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saltyheaven said..

SP said..
Aren't all surfboards a hull in the end? Either a planning hull or a Displacement Hull?

Or something in the middle, bit of both depending on the moment. Agreed.

Just that the word 'Hull' when related to surfboards has come to mean a specific thing beyond the literal meaning of the word.

Surfers are terrible with terms.
Like anything over 7ft being called a mid, twin with a trailer being called twins, or anything wider then 20" with a swallow tail being called a fish.

I don't disagree that a hull means something in Surfing but is it a Displacement hull (liddle) or planning hull ( eg Simmons,, tomos evo).
Isn't a roll / convex bottom Displacement and a concave bottom a planning hull?
I. E one is for lift and one sinks (displaces) in the water? One has rolled rails one has sharp edges cause sharp edges cause release and lift?
I get they can be a mixture of bottom contours but i don't get into hulls so not an expert by any means in terminology just Interested in what is what?

agreed and bang on with the comparison/description SP, why get caught up in labels?

There's so many variables in designing and riding surf craft and plenty of overlap... I mean all displacement hulls will surf differently based on outline, rails, fins, length etc etc as will all planing hulls...

Technically this was convex across the hull so its a displacement hull but yes its not at all similar to the the Liddle and i'm sure it rides totally different

Yeah, It's all semantics.

This is my take on it all, based mostly from the better part of a working life in boats.

When a vessel moves through water it can go in displacement mode, and it can go in planing mode.
there is not a clear cut line between the two, there is a huge grey area. Indeed some boats are referred to as semi-displacement, or semi-planing.
All vessels moving slow enough are in displacement mode, many are designed such that when pushed hard enough they transition into planing mode. Some abruptly like leaping over a hump, some smoothly and gracefully without a noticeable transition, some stay quite happily in the grey area.
A great example would be a typical tinny going fishing for the day. Heading out through the moorings at idle the boat is in displacement mode, it is dis-placing water, literally moving it out of the way because the hull is settled down into the water. Hitting the gas when in clear water the boat leaps up onto the plane, it is now (mostly) above the water skipping along the top. Note that it's not completely above the water - it is still displacing a bit. To be completely planing would be chine walking the thing to the point of lunacy with a huge engine, think water speed record stuff.
Whether a boat is labeled planing or displacement is more to do with how the design is optimised than what is does each and every time it goes on the water or to what extent. Back to the tinny, it is a planing hull design because it is in planing mode that a hull of this shape is most efficient. Put grandpa on the stick though and he may not actually plane all day long, that is a planing hull in displacement mode.
Going the other way, a canoe is a displacement hull, the shape is optimised for efficiency at a low power input, although (some but not all..) given enough juice, say with a 8hp outboard on a bracket, they can be induced to plane.
Some things are useless unless they are planing - waterskis.
Some things will never plane. Hobie cat.

How does this relate to surfboards? This is total opinion department following...
I reckon most of the time most of us up and riding are in the grey area, tending more towards planing - this includes the type of board referred to as a 'displacement hull'.. Think about it, full displacement mode is sitting on your board out the back, if your board is as far underwater as that when you're riding then you're in full displacement mode. Full planing mode would be skipping along barely touching the water, probably going way too fast to engage a rail - the sort of thing that pintails were designed to avoid.

Upshot of all this for me is not to bring this whole displacement/planing thing into surfing, it's a recipe for confusion and misinformation. We did however inherit the words 'displacement hull' as a way of describing a particular kind of board that maybe sinks a few percent lower in the water while riding and is slightly more reminiscent of a boat hull visually. They're just words selected by some enthusiastic and lovably eccentric Californians 50 years ago, they sound pretty cool and have a nice ring about them, probably best not to read too much literal hydrodynamics into it though.

I just dont think the average punter looks at it in that much detail... myself included...

I'm a pretty simple guy so i'll keep it simple, for me:
Convex Hull or Belly or V = Displacement Hull
Concave Hull = Planning Hull

With infinite variables in between...

Well, that's ok. It will further muddy the terminological waters though.

Kind of like calling a Lopez pipeline board a midlength. Or a Velzy Pig a Hull.

To be fair, I really don't think anything that I have to say will have any influence on anything to do with board building or design...

And lets face it, we're talking about surfboards, not curing cancer so does it even matter at all

Haha, yeah. Bum end of a thread about uncool boards on a windsurfing website isn't exactly influential territory.
At least you and I know what the other means now when we say 'hull'!

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saltyheaven said..
NPJ 7'6 Duo

Midlength Duo's are so fun.
Bloke can ride a barrel on his backhand that's for sure.

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Toobz said..

saltyheaven said..
NPJ 7'6 Duo

Midlength Duo's are so fun.
Bloke can ride a barrel on his backhand that's for sure.

I love his body position in this photo. I went out in a closeout shorey a tad smaller than that today and tried over and over and over to replicate it. Not easy at the best of times but especially when you've got just a few seconds and its about 18" deep.

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saltyheaven said..

Toobz said..

saltyheaven said..
NPJ 7'6 Duo

Midlength Duo's are so fun.
Bloke can ride a barrel on his backhand that's for sure.

I love his body position in this photo. I went out in a closeout shorey a tad smaller than that today and tried over and over and over to replicate it. Not easy at the best of times but especially when you've got just a few seconds and its about 18" deep.

Yeah he's really opened his shoulders up so to speak. He's on his backhand but upper body is pretty much facing the wave

This looks fun...

Give this a try in the CBucket for the Indo Trip.
love the current performance but this Brother Marshall seems to have quite a following.
Will be fun to compare in good waves!

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glide77 said..
Give this a try in the CBucket for the Indo Trip.
love the current performance but this Brother Marshall seems to have quite a following.
Will be fun to compare in good waves!

C-Bucket a one board indo quiver for you or taking something else too?

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saltyheaven said..

glide77 said..
Give this a try in the CBucket for the Indo Trip.
love the current performance but this Brother Marshall seems to have quite a following.
Will be fun to compare in good waves!

C-Bucket a one board indo quiver for you or taking something else too?

Yeah pretty much...although also just got this 6'4 CI Fever...always fun in good steep waves.
really though I think the CBucket will be 90 percent. Long sessions in the tropics, the extra paddle is also a bonus.

I believe a slimmer base with less tip would work better

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glide77 said..
Give this a try in the CBucket for the Indo Trip.
love the current performance but this Brother Marshall seems to have quite a following.
Will be fun to compare in good waves!

I use the 7.5" of this fin in my Lizzy and old FT and really like it... I never change it or move and surf it in everything as It seems to have a good balance of flex through the tip and drive through the base.

I think SP was recommending something a bit stiffer/bigger though if you are chasing the bigger/heavier stuff so your original probably ticks that box... looks like you've got your bases covered...

Have an awesome trip dude

Canggu is full of those mid length boards

I was Looking at the 8" Tudor hull flex type fin but the current Ellis 7.5 fin goes good I didn't want to Change the game too much.
the CBucket has a pulled in pin so it doesn't need a lot of fin. This one is 7inch with a finer more flexible tip....and more rake. I think it's going to be a winner.
Im treating it as a self funded two week STAB in the dark style fin shoot out...hahah!

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Macaha said..
Canggu is full of those mid length boards

I'll be a million miles from there!

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glide77 said..
I was Looking at the 8" Tudor hull flex type fin but the current Ellis 7.5 fin goes good I didn't want to Change the game too much.
the CBucket has a pulled in pin so it doesn't need a lot of fin. This one is 7inch with a finer more flexible tip....and more rake. I think it's going to be a winner.
Im treating it as a self funded two week STAB in the dark style fin shoot out...hahah!

Tudor fin is good, very narrow base, good hold and flings you down the line.

Intereatng the lot of fin comments, JJ wessels seems to ride big fins in them and smashes them around. I don't mind a bigger fin pushed up when it gets a bit bigger.

But the old Christenson fin from CPT fin is still the best I found for the c bucket, looks similar to the brothers Marshall.

Bonzer centre fin also goes good.

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SP said..

glide77 said..
I was Looking at the 8" Tudor hull flex type fin but the current Ellis 7.5 fin goes good I didn't want to Change the game too much.
the CBucket has a pulled in pin so it doesn't need a lot of fin. This one is 7inch with a finer more flexible tip....and more rake. I think it's going to be a winner.
Im treating it as a self funded two week STAB in the dark style fin shoot out...hahah!

Tudor fin is good, very narrow base, good hold and flings you down the line.

Intereatng the lot of fin comments, JJ wessels seems to ride big fins in them and smashes them around. I don't mind a bigger fin pushed up when it gets a bit bigger.

But the old Christenson fin from CPT fin is still the best I found for the c bucket, looks similar to the brothers Marshall.

Bonzer centre fin also goes good.

I had the CPT Christensen fin as well and Vs the Brothers Marshall it's a very similar Greenough outline, maybe the Ch is a bit narrower through the tip and has a bit more flex but not much in it.

Only reason I kept the BM over the Christenson was the BM was the right size, 7.5" vs 8"....

Edit: Added the TA Greenough 4a to compare as well, thats what i have in an 8.5" for the 8'2" Lizzy

True Ames do a bonzer fin that has more flex than standard one and it really adds some zip to my board
On the goldy atm hopefully some swell early next week had a paddle low tide alley for a few inside ones on the mal minimal crowd mainly suppers

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AndyrooMac said..

SP said..

glide77 said..
I was Looking at the 8" Tudor hull flex type fin but the current Ellis 7.5 fin goes good I didn't want to Change the game too much.
the CBucket has a pulled in pin so it doesn't need a lot of fin. This one is 7inch with a finer more flexible tip....and more rake. I think it's going to be a winner.
Im treating it as a self funded two week STAB in the dark style fin shoot out...hahah!

Tudor fin is good, very narrow base, good hold and flings you down the line.

Intereatng the lot of fin comments, JJ wessels seems to ride big fins in them and smashes them around. I don't mind a bigger fin pushed up when it gets a bit bigger.

But the old Christenson fin from CPT fin is still the best I found for the c bucket, looks similar to the brothers Marshall.

Bonzer centre fin also goes good.

I had the CPT Christensen fin as well and Vs the Brothers Marshall it's a very similar Greenough outline, maybe the Ch is a bit narrower through the tip and has a bit more flex but not much in it.

Only reason I kept the BM over the Christenson was the BM was the right size, 7.5" vs 8"....

Edit: Added the TA Greenough 4a to compare as well, thats what i have in an 8.5" for the 8'2" Lizzy

Don't think it's the same fin. Think they changed the template.

This is the one I have, actually I have 2

Fin addict.

Bendy fins are rubbish...I use the

Dave Parmenter Widow maker from Alkali for narrow pins
Teh Austrlain Fin Co 7 inch if its a straight single
Takayama Howard Special setup on wider tail boards

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SP said..

AndyrooMac said..

SP said..

glide77 said..
I was Looking at the 8" Tudor hull flex type fin but the current Ellis 7.5 fin goes good I didn't want to Change the game too much.
the CBucket has a pulled in pin so it doesn't need a lot of fin. This one is 7inch with a finer more flexible tip....and more rake. I think it's going to be a winner.
Im treating it as a self funded two week STAB in the dark style fin shoot out...hahah!

Tudor fin is good, very narrow base, good hold and flings you down the line.

Intereatng the lot of fin comments, JJ wessels seems to ride big fins in them and smashes them around. I don't mind a bigger fin pushed up when it gets a bit bigger.

But the old Christenson fin from CPT fin is still the best I found for the c bucket, looks similar to the brothers Marshall.

Bonzer centre fin also goes good.

I had the CPT Christensen fin as well and Vs the Brothers Marshall it's a very similar Greenough outline, maybe the Ch is a bit narrower through the tip and has a bit more flex but not much in it.

Only reason I kept the BM over the Christenson was the BM was the right size, 7.5" vs 8"....

Edit: Added the TA Greenough 4a to compare as well, thats what i have in an 8.5" for the 8'2" Lizzy

Don't think it's the same fin. Think they changed the template.

This is the one I have, actually I have 2

Fin addict.

Ahhh, right... yes they finished that model...

That template works great too. My neighbor has a 7' channel bottom single fin with that outline and the thing goes unreal in faster/steeper waves. I know that outline works great with the widowmaker set up.

Personally I'm a big fan of that Greenough outline as an all-rounder in the Mids, I find they turn smooth and have really nice down the line speed... But thats just me and I'm a pretty crap surfer... and i'm very relaxed (lazy), I'm not driving off the bottom and smashing the lip...

I guess thats why True Ames, Alkali etc don't just make one outline for mids, one outline for shorty's, one outline for logs etc... Variety is what keeps it interesting right...

I like the Nat Young template by TA.

Talks talk this is me 1979 on what you guys call a mid length boom

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McHenry said..
I like the Nat Young template by TA.

Nice fin, holds a bit more volume at the tip so should be a bit stiffer I guess... Only one size though...

"This fin has been in the True Ames template library from the beginning. With classic lines and curves that come from the single fin revolution era, it makes an excellent choice for all around traditional longboarding. It responds exceedingly well to turns, while maintaining the ability to noseride. An ideal pick for boards in the 9' - 9'6" range."

Interesting... for me the TA blurb is bang on... and marketing propaganda rarely is...

"There is a reason this is the most iconic, functional and versatile single fin available...it works on just about anything! The Greenough 4-A has been our bread and butter for close to 40 years now, and is still the most popular single fin design there is.A truly well-balanced fin...the full base coupled with the tapering, moderately flexible tip provides a solid amount of drive off the bottom, and an acute responsiveness through arcing turns. Designed for both speed generation and spending time surfing in the pocket, the 4-A is a fin that will hold when you need it to and release when the time is right. A fin that can do it all, throw one in your board and feel the success!"