Speed on a reach vs upwind/downwind. Wind. Lots of wind.



Another perspective: www.riwmag.com/defi-wind-superstars-2020-d1-epico/?lang=en

"evin Grosjean, Jordy Vonk, Bjorn Dunkerbeck and Andrea Cucchi then slipped forward in the first third of the course. But once behind the island, the downwind edge allowed the foilers not only to return but also to take the lead despite the extreme conditions. In a chaotic backlash, superstars have gone into survival mode like Pierre Mortefon "I wasn't sailing against the others, but against myself" testified. Andrea Cucchi was forced to stop for 20 minutes. "I've had the hardest day of my life in windsurfing, my heart was beating at more than 200!"

Totally entertaining, Antoine Albeau rocks.

Paducah, thanks for posting.

Thanks, Paducah. I'm not sure quite sure what it all means other than AA is a colossus! I guess the slalom gear was at a disadvantage due to the varying wind angles but it was interesting that the foils fared better when it got super hairy.

Well slalom struggles upwind compared to foil. For a circumnavigation it's a no brainer - foil all the way.

Sounds like it was rigged to favor foils and was close to course racing.

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LeeD said..
Sounds like it was rigged to favor foils and was close to course racing.

Yes, they should have moved the island over a bit to even things out....

As a foiler, you should know you are the slowest object in the water once breeze exceeds 15 mph.
And, you are slow below 5 mph breeze.
If that's your preference....soldier on.

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LeeD said..
As a foiler, you should know you are the slowest object in the water once breeze exceeds 15 mph.
And, you are slow below 5 mph breeze.
If that's your preference....soldier on.

Please explain... btw, the slowest thing in the water over 15 is being currently discussed ad nauseum in the General category. (just kidding folks... )

Does this look slow? How does one define speed on the water?

If foiling on a windsurf type board is the slowest then foiling with a wind wing must be faster? I don"t get it.

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LeeD said..
Sounds like it was rigged to favor foils and was close to course racing.

Don't be ridiculous. Foils are dominating because they happen to have twice the range of a slalom board. You are seeing PWA level slalom sailor having to bail out ... while foilers can keep going and come in with a 30' margin ... history in the making ...

there is a shift motion, no more canned race days, nothing said here will stop this,

The PWA guys have been training for a good part of the winter in tenerife preparing for the fin vs. foil full slalom racing this year. Even with pro guys on 8.6 powered in 14-18 PWA knots, they are ahead of the foils only in flat water. Once it gets choppy, foils seem to have an advantage mailing consistent speed and much less slow down in the turns. Also its early days for foil development, speeds will go up significantly this year with better control at the same time. Boards and sails have a huge effect as well.
Chris

After about 2-3 years of windfoil racing in "return to the start" formats, it is "no contest" against any type of windsurf board. That includes slalom, formula, and race boards. There have been plenty of "around the island" races like this one with the same result every time.

Slalom gear has been developed for more than 3 decades with the sole focus on being fast on a broad reach. On a reach, it can still be faster than foils. But as someone in the video said, they picked the wings they used for speed around the course, not for top speed. That meant using larger wings for the upwind parts of the course. Larger wings are slower.

Taty Frans posted his tracks from the slalom race on ka72.com. His top speed was around 33 knots, done close to shore in a flat section. His typical speed in the chop was around 28 knots. He was in third place until very close to the finish, so these are speeds that are good enough for a podium finish. Average speeds of 28 knots can easily be reached on a race foil.

Slalom-type foil racing is just starting, with just very few of them done last year at PWA events. It seems likely that foil gear that is optimized for slalom will be developed. The current foil boards are quite similar to formula boards, and the foils are optimized for high angles upwind and downwind, not unlike formula fins. Let's see what will happen to speeds when slalom-type foil races become more common.

The Gorgecup runs only slalom these days. The Sailworks team riders are getting pretty darn fast on foils. This will only get better in the coming months and years. Just like it has for decades in windsurfing.

What about recreational....non race foilers?
Slow, slow, and slower.
Look around sometime.
Sometimes, observation is somewhat informing.
All this talk about "pros do this"....what about reality?

Awesome, what do you want to know about free ride foiling? Bigger wings, more stability and just as enjoyable. 30 knots on foils certainly isn't for everyone all the time. We can say that on foils we are windsurfing many more days this winter than ever, just because the range is so much greater. 2.5m sails to 5.7 covers just about everything. Strong wind on the foils is amazing, since you have more control and a smoother ride overall.

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f4Foils said..
Awesome, what do you want to know about free ride foiling? Bigger wings, more stability and just as enjoyable. 30 knots on foils certainly isn't for everyone all the time. We can say that on foils we are windsurfing many more days this winter than ever, just because the range is so much greater. 2.5m sails to 5.7 covers just about everything. Strong wind on the foils is amazing, since you have more control and a smoother ride overall.

Hi F4
Wondering if you know what wings and fuse Antoine used in the around the island race
cheers
Tony

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LeeD said..
What about recreational....non race foilers?
Slow, slow, and slower.
Look around sometime.
Sometimes, observation is somewhat informing.
All this talk about "pros do this"....what about reality?

you really need to kick your brain in to gear before opening your mouth
people would think you were a bit less of a tosser then....maybe.

Keep promoting, and your eyes closed, on and on.

These guys aren't pros and are on free-ride foil gear. Sure doesn't look slow to me. Looks like a hell of a lot of fun!

You look at a video and think it's great.
Now go to the shore and use your eyes!
Sure, sub15 wind, foil is great.
+15 wind, foil is a slow alternative to windsurfing.

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LeeD said..
You look at a video and think it's great.
Now go to the shore and use your eyes!
Sure, sub15 wind, foil is great.
+15 wind, foil is a slow alternative to windsurfing.

You do you, LeeD. The rest of us are going fast enough for what we want to do. The swell riding guys on here couldn't give two s**ts how fast they go and the guys in Brest are breaking 30 knots in open water on aluminum Zeekos.

When you have the skills and proper gear you, too, will go fast if that's what your heart desires. Complaining about being slow on a thick free ride wing makes as much sense as going to the wave forum and complaining how slow your wave board is compared to someone's slalom gear.

If there's something about foiling that's frustrating you - and it certainly appears to be - there are some really qualified people on this forum who can help you. Guys who train with some of the top foilers in the world and guys who build their foils. That's an amazing opportunity that few sports offer. There's a ton of positive energy and generosity here. It's up to you if you want to take advantage of it.

Hi Tony,

A2 was on an 85cm wing and 100cm fuselage. This is pretty much the standard race setup and in between the NPF4 S and M wing set. chris

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Paducah said..

LeeD said..
You look at a video and think it's great.
Now go to the shore and use your eyes!
Sure, sub15 wind, foil is great.
+15 wind, foil is a slow alternative to windsurfing.

You do you, LeeD. The rest of us are going fast enough for what we want to do. The swell riding guys on here couldn't give two s**ts how fast they go and the guys in Brest are breaking 30 knots in open water on aluminum Zeekos.

When you have the skills and proper gear you, too, will go fast if that's what your heart desires. Complaining about being slow on a thick free ride wing makes as much sense as going to the wave forum and complaining how slow your wave board is compared to someone's slalom gear.

If there's something about foiling that's frustrating you - and it certainly appears to be - there are some really qualified people on this forum who can help you. Guys who train with some of the top foilers in the world and guys who build their foils. That's an amazing opportunity that few sports offer. There's a ton of positive energy and generosity here. It's up to you if you want to take advantage of it.

LoL you are more than happy to go on a windsurfer Lt thread and give your opionin of it, with out seeing one !
Suck it up princess
LOL

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f4Foils said..
Hi Tony,

A2 was on an 85cm wing and 100cm fuselage. This is pretty much the standard race setup and in between the NPF4 S and M wing set. chris

Copy thanks for that Chris

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Paducah said..

LeeD said..
You look at a video and think it's great.
Now go to the shore and use your eyes!
Sure, sub15 wind, foil is great.
+15 wind, foil is a slow alternative to windsurfing.

You do you, LeeD. The rest of us are going fast enough for what we want to do. The swell riding guys on here couldn't give two s**ts how fast they go and the guys in Brest are breaking 30 knots in open water on aluminum Zeekos.

When you have the skills and proper gear you, too, will go fast if that's what your heart desires. Complaining about being slow on a thick free ride wing makes as much sense as going to the wave forum and complaining how slow your wave board is compared to someone's slalom gear.

If there's something about foiling that's frustrating you - and it certainly appears to be - there are some really qualified people on this forum who can help you. Guys who train with some of the top foilers in the world and guys who build their foils. That's an amazing opportunity that few sports offer. There's a ton of positive energy and generosity here. It's up to you if you want to take advantage of it.

Love your work, Paducah!

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windsufering said..

Paducah said..

LeeD said..
You look at a video and think it's great.
Now go to the shore and use your eyes!
Sure, sub15 wind, foil is great.
+15 wind, foil is a slow alternative to windsurfing.

You do you, LeeD. The rest of us are going fast enough for what we want to do. The swell riding guys on here couldn't give two s**ts how fast they go and the guys in Brest are breaking 30 knots in open water on aluminum Zeekos.

When you have the skills and proper gear you, too, will go fast if that's what your heart desires. Complaining about being slow on a thick free ride wing makes as much sense as going to the wave forum and complaining how slow your wave board is compared to someone's slalom gear.

If there's something about foiling that's frustrating you - and it certainly appears to be - there are some really qualified people on this forum who can help you. Guys who train with some of the top foilers in the world and guys who build their foils. That's an amazing opportunity that few sports offer. There's a ton of positive energy and generosity here. It's up to you if you want to take advantage of it.

LoL you are more than happy to go on a windsurfer Lt thread and give your opionin of it, with out seeing one !
Suck it up princess
LOL

I have seen them [LT]. I personally arranged and put myself on the financial hook for a number of them to be available at a local event. They aren't for me but I've thought enough of them to be willing to back them with my wallet. That's what makes snarky comments like yours so tiring. Any opinions I've offered is based on how they performed locally vs alternatives and the feedback from trusted friends. They do some things well and some things not so well.

Thanks for stopping by and dropping your totally off-topic opinion that contributes nothing to the conversation. It's comments like this that inspired the "Is the LT, etc." thread. You and several others have the entire time been under the impression that the thread was about the board. Spoiler alert: It's not and never was.

But since you've dropped by, take a moment to see a glimpse of the future:

www.facebook.com/windfoilnewzealand/videos/476676886333645/

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LeeD said..
You look at a video and think it's great.
Now go to the shore and use your eyes!
Sure, sub15 wind, foil is great.
+15 wind, foil is a slow alternative to windsurfing.

This is NOT true in the Gorge, the Slingshot guys are riding fast in real life not just on video & on 1-2m smaller sails. Faster than most causual windsurfer who are not on slalom boards. Same with Sailworks crew some on Moses foils some on racier stuff

I live in Charleston South Carolina and pretty windsurf foil alone. I have been wintering and windsurf foiling in Florida (Cocoa beach / Kelly Park) for the past couple of months for the warm water and to be around other foilers and windsurfers. I have had the chance to line up against non foiling windsurfers who are in my age/weight range who are likely quite a lot better at wind surfing than I am at windsurf foiling. In other words real world mature adults on recreational kit not pros. There is still a windsurfing culture here and the skill level is high. I can match their speed in flat water on a reach when the breeze is in the teens to mid twenties some times they are quicker. On the wind and off the wind it is no contest, I smoke em they can only reach. Minimum take off wind is pretty similar with a nod to the foil when the windsurfers are lighter than me and skilled. When they are at my weight and or not great at pumping it is no contest I am foiling and they are slogging.

There is a thriving interest in Wing foiling in Cocoa, with folks like Dwight Fisher (www.supsurfmachines.com) and Laithem Kellum leading the way. What is interesting is that the top wingers are giving me a run for my money! The lift off is early (aprox 8-10 knots with 6 meter wing, big foil and agressive foil pumping) upwind angle and top speeds are matching or bettering me at times. Legit!

Just wanted to offer some more real world data to the discussion.

My data:
Windfoil skill level intermediate with 2 years of steady time on the water. A Life time of other water time.
225 pounds, 5'9" tall, mid 40's, kinda fit with beer belly
custom 180l x 6.5' x 34" board with max width at the back strap
max sail size 7.5 severn gator
Moses foil with 790 front wing

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utcminusfour said..What is interesting is that the top wingers are giving me a run for my money! The lift off is early (aprox 8-10 knots with 6 meter wing, big foil and agressive foil pumping) upwind angle and top speeds are matching or bettering me at times. Legit!
Just wanted to offer some more real world data to the discussion.
My data:
Windfoil skill level intermediate with 2 years of steady time on the water. A Life time of other water time.
225 pounds, 5'9" tall, mid 40's, kinda fit with beer belly
custom 180l x 6.5' x 34" board with max width at the back strap
max sail size 7.5 severn gator
Moses foil with 790 front wing

We smoke the good windwingers over here

Perhaps because we're able to use smaller and thinner foils (Infinity 65 wing, 841cm2), as windsurfer sails are more powerful than windwings?
My guess only, happy to hear other points of view

Interesting to see where development takes the wingers - will they soon be able to use smaller more efficient foils too?

Also posted in General

www.facebook.com/videociel/videos/192426395477089/