

If you do need more than 8.0 for some reason you'd also need a PWA or formula foil board. If you take that step then why not match it with the right foil and sail..

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..
For racing totally go for the upgrade. Foil racing sails are better both low and high windrange. For freeriding under 6.5 just take what you have already.

The only freeride foilsail I would buy is one around 7-8m in size as your biggest sail for fun. Below I like wavesails more because they are compact (you can actually duck them as opposed to the only no cam which is the ezzy) and dont have the cambers (like seriously, nobody needs cams for freeriding with a 5.5, except maybe kids or very light people who have it as their largest size....). The gap between a 4.7 wavesail and 8m freeride foilsail is fine, and with a 5.7 or so you might even often find yourself indecisive about which sail to choose. for everyone weighing an average 80-95kg you should in theory not need over 8m.

If you do need more than 8.0 for some reason you'd also need a PWA or formula foil board. If you take that step then why not match it with the right foil and sail..

If the budget allows this year, I'd like to spring for a race-ish sail as it fits the type of foiling I like to do at low wind speeds. Given your comment about the range of a foil sail - let's say the biggest sail I usually use now is an 8ish freerace 2 cam. What's the equivalent in the race world? Do I go 8, 8.5? I'm on the lighter end of weight so I don't need a lot of power to get me off the water.

btw, Happy Holidays to everyone here.

Thanks for everyone's input. The 7.7 is my most used sail but the weight and average rotation of a slalom sail doesn't help, particularly when getting flying and through gybes. The race sails look good but also seem very fragile due to their lightweight design. (mostly monofilm) Something like the Skyscape might suit me as it retains some of the performance of a race sail but is a bit more user-friendly. The Sailworks sails also look very good and are bulletproof.

I used the NP Flight Evo 7 metre and that was very nice sail. It was much more consistent and helped stability on the foil.
I was able to get going only a few knots after guys on 9m Hyperglides and the sail was very quick when powered up. I'm hoping to get an 8 metre version soon.

Select to expand quote

powersloshin said..
Remi I remember you tried the foil sail maybe could post a short review comparing to the race sails you were also foiling with

Didnt want to hijack this post but in short the Skyscape has a combination of super light weight and efficiency pumpin that makes it ideal for light wind cruising. It sets super easy on the deck with the low foot design. With only 2 cambers and 5 battens it is super efficent pumping. Rotates like a camless sail.

I cannot comment much in the stronger wind as I only foil in light conditions at this stage.

Hi.

It depends n what kind of foiling you want to do.
Race, free ride etc,

Ive got wave sails from 5.7 down to 3.5 but I also have a 5.7 Lift foil specific. The lift will get me going in 9-10 knots of wind but be very slow once up and the 5.7m will be faster once up but needs 12-14 knots to get me up.

The lift gets me up and I don't care that i am slow because i am foiling and it feels amazing. It is a dedicated light wind foil sail and it works.

All my other sails work if the wind strength is right and I am used to them.

Select to expand quote

Boston! said..
Thanks for everyone's input. The 7.7 is my most used sail but the weight and average rotation of a slalom sail doesn't help, particularly when getting flying and through gybes. The race sails look good but also seem very fragile due to their lightweight design. (mostly monofilm) Something like the Skyscape might suit me as it retains some of the performance of a race sail but is a bit more user-friendly. The Sailworks sails also look very good and are bulletproof.

The skyscape and similar 4-5 batten 2-3cam sails are designed for maximum lowend and get heavy at speed + overpower faster. For racing you'd be better off with a regular slalomsail than a foil freeride sail.

Especially the heaviness when you go faster really puts me off. They really have some sort of topspeed to them which just blocks you from going faster after a certain point and makes the sail heavy and less fun.

@Paducah, I think a 9.0 is the best average size for mostly anyone. Generally for most brands: The 8.0's are made for the higher windranges, they have very stiff / locked profiles, less suitable for pumping but very stable. The 10.0's are the softest. They deform fastest and are easiest to pump, therrfore they have most light wind power but overpower faster. The 9.0's are generally right in the middle and the most comfortable over a wide range.

If you're between 70 and 95kg's the 9.0 is the size for you, outside theose weight ranges I'm not really sure, the PWA women also use 9.0 a lot and there's some pretty light weight people in there so that might show something. The real heavies might be better of with a 10.0 for the early flight, but that really makes the usable range more narrow. What generally makes it hard is that the sailsizes are mostly designed to be used in a certain windrange, and not by a certain riderweight if you get what I mean.

WhiteofHeart, perfect. Exactly what I was looking for. At 70ish kg (that may have changed with all that I've eaten the last week), I find your comments on 8 vs 9 helpful. Low end is important because that's my main interest for half the year. Only hitch is that a 9 will probably require a new mast.

Boston! I'm coming from about the same size except mine is a "freerace" 2 cam so probably not as twisty and pops pretty easily but still a lot to swing around in the air. I appreciate your starting the topic.

I have several reviews of the Hydra in this forum. Great sail to learn to foil on. I have 3 Hydras, including one of them being the sport and two pro's. I prefer the sport, very light, easy to pump, helps with gusts, etc. Good sail, get one.

I had my first go of my new Severne Foil Glide 7.0 yesterday I really liked it. I think I had it rigged a bit too full as it felt a little bit slow but that could have been the wind strength as well. It felt light as a feather and had great low end grunt and had a very nice shape once it was fully inflated. Upper wind range felt good considering the 2 cams and 4 battens. All in all I can't fault it at all. It's not suitable for racing or possibly even gps or free racing but for light wind cruising the Foil Glide is magic.

thanks for the feedback on the glide ! in what wind max would you use the the seven ?
I'm waiting for my 5 & 7 glides to arrive

My 4 cam 8 batten 8.0 Hyperglide is magic for early planning but when the wind picked up is was a nightmare.

I used it on my 135 Slalom board for non foiling.

4.8 kg after I had the clew reduced by 20cm to 200cm to fit my smaller fibre spar boom that only weighs 2.5 kg including harness lines.

They do feel so much lighter than a race sail.

I would start to plane in around 12 knots with my 7.0 R8 and be powered up in 14 knots.

With the 8m Hyperglide I was planing in only 10 knots and I was fairly powered up in 12 knots. 14 knots I was fully powered to being on the edge. 16 knots I did not enjoy it and 18 knots I just returned to shore.

I preferred using my 7.0m R8 overall as it had a smaller feel and better rotation but in the 10 - 14 knot wind range the 8m Hyperglide would leave the 7m for dead in the lulls.

Select to expand quote

seanhogan said..
thanks for the feedback on the glide ! in what wind max would you use the the seven ?
I'm waiting for my 5 & 7 glides to arrive

I'm not really sure about the wind range yet as I've only used the 7.0 once but I had some gusts that were 12 to 14 knots I guess and the draft position didn't move noticeably. I think the strength of the Foil Glide is it's low end performance and I would take the smallest size you can get away with rather than the biggest. Once you are up on the foil the thing just doesn't come down except in the most significant lulls.

The handling of the Foil Glide was really nice too. Mast foot pressure was very neutral and the board felt nicely balanced. Rotation requires minimal effort. My only regret is perhaps not getting the 6.0 but I have 6.7 and 6.2 blades for stronger winds. I'm fairly sure the top end speed issue I mentioned was due to not enough downhaul. I'll try it with 2cm more downhaul and outhaul next time. I rigged the 7.0 on a 460 gorilla RDM I think this is the mast to use. I think using an SDM mast is going to make the sail feel stiffer and heavier regardless of actual weight.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..
What sail sizes are you interested in? Foil specific really starts to make sense in the sizes 6ish and up for reduced weight, shorter boom lengths and higher aspect.

Took the slapper out recently. You really have to muscle the sail to keep it moving. Hence the compromise between high aspect for best lift to drag and low aspect to reduce the leverage for the power needed. So it makes sense that foils, which will keep going with less drive, can best generate that with a higher aspect ratio. How high can it go? Have the sail manufacturers fully explored this yet? Wish I still had the old NP 3.7 that rigged on a 460 mast to try out? But that being said the Moth sailors, who are on top of everything, are not using the max mast length allowed by the rules.

Ever duck those tall sails?
Or clear for waterstarts?
That jump from 4.7 to 5.4 was beyond huge.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Ever duck those tall sails?
Or clear for waterstarts?
That jump from 4.7 to 5.4 was beyond huge.

I ducked my 9.0 Iris RF, and it has a 556 luff haha. (Not while foiling ofc. That takes a little more practice with these sizes and those low sailfoots hahahaha) Never had an issue waterstarting any sail in my life. Equipment is rarely the limiting factor in the case of either duckjibes or waterstarts.

If you're wondering, an athletic person in the average weightrange of 85kg's should be able to get going with a 7.0 in 8 knots, if you match the right board and foil. Thats both for a regular freeride sail (if you pick the right one like a severne unit 1 cam for example) and a foil freeride sail. The foilsail will just feel more poweredup, allowing you to actually have a better balance with the foil. In light winds I often find the foil overpowers the sail, for me this feels like I cant put my backfoot in the strap and stretch both legs (keeping the weight forward and over the foil through preassure on the mastfoot, and not by bending the frontleg as that is less efficient), often resulting in me standing with my backfoot just in front of the strap in light winds, only being able to maximally use the foils power and get into the backstrap when I'm also more poweredup in the sail. A foilspecific sail powerful feeling makes it easier to sail with a more efficient stance and both feet in the strap in the low range, giving you better performance.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..
In light winds I often find the foil overpowers the sail, for me this feels like I cant put my backfoot in the strap and stretch both legs (keeping the weight forward and over the foil through preassure on the mastfoot, and not by bending the frontleg as that is less efficient), often resulting in me standing with my backfoot just in front of the strap in light winds, only being able to maximally use the foils power and get into the backstrap when I'm also more poweredup in the sail. A foilspecific sail powerful feeling makes it easier to sail with a more efficient stance and both feet in the strap in the low range, giving you better performance.

Wow, hang on. This is me (back foot in front of the straps) using a 2 cam freerace sail. Please explain a bit more if you could. We also spend a lot of time at the lower wind ranges because of where we live.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

WhiteofHeart said..
In light winds I often find the foil overpowers the sail, for me this feels like I cant put my backfoot in the strap and stretch both legs (keeping the weight forward and over the foil through preassure on the mastfoot, and not by bending the frontleg as that is less efficient), often resulting in me standing with my backfoot just in front of the strap in light winds, only being able to maximally use the foils power and get into the backstrap when I'm also more poweredup in the sail. A foilspecific sail powerful feeling makes it easier to sail with a more efficient stance and both feet in the strap in the low range, giving you better performance.

Wow, hang on. This is me (back foot in front of the straps) using a 2 cam freerace sail. Please explain a bit more if you could. We also spend a lot of time at the lower wind ranges because of where we live.

Hahahah, I dont know how much more there is to explain, but basically if you're on a bit racier kit (or fast freeride), you might have a certain trim which works really well a little powered up. The problem I tend to run into is that in the really low ranges my foil is powered up (you know, im flying and all), but there isnt enough power in the sail to really hang my weight into it and thereby transfer weight to the mastfoot. My foil is setup for serious front foot preassure, but ofcourse that needs compensating if I want to fly in a straight line. Moving the power back wouldn't be an option because that would kill the power upwind and early planing.... If I have enough preassure to weight the mastfoot I can comfortably stand in both straps and straighten myself to maximise power, but before that point I put my feet closer together, basically because I have to keep my weight on top of the power somehow... I've found foilspecific sails help with this because they feel powered up earlier, making them easier to sail more efficiently (and comfortably) in the low range!

I haven't really found a solution in trim yet myself, been trying to put my mastfoot further forward in low winds but that kills early flight, might just move the straps forward in low wind... I've noticed kiran rides his straps further forward, but he's 20cm lighter than me so I dont know how significant that really is... not sure, still figuring all of that out myself hahaha. I have quite a lot of sessions during the season riding with 5-6 other racers, lining up and doing up/ downwind legs, very useful, but if it is 5-6 knots noone is coming, and it would be a little hard to do those kind of trainings because half the time only half the people get the gust to fly and all... Thats why for me the really lightwind (5-8kts) technique for going fast and upwind kind of stays behind to the jibes and the higher windranges.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

Paducah said..

WhiteofHeart said..
In light winds I often find the foil overpowers the sail, for me this feels like I cant put my backfoot in the strap and stretch both legs (keeping the weight forward and over the foil through preassure on the mastfoot, and not by bending the frontleg as that is less efficient), often resulting in me standing with my backfoot just in front of the strap in light winds, only being able to maximally use the foils power and get into the backstrap when I'm also more poweredup in the sail. A foilspecific sail powerful feeling makes it easier to sail with a more efficient stance and both feet in the strap in the low range, giving you better performance.

Wow, hang on. This is me (back foot in front of the straps) using a 2 cam freerace sail. Please explain a bit more if you could. We also spend a lot of time at the lower wind ranges because of where we live.

Hahahah, I dont know how much more there is to explain, but basically if you're on a bit racier kit (or fast freeride), you might have a certain trim which works really well a little powered up. The problem I tend to run into is that in the really low ranges my foil is powered up (you know, im flying and all), but there isnt enough power in the sail to really hang my weight into it and thereby transfer weight to the mastfoot. My foil is setup for serious front foot preassure, but ofcourse that needs compensating if I want to fly in a straight line. Moving the power back wouldn't be an option because that would kill the power upwind and early planing.... If I have enough preassure to weight the mastfoot I can comfortably stand in both straps and straighten myself to maximise power, but before that point I put my feet closer together, basically because I have to keep my weight on top of the power somehow... I've found foilspecific sails help with this because they feel powered up earlier, making them easier to sail more efficiently (and comfortably) in the low range!

I haven't really found a solution in trim yet myself, been trying to put my mastfoot further forward in low winds but that kills early flight, might just move the straps forward in low wind... I've noticed kiran rides his straps further forward, but he's 20cm lighter than me so I dont know how significant that really is... not sure, still figuring all of that out myself hahaha. I have quite a lot of sessions during the season riding with 5-6 other racers, lining up and doing up/ downwind legs, very useful, but if it is 5-6 knots noone is coming, and it would be a little hard to do those kind of trainings because half the time only half the people get the gust to fly and all... Thats why for me the really lightwind (5-8kts) technique for going fast and upwind kind of stays behind to the jibes and the higher windranges.

Thanks! Lots in there for me to think about. I appreciate the info. Riding like this is more technical but it works so well where I live - allows me to make those 8-15 days so much more fun and challenging.