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AndyrooMac said..

laceys lane said..
What the hull. You've got to be kidding

I fixed that for you Lacey...

Well technically I still have 2 boards and all boards are a planing hull of sorts

Nothing lost though as I'm sure it would have been well beyond my level of general mediocrity

That's a liddle bit disappointing.

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SP said..

That's a liddle bit disappointing.

Slippery slope that one...

hulltastic-voyage.blogspot.com

And guess who this is for

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AndyrooMac said..
And guess who this is for

Sick! I wonder if those contours are as subtle as your 7'7 Lizzy (ie. barely there) and are just showing so much more under the sidelight, and whether he's going to roll that chine as in the 7'7..... Time will tell the answer I'm sure.

Are you going single only this time or plugs for the sides option?

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saltyheaven said..

AndyrooMac said..
And guess who this is for

Sick! I wonder if those contours are as subtle as your 7'7 Lizzy (ie. barely there) and are just showing so much more under the sidelight, and whether he's going to roll that chine as in the 7'7..... Time will tell the answer I'm sure.

Are you going single only this time or plugs for the sides option?

He does change the profile a bit on each board but it will be pretty close. If you blow it up on my 32" monitors you can see the chine is there...

Bonzer set up which I will try on the points but I cant see any point on the smaller stuff.

Surfed the 7'7" on racetrack beach breaks yesterday, so fun... she loves the juice...

Ah yes, I mean that the chine is clear on the 8'2 photo above, much less so on your 7'7 in the flesh.

Back to Mr Liddle and his esoteric creations.... Here's a Liddle Hull in messy onshore beachbreak, the kind of wave it's often said is a truly awful match for a hull. Dude seems to be doing fine I reckon.

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AndyrooMac said..

saltyheaven said..

AndyrooMac said..
And guess who this is for

Sick! I wonder if those contours are as subtle as your 7'7 Lizzy (ie. barely there) and are just showing so much more under the sidelight, and whether he's going to roll that chine as in the 7'7..... Time will tell the answer I'm sure.

Are you going single only this time or plugs for the sides option?

He does change the profile a bit on each board but it will be pretty close. If you blow it up on my 32" monitors you can see the chine is there...

Bonzer set up which I will try on the points but I cant see any point on the smaller stuff.

Surfed the 7'7" on racetrack beach breaks yesterday, so fun... she loves the juice...

He had a 7'2 on insta which is just what i was looking for, he had shaped it instead of a vbowls and wanted to sell,I let him know I was keen and he said no probs its still available i then asked for shipping costs and dimensions etc and have heard nothing, I know he was heading to NZ but thought he could get the ball rolling and leave it to someone to organise pack and ship, alas no such luck, a quick email or message one way or the other if its a hassle to ship Id be fine with, so close but yet so far.

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Ricardo1709 said..

AndyrooMac said..

saltyheaven said..

AndyrooMac said..
And guess who this is for

Sick! I wonder if those contours are as subtle as your 7'7 Lizzy (ie. barely there) and are just showing so much more under the sidelight, and whether he's going to roll that chine as in the 7'7..... Time will tell the answer I'm sure.

Are you going single only this time or plugs for the sides option?

He does change the profile a bit on each board but it will be pretty close. If you blow it up on my 32" monitors you can see the chine is there...

Bonzer set up which I will try on the points but I cant see any point on the smaller stuff.

Surfed the 7'7" on racetrack beach breaks yesterday, so fun... she loves the juice...

He had a 7'2 on insta which is just what i was looking for, he had shaped it instead of a vbowls and wanted to sell,I let him know I was keen and he said no probs its still available i then asked for shipping costs and dimensions etc and have heard nothing, I know he was heading to NZ but thought he could get the ball rolling and leave it to someone to organise pack and ship, alas no such luck, a quick email or message one way or the other if its a hassle to ship Id be fine with, so close but yet so far.

Was that the pink one???

They move faaaaaaast, i missed one as well... He's super under the pump atm

Forward Trim...

Forward Trim by David Treloar rip

Click link for vid

www.instagram.com/p/BvnVZtdnVoB/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=gyiw6qia9jl1

8'2" Lizzy and Trevor Weaver...

Click link for vid:

www.instagram.com/p/BSHzX7_ASOM/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1bme6zoaj1x1z

I had the pleasure of surfing with cuttlefish at his local this morning. Waist high, clean lil high tide runners. I took the 7'6 vquad for a spin..... semi finless! Great fun, "skimming" would be the best way to describe the ride, finessing the homemade mini keels, using the the beautifully foiled rails.

Its a really nice board, it has a tri plane hull s? after riding a thick Lizzy the last few months it felt really familiar. Maybe cuttles will put up a photo of the keels. Really was a great feeling and had enough speed to make sections, thanks mate, stoked!

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onefin said..
I had the pleasure of surfing with cuttlefish at his local this morning. Waist high, clean lil high tide runners. I took the 7'6 vquad for a spin..... semi finless! Great fun, "skimming" would be the best way to describe the ride, finessing the homemade mini keels, using the the beautifully foiled rails.

Its a really nice board, it has a tri plane hull s? after riding a thick Lizzy the last few months it felt really familiar. Maybe cuttles will put up a photo of the keels. Really was a great feeling and had enough speed to make sections, thanks mate, stoked!

This is the board in question with keels made from M7 glass flex fins I had lying around.

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Cuttlefish said..

onefin said..
I had the pleasure of surfing with cuttlefish at his local this morning. Waist high, clean lil high tide runners. I took the 7'6 vquad for a spin..... semi finless! Great fun, "skimming" would be the best way to describe the ride, finessing the homemade mini keels, using the the beautifully foiled rails.

Its a really nice board, it has a tri plane hull s? after riding a thick Lizzy the last few months it felt really familiar. Maybe cuttles will put up a photo of the keels. Really was a great feeling and had enough speed to make sections, thanks mate, stoked!

This is the board in question with keels made from M7 glass flex fins I had lying around.

Sounds like a cool little experiment, and a great idea... love it...

Been keen to try this finless thing but when the points are lined up I just tend to go for other options...

This is a pretty cool finless clip (about 4mins in) with Derek Hynd, going super fast and then banking the nice carves, would be pretty technical i reckon to master... Heaps of cool sb/mid stuff too... guy surfs unreal

nobodysurf.com/derek-hynd/?fbclid=IwAR1JoTG1awGqagmYpq_b6ZH-oJNlbkWqPskM6lUuxiiEqoS1iLeFvqFq2MA

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AndyrooMac said..

Cuttlefish said..

onefin said..
I had the pleasure of surfing with cuttlefish at his local this morning. Waist high, clean lil high tide runners. I took the 7'6 vquad for a spin..... semi finless! Great fun, "skimming" would be the best way to describe the ride, finessing the homemade mini keels, using the the beautifully foiled rails.

Its a really nice board, it has a tri plane hull s? after riding a thick Lizzy the last few months it felt really familiar. Maybe cuttles will put up a photo of the keels. Really was a great feeling and had enough speed to make sections, thanks mate, stoked!

This is the board in question with keels made from M7 glass flex fins I had lying around.

Sounds like a cool little experiment, and a great idea... love it...

Been keen to try this finless thing but when the points are lined up I just tend to go for other options...

This is a pretty cool finless clip (about 4mins in) with Derek Hynd, going super fast and then banking the nice carves, would be pretty technical i reckon to master... Heaps of cool sb/mid stuff too... guy surfs unreal

nobodysurf.com/derek-hynd/?fbclid=IwAR1JoTG1awGqagmYpq_b6ZH-oJNlbkWqPskM6lUuxiiEqoS1iLeFvqFq2MA

Well you are keen to try a hull so both seem to offer their own set of challenges to master. Going finless is just so much more left field for the rest of the herd...cough, cough, ahem...I mean...tribe.
The nice thing about the mini fins is there is no need to squat to ride the board. Since one is using fins there's going to be a point where they release and it happens quite suddenly since they are a keel. You still get an exhilirating sense of lack of friction when riding the wave though.
Costs nothing to try ...just put in a set of longboard sidebites or bonzer runners and take out the other fins and go surf.

Experiment time!!

I made this board with soft rails the whole way right to the tail, and always had the intention to build them up and see how much difference it made going from super soft to super hard and then gradually back to soft again. After reading the Edge book I got all enthused and spent a pleasant hour in the sun making the change this arvo. While I was at it the tri plane termination ended much sooner than before with a little edge heading into the board and leading to the chine, thanks for the inspiration GG!

Previously I thought the board had great hold but sometimes felt a little sluggish getting going. This is consistent with my understanding of the way hard and soft edges behave. Excited to see if this change follows expectations...

To be continued...... (after I've had a few decent surfs on it.)

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saltyheaven said..
Experiment time!!

I made this board with soft rails the whole way right to the tail, and always had the intention to build them up and see how much difference it made going from super soft to super hard and then gradually back to soft again. After reading the Edge book I got all enthused and spent a pleasant hour in the sun making the change this arvo. While I was at it the tri plane termination ended much sooner than before with a little edge heading into the board and leading to the chine, thanks for the inspiration GG!

Previously I thought the board had great hold but sometimes felt a little sluggish getting going. This is consistent with my understanding of the way hard and soft edges behave. Excited to see if this change follows expectations...

To be continued...... (after I've had a few decent surfs on it.)

I'm guessing this is the 8fter?

I think after riding it I was saying it was rad but I'd be interested to see how it would go with more knifey trails at the tail...

Soft for hold and sharp for release... One of the things I noticed with the Christensen and the Lovelace is the transition from soft to hard sharp rails just in front of the fin box...

Check out these 2, it's an old pic but you can see that transition with Lizzy vs the TC... And I'm sure thats one of the reasons Lizzy smoked the TC for speed when you put her in the right spot on the wave.

Super interesting that you can surf the exact same board with the mod .. I guess the issue is if it's not as good can you really go back?

Yep, the 8 footer.

I remember you saying that about the knifey rails. This is not any finer or more knifey in any way, just a hard edge - the entire change has been additional material.

Easy reversal - just sand it off! None, partially or all.

GG says that is how he tunes his boards sometimes, make the edges super hard with bog then reduce gradually (even on the beach between waves) to taste.

Like pretty much everything though, I don't think it's as simple as more hard edge or more knifey = better in every case. There's a balance to be had.

Most of what I see as foiled down in the Lizzy is behind the finbox, it tapers more to a thinner tip right on the tail. Come forward to where the fin is though and things are a lot more similar. (Well, obviously your old TC is chunkier, more similar I mean compared to a typical mid length.) My boards are all just a millimeter or two thicker than the finbox at the aft end of it, when I install the box I scrape the foam off the inside of the deck lamination for the last inch or so and the box just fits.
How much difference does it really make? I don't know. Every little bit counts I guess. But to really know how any one little feature affects the whole with certainty is a lifetime's work I reckon.

I know what your saying, with Lizzy the rails go from rounder/softer and taper to a harder edge just in front of the fin... they then go thin and knifey sorta behind the fin...

The harder rails at the fin help with the release of water for speed.

The knifey rails at the tail make the tail of the board act as part of the fin allowing you to use a smaller fin which reduces drag and helps with speed... It also is where that awesome feedback comes from when you the opportunity to do a full rail carve, just powers out of those turns but conversely catches like a biatch if the waves are soft. I'm pretty sure its also what allows you to NR the board, the thinner tail is sinking into the wave and provides hold whereas with the TC the thicker more buoyant tail makes it pop out when you head forward on the board... but the the thicker tail made it a wave catching machine as it floats the tail and sorta drove you down the face... I find with Lizzy you need to make sure you give it that extra paddle as you are dropping in or the tail sinks into the face and stall you as you are dropping in... so pro's and cons but for me the cons definitely out way the cons

Great Idea though, so did you fill it out with qcell and then glass or some other composite?

It's just premix Poly bog, straight on top. So easy. The US Liddle crowd call it Bondo, you know the look of a beaten up Liddle with crappy repairs - they love that look, it's like a worn old boot, well used and abused...



All the rest is a super interesting discussion I reckon. I'm hugely interested in the way board shape interacts with the wave. I love watching the water move over and around the board while I surf, anyone watching must wonder what the hell I'm doing!
Even just the nature of why a board turns - leaning a board over, why does that make it turn? Does anyone truly really know? I mean not imaginings and conjecture that sound plausible and feel right, I mean actual tested hypotheses. I have my own thinking on the issue but it's definitely not anything I've heard echoed by anyone else who's interested enough to speak out.
I've done it zipping along on my windsurfer, flat out doing 25 - 30 knots or so. Flat water, no wave to confuse the issue, all the time in the world - bit of weight on the rail... little carve turn. Back and forth like magic. No rocker in the back half of a high speed slalom board either so the carve still happens when there is zero rocker. Also works on boards with zero rail curve. Interesting stuff.

In the interests of maybe starting a bit of discussion and certainly passing no judgement or idea that any one thing is right over any other....
I've found that harder or more knifey rails in the tail, ie ones that release water more cleanly, need a larger fin to feel similar to a board with softer rails.

Yeah right, that sounds pretty handy... I might see if they have some at the hardware store, be great for patchups as qcell/glass/resin is pretty time consuming... I'm guessing its fine with poly or epoxy resin?

I guess i'm pretty interested in water displacement, or more correctly efficiency of water displacement... I'm a big one for just straight line gliding with my hand in the face... being as in-tune with the wave as I can... and then laying down a nice rail turn if the wave permits.... which is exactly what Lizzy does best I find.

Regarding the knifey rails... It could be the way we surf different I guess but from experience when you try a larger fin on Lizzy, Flat Tracker, C-Bucket, V-Bowls its like putting an anchor on the back of the board, they need a low volume fin or they just don't seem to work. You'll also notice the fin on the Liddle hulls, 9' but very fine/thin profile, same applies on discussions on these, higher volume fins seem to bog them down... Its not that i'm averse to larger fins either, my Log I run a damn huge D-Fin type thing which has excellent hold on the Nose but also does real nice heavy turns... Its the right fin for the board for your style for where you want to go on the wave I think.

Anyways, I'd be keen to run my 7.5" Brothers Marshal in your 8'er but I suspect it might be a bit too small... Ideally the BM in an 8" maybe.

Funnily though, I did actually lose the fin on Tuesday at Park, took off late and up the board and kooked it, the back end spun out towards the beach and I literally slid sideways down the face... Grabbed the rail and waited to eat sh1t but somehow she spun round, the fin engaged and we took off... This grom was watching to drop in and ended up laughing his ass off, couldn't believe I made it... either could I... I reckon its the one time where the side bites would have saved me... well... made the takeoff smoother anyways

Yeah sure you can get Poly bog in the hardware. I wouldn't say for a moment though that it is a worthy material for repairing a fine board like yours, unless you like a bit of a beat up look. No problems with adhesion or strength, it's just never going to visually match the surrounding board. Depends how much that is a thing for you. It still needs glass over it for larger unsupported areas in the same way that resin would too.

I thought Ryan suggested 8.5" or 9" for the v.bowls and by extension I presumed this carried over to his other mids (just my assumption). Maybe this is old advice... Did he give fin advice directly when you bought your Lizzy? (Not questioning that smaller suits you better for that board, just interested.)

pcprogress.blogspot.com/2016/06/vbowls-fin-placement-notes.html

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saltyheaven said..
Yeah sure you can get Poly bog in the hardware. I wouldn't say for a moment though that it is a worthy material for repairing a fine board like yours, unless you like a bit of a beat up look. No problems with adhesion or strength, it's just never going to visually match the surrounding board. Depends how much that is a thing for you. It still needs glass over it for larger unsupported areas in the same way that resin would too.

I thought Ryan suggested 8.5" or 9" for the v.bowls and by extension I presumed this carried over to his other mids (just my assumption). Maybe this is old advice... Did he give fin advice directly when you bought your Lizzy? (Not questioning that smaller suits you better for that board, just interested.)

pcprogress.blogspot.com/2016/06/vbowls-fin-placement-notes.html

He suggested 7.75" to 8" for Lizzy...

That post was from 2016 and the early Vbowls had rounder tails vs the pin so I wonder if thats still what he is recommending? Or if Vbowls needs more fin? But EVERY VBowls is different, the board is more concept than model... He shapes each one different to the rider and conditions and style which I think is super cool.

At the end of the day less fin = less drag but less hold so I guess you need to find the right balance for how you surf, and i'm no top to bottom surfer so I don't really need the hold, i'll take the speed with the smaller fin for now

I would LOVE to surf it with Ryans fin but the 2 he sent have never arrived... I think he's going to send one with the new sled but not too stressed either way

Trim and glide with Lizzy

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AndyrooMac said..

saltyheaven said..
Yeah sure you can get Poly bog in the hardware. I wouldn't say for a moment though that it is a worthy material for repairing a fine board like yours, unless you like a bit of a beat up look. No problems with adhesion or strength, it's just never going to visually match the surrounding board. Depends how much that is a thing for you. It still needs glass over it for larger unsupported areas in the same way that resin would too.

I thought Ryan suggested 8.5" or 9" for the v.bowls and by extension I presumed this carried over to his other mids (just my assumption). Maybe this is old advice... Did he give fin advice directly when you bought your Lizzy? (Not questioning that smaller suits you better for that board, just interested.)

pcprogress.blogspot.com/2016/06/vbowls-fin-placement-notes.html

He suggested 7.75" to 8" for Lizzy...

That post was from 2016 and the early Vbowls had rounder tails vs the pin so I wonder if thats still what he is recommending? Or if Vbowls needs more fin? But EVERY VBowls is different, the board is more concept than model... He shapes each one different to the rider and conditions and style which I think is super cool.

At the end of the day less fin = less drag but less hold so I guess you need to find the right balance for how you surf, and i'm no top to bottom surfer so I don't really need the hold, i'll take the speed with the smaller fin for now

I would LOVE to surf it with Ryans fin but the 2 he sent have never arrived... I think he's going to send one with the new sled but not too stressed either way

Love the Parmenter quote,

Everything is drag until it isn't..


This is a good response from Campbell brothers too. Can you tell us more?
In terms of hydrodynamics, there are basic differences between surfboards and other water craft. You are under your own power as well as utilizing the energy provided by the wave. There is no constant internal or external power source. When riding a surfboard you are changing directions frequently and the shape of the surface you are traveling on is constantly changing. Even the density of the water changes, for example , when you are going off the lip or cutting back into the whitewater.There are so many variables that basic hydrodynamic principles don't always hold up in terms of making the most efficient surfboard.

For years people harped on us with the, "More fins, more drag" diatribe. We would tell them that it just not that simple. And if it was, why is it that when you take an existing single fin and add Bonzer side fins to it, that the board now goes faster? It's not freaking magic. There are some physics at work. Designing surfboards is accomplished through experiential discovery - it comes through real world trial and error.

Select to expand quote

SP said..

AndyrooMac said..

saltyheaven said..
Yeah sure you can get Poly bog in the hardware. I wouldn't say for a moment though that it is a worthy material for repairing a fine board like yours, unless you like a bit of a beat up look. No problems with adhesion or strength, it's just never going to visually match the surrounding board. Depends how much that is a thing for you. It still needs glass over it for larger unsupported areas in the same way that resin would too.

I thought Ryan suggested 8.5" or 9" for the v.bowls and by extension I presumed this carried over to his other mids (just my assumption). Maybe this is old advice... Did he give fin advice directly when you bought your Lizzy? (Not questioning that smaller suits you better for that board, just interested.)

pcprogress.blogspot.com/2016/06/vbowls-fin-placement-notes.html

He suggested 7.75" to 8" for Lizzy...

That post was from 2016 and the early Vbowls had rounder tails vs the pin so I wonder if thats still what he is recommending? Or if Vbowls needs more fin? But EVERY VBowls is different, the board is more concept than model... He shapes each one different to the rider and conditions and style which I think is super cool.

At the end of the day less fin = less drag but less hold so I guess you need to find the right balance for how you surf, and i'm no top to bottom surfer so I don't really need the hold, i'll take the speed with the smaller fin for now

I would LOVE to surf it with Ryans fin but the 2 he sent have never arrived... I think he's going to send one with the new sled but not too stressed either way

Love the Parmenter quote,

Everything is drag until it isn't..


This is a good response from Campbell brothers too. Can you tell us more?
In terms of hydrodynamics, there are basic differences between surfboards and other water craft. You are under your own power as well as utilizing the energy provided by the wave. There is no constant internal or external power source. When riding a surfboard you are changing directions frequently and the shape of the surface you are traveling on is constantly changing. Even the density of the water changes, for example , when you are going off the lip or cutting back into the whitewater.There are so many variables that basic hydrodynamic principles don't always hold up in terms of making the most efficient surfboard.

For years people harped on us with the, "More fins, more drag" diatribe. We would tell them that it just not that simple. And if it was, why is it that when you take an existing single fin and add Bonzer side fins to it, that the board now goes faster? It's not freaking magic. There are some physics at work. Designing surfboards is accomplished through experiential discovery - it comes through real world trial and error.

100% agree with that, but thats referring too different fin configurations. I totally agree that Bonzer or Twin or Quad or Widowmaker can potentially increase speed especially through turns...

But we're talking single fin vs single fin, surely a larger surface single has to increase drag???

And its also subjective to the waves you are surfing and how you are surfing them...

Which is why my feeling is that my boards and style are better suited to single fin, i.e. i'm boring as fudge to watch...

BUUUUUT... If I ever get the Bonzer side fins i'm super keen to try them as a direct comparison... and Ryan swears they will give the board more drive soooooooooo...

I mean, personally I don't really care about the theory or diatribe so much, its interesting but really, I just care about what works... I need as much help as I can get

That's what it comes down to, what suits you and what you like.

I mean the commonly accepted theory is more base on a fin equals more drive. If drive equals speed then not necessarily the bigger the fin the slower it will make a board.
That's why that Parmenter . Everything's is drag till its not..
quote is great.

If you can use a bigger fin harness the drive does it in reality have more drag? Does it even matter. Surfing is a feeling, no one puts a speed gun on you.

But as you said it comes down to personal preference in the end and what works for the individual.

Nice one.

Where's that Parmenter quote from SP? I'd be interested to read it in context.


p.s. Andy, in a world where style on the wave is the thing that matters above all else, you're anything but boring to watch. I personally couldn't care less how many times someone hits the lip or how much spray they throw, if they've got no flow or have some horrendous poo stance that's not good surfing by my criteria.

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SP said..
That's what it comes down to, what suits you and what you like.

I mean the commonly accepted theory is more base on a fin equals more drive. If drive equals speed then not necessarily the bigger the fin the slower it will make a board.
That's why that Parmenter . Everything's is drag till its not..
quote is great.

If you can use a bigger fin harness the drive does it in reality have more drag? Does it even matter. Surfing is a feeling, no one puts a speed gun on you.

But as you said it comes down to personal preference in the end and what works for the individual.

Agree here as well within reason as there is a balance of going too wide at the base... My neighbours 7fter is this team nice pintail that has this really wide fin, and it's awesome down the line but the bottom turn on the thing is horrendous... I tried it with my Brothers Marshal below and it helped the bottom turn but deffinately affected the down the line on it...

Anyways, here's what I'm running, I think it's a pretty balanced Greenough outline and the one below is what Ryan supplies... Mines 7.5" vs his is 7.75" or 8" I think... I'd say mines wider but tapers more...

And then, to add to the conversation... I'm struggling to work out how these work.

The Liddle Hulls use this narrow base long flex fin and it's definately the go to for Hull riders...

I'm guessing the drive comes from the displacement hull pushing against the wave energy so less is required from the fin?