Hi got any advice on glide stability and steep take offs compared to normal shapes cheers

I have a JC short board style sup 8-2 x 113L and a minion 7-10 x 119L. I am 6-2 and 95kgs.

As both are short they have the benefit of less nose, so turning is much better on waves thank longer boards. The short board style needs a more powerful wave, whereas the minion I can ride in knee-high and smaller and more gutless. Both are great on entry, with the minion being particularly forgiving and more stable. Never really thought about difference on steep takeoffs, but they certainly surf differently. With the current quiver the minion is more stable so entry/take off on any wave is easier on it.

To me a longboard style (say me on 9ft+ and 130L+) has more glide into a wave due to flatter rocker and more flotation, so there might be an apple vs oranges effect depending on what you are comparing it with.

I previously had an 8-6 119L short board and the minion so had an opportunity to compare on an equal volume basis (I kelp the minion as an all-rounder and went down in volume with the shorty). They had very similar overall stability but the shortness of the minion takes a little getting used to. The differences of the minion for me is down the line speed and manoeuvrability advantage on the minion with good stability, easy entry for fun in small-largish waves. I went smaller with the short board style to get thinner rails, more rocker, tighter tail and less volume/cross-section for biggerish days (I am not a hellman). Going shorter for me has added the tighter turns and I like the refined rails on the customs with either style of board.

Thanks for the reply lotus,can you tell me what the paddle stability is like for boards of the same width ,I'm trying to work out what width to buy.I'm riding a 9'0 x 30 and a8'0x30 but struggle a bit on the 28' do you think a minion is a bit more stable cheers

Width is not a good basis for comparison. At 119L my 7-10 x 29 minion has comparable stability to my precious 119L 8-8 x 31. The deep calculator uses displacement (weight/volume) and skill to size a board.

There are a lot of minions here in sth oz and my observation is that this calculator works really well and within those recommendation you can make a choice between cruisy and highly performance oriented. I have chosen cruisy dimensions making mine an allrounder board. Most other crew have taken their minion dimensions a little tighter with respect to their weight and experience making them more performance oriented.

what gives stability is not the width per se. It is the "stability torque", i.e., for a half hull divider along the stringer, the multiplication of the upward force (archimedes says: the volume of board under water) by the distance of this force to the stringer.
The distance of of the "center of gravity" of the displaced volume is the actual width you want to consider.

For instance, for a close approximation, you could cut half-boards in carboard / wood, and find the gravity center. The distance of the gravity center will give you the "efficient width" useful to compare stabilities. You can picture that a board wider at nose and tail has a larger "efficient width" than a pointy one. and that volume in the rails will enlarge it, too.

So cut a scaled down model of your half-board in cardboard, find the center of gravity (balance point), do the same with a cardboard half-minion, and reduce the witdh of it (cut along the stringer) until you find the center of gravity at the same distance of the string than the model of your current board. You will have the size of the minion as stable as your current board.

It would be great to have a shaping program be able to give you these half-board-barycenters out of 3D models of boards. Do they exist?

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burleigh4220 said..

kaylan Dahl 6/10/27.5x3.25 chris garrett quad sup

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colas said..


For instance, for a close approximation, you could cut half-boards in carboard / wood, and find the gravity center. The distance of the gravity center will give you the "efficient width" useful to compare stabilities. You can picture that a board wider at nose and tail has a larger "efficient width" than a pointy one. and that volume in the rails will enlarge it, too.

So cut a scaled down model of your half-board in cardboard, find the center of gravity (balance point), do the same with a cardboard half-minion, and reduce the witdh of it (cut along the stringer) until you find the center of gravity at the same distance of the string than the model of your current board. You will have the size of the minion as stable as your current board.

^^^ colas who could be bothered doing that,and what would it tell me…sorry don't bother answering.




people just go and buy one

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Cobra said..
^^^ colas who could be bothered doing that,and what would it tell me…sorry don't bother answering.
people just go and buy one

If you have the money... why not.

Cardboard is cheaper :-)

Any way width unstability can be be beaten easily on Minion because they get awesome length stability provide by their large tail and nose.

Once you don't care or a lot less of digging the nose or sinking from tail while standing on those board, so you are able to concentrate on width balance.

And more : parallel rails of Minions provide drive, then speed while paddling. It's like push bike , speed provide stability...or kind of

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Kami said..
And more : parallel rails of Minions provide drive, then speed while paddling

And speed down the line!

If you ever found yourself on some large wave face, stuck in the middle and thinking "what is holding me back?", parallel rails will be a revelation :-)

i delete, sorry

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mort69 said..
Hi got any advice on glide stability and steep take offs compared to normal shapes cheers

Hi, mort69 .I'm thinking about half way of both design . I've been surfing the green 6'9" >28" , 85 liters for 3 years by now and did surf my red 6'5" <28" 83 liters.





I did try this white one when it had been finished 7'26" but not enough total scoop, too parallel rail to be surf properlyBut awesome stability and lot of drive while paddling to catch waves compared from its size



So i will do soon this one below, this is a mix of all the best of those 3 boards :

7' 27" 85 liters.

How wide is the tail on that board

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Ashmullet said..
How wide is the tail on that board

It's 31 cm wide and the narrower i can do with out sacrifice of minimum width's SUP
on green board it's 28cm and 36 cm on the red one. Thank you to spot on this dimension of 31cm because it's the purpose of this design: first getting tail as narrower as possible, second be able to paddle stood up a surfboard with its grave concern: getting buoyancy in the tail for length stability while paddling stood up to take off and being still a responsive, loose, reliable surfboard while surfing...Staying humble i reckon this kind of SUPboard design will become a standard in years to come.

Kami,

Why chop the nose? A more natural nose would be more stable and offer better glide, with only minimal swing weight impact - correct?

I dont believe that a chopped nose assists planing, does it?

Shouldnt make the effective rails any less parallel since by lengthening the nose you're only getting more rail, and much of it is out of the water while on the wave anyways. But when paddling the nose is in contact with the water - providing concrete benefits.

Plus a natural nose gives amore flexibility in rocker profile I'd think.

I would guess a chopped nose is stabler, if only because it avoids the "canard" effect of amplifying row instabilities (leaning right makes the right front rail catch, and turn to the left, throwing your weight even more to the right).

Also, a shorter board planes at a slower speed, and thus drops off a plane at a lower speed. Dunno if this is what you call "assist" planing.

I guess a pointed nose can bring you a smoother transition in/out planing, and easier piercing through chop and when going out.

All in all, It think a chopped nose has a lot of advantages for SUPing where we have to manage paddling speed while battling row and instability...

Kami, I love your nose lines (of your board, I mean :-) ). The slight pulled-in curve is really nice on the eyes...

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JeanG said..
Kami, Why chop the nose? A more natural nose would be more stable and offer better glide, with only minimal swing weight impact - correct?

I'm not chopping the nose, don't look to the square shape of the front or angles. Think about this square nose allows to draw front lines pull back a widest point of outline close or back the middle of the board . Once this wide point pulled back so you get a shortboard outline and also a short board attitude while surfing. It sound to me the mean purpose to "chop" the nose.
Second purpose , drawing square at the front of the board enlarges area of the nose (front quarter) and therefore increases volume of this front quarter of the board. In case of square nose , this quarter of volume is approx 18% of total volume . This 18% multipled by the distance of your foot position ( or metacenter which is your gravity center...) is giving you a maximum torque stability Compared of the pointed nose where last quarter of volume is lower than 10% and despite than distance "foot to nose" is longer, the torque is lot lower in case of pointed nose.
Same buoyancy/distance torque principle can apply to the tail ! in this tail case the last quarter is around 15% of total volume .Pointed tail or even square fall in 5% value ! So once you have length balance you can focus on the width balance .
About total volume : At same length and width, there is more area in a square shape than in a circle ( elliptic shape) therefore square shape get more volume for the same thickness this is why Vangard get thinner rail.
While paddling or surfing on a surfboard i better like to feel water reaction rather than buoyancy. So i love to feel of the square nose of my 6'5" 27.75" board planning on the face in a forward stance

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JeanG said.. dont believe that a chopped nose assists planing, does it?

You ought to try...once you will do it , you should reckon what i said up here; first about stability while paddling because parallel rails make disappears row effect and so paddling faster into the wave with all benefits of faster wave entries As well you will feel that the board don't sink down the bottom or pulling in hollow waves. I already sunk in reentry of off the lip on my red board 6'5" but i honestly think it would be the approx limit on a 6' shortboard to sinking effect down wave bottom...
Please, mind the fact to have a short board is to get your front foot closest of the nose and back foot on the tail. So Vangard SUP do it.
Despite i think Minion should be shorter that it has been do until now. I hope Minions will come shorter versus later on ...

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JeanG said..
Shouldnt make the effective rails any less parallel since by lengthening the nose you're only getting more rail, and much of it is out of the water while on the wave anyways. But when paddling the nose is in contact with the water - providing concrete benefits.

read up here, if you got me , try it you wouldn't ask this

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JeanG said.. a natural nose gives amore flexibility in rocker profile I'd think.

No, those board don't need nose lift; they have low entry bottom because they got different rocker balance between each others . Pointed nose need scoop to lift upon water , square nose don't because they glide even without nose scoop because they are large area. You have control on nose from your bak foot on the tail where the scoop is . This tail rocker allows to put thickness therefore buoyancy ................torture of balances will never stop