Next in the series of technique posts.

Downwind speed takes more bravery I think...

Tips for downwind speed:
1. Deep sail, let off your outhaul
2. Long lines, extend your harness lines
3. Upright stance, more wind on your sail
4. Twist, while hooked in, angle your body where you want to go
5. Front foot in
6. Back foot out - and a bit forward
7. Weight through the harness lines
8. Angle offwind to control height... fast angle of the foil to control lift, and reset quickly too.
9. Too deep is slow, it can be quicker to sail a bit broader (less deep), faster, and chuck in 2 perfect air gybes!
10. Small foils are faster (but can't get upwind as well).
11. Fly High to reduce foil-mast drag

Controlling ride height is critical for me. Especially on Moreton Bay where we get quite steep chop when it's wind against tide. I find myself shifting my centre of weight constantly (by moving my back foot) while I go over the peaks and into the troughs. Concentration is a must.

I personally have trouble getting the angle downwind. Haven't quite figured out why we average sailors are all roughly equally good (mainly separated by jibing ability), whereas the really good guys just get both deeper angles and go faster. I fly 98-100% of my jibes each session, but Kiran just plain hammers me downwind, even if I'm pumping the entire stretch and he isnt and I try to ride similar lines..

I think sailing fast downwind takes quite a good 'feel' for your rig and knowledge of apparent wind sailing. Downwind the apparent wind is much broader, one of the reasons why we run deeper sail settings, it's also much easier for the flow to detach from the rig, hence the good 'feel' required. The window for optimum VMG is very small and it varies a lot over the range of conditions, it also takes a lot of effort to keep it in the window. The other thing with downwind apparent wind sailing is it's often required to sail higher (for a period) to increase your speed, hence build apparent wind, hence sail lower and faster, it's somewhat counter intuitive. It's a massive continuous feedback loop and it takes a fair bit of effort to 'keep it in the window' but you can make absolutely massive gains if you're good at it, far bigger than upwind imo.

Quite a hard thing to 'teach' I reckon and even explain. Berowne's list is fairly accurate but you can do all of those things and still be slow downwind.

I'd also add that on the foil you're more looking for pressure (IE more wind) rather than a wind shift per say. You can gain far more by staying in good pressure than sailing every shift, particularly downwind as you can ride that pressure all the way down as your VMG > wind speed in certain conditions.

CJW thanks for the tips... I'll definitely try hunting around for that apparent wind next run downwind...

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CJW said..
I think sailing fast downwind takes quite a good 'feel' for your rig and knowledge of apparent wind sailing. Downwind the apparent wind is much broader, one of the reasons why we run deeper sail settings, it's also much easier for the flow to detach from the rig, hence the good 'feel' required. The window for optimum VMG is very small and it varies a lot over the range of conditions, it also takes a lot of effort to keep it in the window. The other thing with downwind apparent wind sailing is it's often required to sail higher (for a period) to increase your speed, hence build apparent wind, hence sail lower and faster, it's somewhat counter intuitive. It's a massive continuous feedback loop and it takes a fair bit of effort to 'keep it in the window' but you can make absolutely massive gains if you're good at it, far bigger than upwind imo.

Quite a hard thing to 'teach' I reckon and even explain. Berowne's list is fairly accurate but you can do all of those things and still be slow downwind.

I'd also add that on the foil you're more looking for pressure (IE more wind) rather than a wind shift per say. You can gain far more by staying in good pressure than sailing every shift, particularly downwind as you can ride that pressure all the way down as your VMG > wind speed in certain conditions.

I already thought I might be going deep too soon. Its just it feels like you're giving up spots if you dont :p. What speeds do you guys get on average on the downwind downwind when aiming for vmg? I'm around 42-45kph or 23-25 knots when powered up, 38-42kph or 21-23knots when underpowered / below 10-12 knots.

Yeah the real key is to keep the average speed high, which is hard. I basically never adjust my sheeting angle once I've headed off the wind, I just steer to the required angle, constantly; these are not big angle changes unless there is a gust/lull. Those speeds are fairly on the money although i'd say a bit high for long time averages. Over 15kts or so my average is pretty consistently 23-23.5kts, that's averaged over say 5 mintues, peak maybe 25 in a gust. In 8-12kts probably 21kts long term average but in 6-8kts it would be under 20 for sure and the VMG is pretty bad under 8kts, just in general.

Setup:
- 9.0(6-16kts), 8.0(14-25kts) HG2's
- 900 front wing 6-20kts, 800 wing > 20 kts. To be honest the 900 wing is basically the go to even with the 8.0 as it is barely any different in speed and faster through tacks particularly, even on the 8.0. Over 20kts the 900 does become a bit of a handful though.
- 115plus fuse (although mine is custom so probably a 115plus1.5 as the front wing is 70mm forward compared the standard 115 fuse, I think the 115plus is 60mm forward? I also think the 115 standard fuse is bit faster downwind as you can send it harder, plus fuse is very powerful and I find it hard to keep it in the water at times downwind, I am light though at 70kg
- 255 rear wing (standard not -2.0deg), with 9.0HG2 -1.5 deg shim in 6-12kts, -2.0deg shim 10-16kts. With 8.0 -2.0 deg as usually > 15kts.

I just takes a lot of concentration/feel to keep that average speed high, it's very easy to relax for a bit and you've lost 50m and 5 degrees in height. Now I haven't sailed against Kiran so can't really compare.

I've learned a lot in this thread and I'm truly grateful to all that have posted. The biggest thing I've learned is how *ing slow I am.

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CJW said..
Yeah the real key is to keep the average speed high, which is hard. I basically never adjust my sheeting angle once I've headed off the wind, I just steer to the required angle, constantly; these are not big angle changes unless there is a gust/lull. Those speeds are fairly on the money although i'd say a bit high for long time averages. Over 15kts or so my average is pretty consistently 23-23.5kts, that's averaged over say 5 mintues, peak maybe 25 in a gust. In 8-12kts probably 21kts long term average but in 6-8kts it would be under 20 for sure and the VMG is pretty bad under 8kts, just in general.

Setup:
- 9.0(6-16kts), 8.0(14-25kts) HG2's
- 900 front wing 6-20kts, 800 wing > 20 kts. To be honest the 900 wing is basically the go to even with the 8.0 as it is barely any different in speed and faster through tacks particularly, even on the 8.0. Over 20kts the 900 does become a bit of a handful though.
- 115plus fuse (although mine is custom so probably a 115plus1.5 as the front wing is 70mm forward compared the standard 115 fuse, I think the 115plus is 60mm forward? I also think the 115 standard fuse is bit faster downwind as you can send it harder, plus fuse is very powerful and I find it hard to keep it in the water at times downwind, I am light though at 70kg
- 255 rear wing (standard not -2.0deg), with 9.0HG2 -1.5 deg shim in 6-12kts, -2.0deg shim 10-16kts. With 8.0 -2.0 deg as usually > 15kts.

I just takes a lot of concentration/feel to keep that average speed high, it's very easy to relax for a bit and you've lost 50m and 5 degrees in height. Now I haven't sailed against Kiran so can't really compare.

Oh yeah, I suppose 8-12knots I do 21-23 knots speed downwind, below 8 knots its definately less, more like 18-21! I think speedwise we're pretty even. Thats basically what I meant, most people I sail with are around our mark, and then there's some who are just plain faster downwind with better angle. (Maybe you do get a better angle than me, wouldnt know.) I do sail 1 size up compared to you, 10.0 in 5-15 knots, 9.0 in 12-25 (since I got my 10, before that I did 9.0 from 6 knots up). I guess our difference in weight explains that cuz I'm almost 20Kg heavier than you!

Some more tips at the end of this post thread too...
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Wing-Fundamentals-?page=1

I think it was alluded to elsewhere but are people with adjustable harness lines changing them when rounding the marks e.g. letting them out after rounding the top mark? Wandering how much I'm hindering myself even for just riding around (which can consist of long upwind or downwind legs) by having fixed lines.

Yep adjustable, shorter upwind, longer downwind, you also want them shorter when it's lighter as you are more upright. 100% required if you're serious about racing in my opinion.

I personally ride 1 size for the day, but I usually end up pumping most of the downwind, so not using the harnesslines.

Lengthening the harnesslines when going downwind will, like letting off outhaul, shift the balance of the sail towards a little more backhand preassure (I think might be other way round but personally dont use it, too much of a hassle for those 3 minutes of downwind) which can be reassuring.

Thanks for the input gentleman. I only race occasionally, but your suggestions here and before have helped me immensely feel more comfortable on my gear and get more out of recreational sessions. As always, I am grateful.

Thanks for all the tips, really interesting.

I struggle with my stance a bit downwind, I find I have my shoulders twisted slightly towards the front but my arms are back to hold the rig in the right place which is quite uncomfortable on the lower back. This is with one foot in the straps, in or out of the harness. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

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HangOver said..
Thanks for all the tips, really interesting.

I struggle with my stance a bit downwind, I find I have my shoulders twisted slightly towards the front but my arms are back to hold the rig in the right place which is quite uncomfortable on the lower back. This is with one foot in the straps, in or out of the harness. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

i used to end up in this same position downwind.

One thing ive found helps recently (When the wind is strong enough for it) is to try keep my weight outboard. Front foot in strap, Harness loaded, back foot out, but hovering around the front of the back strap, weight off the side.

Its how you sail a skiff for VMG downwind. Having the outboard weight gives you a focal point to match angle to wind with. So when the wind backs off you are "forced" to change angle up to keep yourself out. Then when hit by a gust you change angle downwind again, as deep as it feels settled at. Of course light winds you need to be inboard.

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berowne said..
Next in the series of technique posts.

Downwind speed takes more bravery I think...

Tips for downwind speed:
1. Deep sail, let off your outhaul
2. Long lines, extend your harness lines
3. Upright stance, more wind on your sail
4. Twist, while hooked in, angle your body where you want to go
5. Front foot in
6. Back foot out - and a bit forward
7. Weight through the harness lines
8. Angle offwind to control height... fast angle of the foil to control lift, and reset quickly too.
9. Too deep is slow, it can be quicker to sail a bit broader (less deep), faster, and chuck in 2 perfect air gybes!
10. Small foils are faster (but can't get upwind as well).
11. Fly High to reduce foil-mast drag

Re no 10. Wouldn't faster mean better upwind angles? Or how do bigger wings perform upwind better than smaller faster ones?

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thedoor said..

Re no 10. Wouldn't faster mean better upwind angles? Or how do bigger wings perform upwind better than smaller faster ones?

Going hard upwind, you are going slower so you need more lift from the wing to stay flying. Same reason formula boards worked well going upwind but would be handily beaten on a reach by a smaller board. You are absolutely correct that small wings are faster - as long as they are flying. Your reasoning is why some smaller foilers feel they are just as fast or faster on the Starboard 900 as the 1000 around a race course.

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Paducah said..

thedoor said..

Re no 10. Wouldn't faster mean better upwind angles? Or how do bigger wings perform upwind better than smaller faster ones?

Going hard upwind, you are going slower so you need more lift from the wing to stay flying. Same reason formula boards worked well going upwind but would be handily beaten on a reach by a smaller board. You are absolutely correct that small wings are faster - as long as they are flying. Your reasoning is why some smaller foilers feel they are just as fast or faster on the Starboard 900 as the 1000 around a race course.

This might explain what I notice sometimes. In light wind, my mate on his infinity 99 has upwind angles/speed as good if not better than me on my infinity 76. But when I am fully powered I my upwind ability will exceed his considerably.

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Subsonic said..

HangOver said..
Thanks for all the tips, really interesting.

I struggle with my stance a bit downwind, I find I have my shoulders twisted slightly towards the front but my arms are back to hold the rig in the right place which is quite uncomfortable on the lower back. This is with one foot in the straps, in or out of the harness. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

i used to end up in this same position downwind.

One thing ive found helps recently (When the wind is strong enough for it) is to try keep my weight outboard. Front foot in strap, Harness loaded, back foot out, but hovering around the front of the back strap, weight off the side.

Its how you sail a skiff for VMG downwind. Having the outboard weight gives you a focal point to match angle to wind with. So when the wind backs off you are "forced" to change angle up to keep yourself out. Then when hit by a gust you change angle downwind again, as deep as it feels settled at. Of course light winds you need to be inboard.

Thanks for that, I'll have to try and work on moving more outboard.