So the interesting thing about doing a consistent 5km time trial is you get data to analyse and see why your times are going down. Once you look at the data you then need to remember what type of paddling you did and how you did it on the day and figure out what to do next to improve the next time trial.
The data I have included here is for calm conditions, as chop has an effect and thought it best to only include flat to calm conditions, my goal after seeing these result would be to increase cadence over the 5km.





My increase in cadence increased a little and I tried to focus on the entry of the paddle with a 2min reduction.


On this paddle I tried bursts of high cadence as I have seen in sprints, shorter strokes but more of them for as long as possible. This caused some sloppy paddle entry as I fatigued but got another minute off the time so I was happy with what I thought would get a better result.
Also during this paddle I tried to bury as much of the paddle as deep as I could on entry as often as possible during normal cadence when not sprinting.


In the last 5km paddle yesterday I wanted to focus more on burying the paddle deep as often as possible and keep the technique for longer and not allow it to drop off. I also reduced the amount of strokes per side from 10 to 5 to reduce a zig zag effect and this is my best time to date.
What I find interesting is the cadence is very close to my slowest time at the start and almost 5min difference?





I thought I would try a 1km time trial after I completed the 5k to try a sprint cadence similar to the 3rd time and still try to focus on deep entry. Time was ok and if I could keep that pace up for 5k, which I can't at this stage my time would be 37.55 for 5km and I would be absolutely stuffed.


So the question is should you increase cadence to a sprint level with the power of a lower cadence over a long distance or should I keep focusing on entry and power when doing distance paddles?

Interesting stuff. I have wondered the same things. Without a gps it is hard to tell. I was using Strava but just bought a Garmin Quatix 5. So I can do what you are doing with stroke rate etc. What are you using?
One thing you dont mention is paddle exit. Dont paddle past your feet. No power after that. And a clean exit is as important as entry apparently. There are loads of vids on the net from pros about paddle technique.
As for cadence i really think it depends on many things. The paddle size,board,personal fitness etc.
As you said paddling straight helps a lot. Even at the cost of changing sides more often. So once you get better and dont change sides as often you will gain again. Again a lot to do with board shape and fin.
If you really want some of the pros have paid coaching. Not sure how much it is but I dont think it's crazy expensive. Even if you can video yourself and watch it you will learn a lot.
There is a great video of Boothy winning a race. The commentator was a good paddler and he was analysing his stroke and saying how good it was. He says something like "there you go folks that's how you paddle" at the end. I will try and find it as there are lots of vids of Boothy winning races!

Hi Tarquin
i use a Garmin 6X full Carbon KENalu Mana and have changed my fin to a VMG 35 fin, the first run was with a VMG 44 which has affected the tracking a little. There are so many videos of paddling styles and all are different, currently I am looking at a world sup champions technique and modifying it to my age, strength, fitness etc etc. The key point I saw was on entry I drive the blade down with my top hand as low as is comfortable without falling, over stretching bla bla bla. This drive helps pull the paddle through to the exit point around my feet position and forms a pretty good circular motion. I have not focused on it too much until now but the virtual race has peaked my competitive streak to always beat my previous best.
I find it best to do what suits your body and pick things that others do to improve your technique, everyone is different and cannot alway copy others exactly. That in itself takes a lot of time and energy and unless I am going to be world champ I do not have the desire to put that much effort into it. I have been teaching people physical things for many years now and have discovered that you have to allow them to walk their own way while getting the result you are looking for,

Dave you are so right. You need to make choices in your body shape. Mix up your paddle style to stop getting RSI repeated strain injury.
Also do long and short bursts of speed. If your constantly doing 5km a day. You should start thinking outside the box with your training, X-training, yoga building up your muscles. prone paddling etc. Look to laird for some advice.

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pumpjockey02 said..
Dave you are so right. You need to make choices in your body shape. Mix up your paddle style to stop getting RSI repeated strain injury.
Also do long and short bursts of speed. If your constantly doing 5km a day. You should start thinking outside the box with your training, X-training, yoga building up your muscles. prone paddling etc. Look to laird for some advice.

Not quite 5k per day I live away from the water but I am on leave because of Covid 19 and how it's affected my industry so making hay while the sun shines. Doing walking , cycling etc to mix it up until my other activities are allowed back.

Looks like you are all over it really. Work out what works for you. They are some pretty big differences in time with changing things around.
Keeping a straight course made a huge difference.
When you look at your track after you can really see when wind or something makes you zig zag more. At low speeds doing a few hundred meters extra over 5 ks will make a big difference.

I am thinking about going to a waypoint. Too much sailing.

Most of your average distance per stroke numbers are much too high. 100's of meter?

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billekrub said..
Most of your average distance per stroke numbers are much too high. 100's of meter?

It's an anomaly in the software that is caused by satellite drift Garmin say, sometimes it's accurate others it's way out but the rest of the info is consistent.

Went for a paddle today on the new board. 14x25 home made.
First proper paddle and just getting the feeling.
Didn't really plan it but stopped at 5 k and thought, I'll save that and see.

Conditions were pretty calm. Little breeze against at times.
The second 5 was a bit slower!
What is the app you are using Dave. I have all the info on the watch Garmin Quatix 5, but want a good app.
For the 10.7 Ks I had a stroke rate of 51 and 2.37m per stroke. Didn't do the 5 on the watch. Just on the phone.

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tarquin1 said..
Went for a paddle today on the new board. 14x25 home made.
First proper paddle and just getting the feeling.
Didn't really plan it but stopped at 5 k and thought, I'll save that and see.

Conditions were pretty calm. Little breeze against at times.
The second 5 was a bit slower!
What is the app you are using Dave. I have all the info on the watch Garmin Quatix 5, but want a good app.
For the 10.7 Ks I had a stroke rate of 51 and 2.37m per stroke. Didn't do the 5 on the watch. Just on the phone.

Hey mate, good paddle and top speed of 18kph wow. I use the Garmin app from the Garmin site as per set up instructions for the watch. By the way it's on my phone.

Found it! Looked around in the phone app as you said.Wonder what other functions there are in there!
I think the 18 may have been one of those anomalies you mentioned. On the watch I had a top speed of 15.3. I did surf a wave after the first 5 k.
You know James Casey did 5 k in around 28 min. He said it was funny because he hadn't been training for flatwater paddling for ages!

When I was young and fit I may have done the same but SUP was not around then.

I dont think I was ever that fit!
Funny story. The wife comes home from her morning run. You should go for a paddle she says. Its clearing up. The forecast is ****. But as always she is right its clearing up. So I check the webcam at the beach and it's not working. She convinced me and I check the cam again. There's surf (knee height breakers) so I decide to chuck the 11ft board on the roof and off I go. I get there and its glassy. The webcam wasnt working so they were showing a playback of another day!
So know I'm here wishing I had the 14ft board. Anyhow I decide to go for a paddle anyhow and think i wonder how long it will take me to do 5 k on this.

That's how long and it was bloody hard work.

The ladies are always right, lol.

Spoke to a friend that does a lot of sailing training and is a tech head. Asked about a simple repeater so you can see speed,cadence etc when paddling. The watch can send the info. He said just use an old phone. Download the app you want via wifi or put a CIM card in it just to download the app. It should work then without the CIM card. The only thing is a good waterproof case and mount will cost more than the phone. Still a lot cheaper than a speed puk or something. If you have the watch already!

I can get that info while I'm paddling it comes up on the watch and goes from maps to info in 3 different formats. I co Led reduce the info per screen as well so I can see better but I only glance at it from time to time but not when I am doing a time trial.

Yeh it comes up on my watch but I want a big screen telling me now. I don't want to have to glance at my watch!

Some good paddle info here.
www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36122.msg416550/topicseen.html#new
Went for another 10 k paddle on Sat. Playing around and I really find myself changing with the conditions. Shorter strokes,higher cadence when it's a bit bumpy and longer slower strokes in the flat once you are up to speed. The new board also tracks really well so changing sides less.
Managed to avg just over 7 km/h in bumpy conditions for about 4 k. Closer to 8 when its flatter.

Yeah it's interesting info when you get into it.

Get the sony xperia series old and waterproof, get a slip case and bumbag should cost around 100 bucks I used one for 5 years they go good. Music is awesome on them too. With external speaker on your sup.

I am going through a lot of similar things at the moment pushing my limits. A big (if not the biggest) part of it all is the effort needed. HR is a massive tell tail of how hard you worked despite what your brain is telling you.

Obviously we want to go higher cadence with more power, but can we sustain this effort, how do we make it through the race without crashing. Managing your effort and understanding things is important. At 6'2" and 90kg, I am pushing it on a 22" wide board, but my head tells me it is quicker. But on a 24" wide board I will get more stability and more lift but also more drag. So the question was, will I go faster easier on a wider or narrower board and can I sustain a more aggressive paddle stroke/cadence if I am more comfortable therefore using less energy.

Below are some stats using the HealthFit app which is excellent at grabbing stats for good comparison. Both sessions were PB's next day to each other.


This first one is Sunday. Riding the Naish Javelin 14' x 22". A great lap and beating my all time PB by 57 seconds. Pretty stoked. Good speed. cadence measured as doubles as used for running, but Average: 49SPM, max 60SPM. Stride 1.61m (distance between strokes). Average HR 161bpm topping out at 177bpm.
11.3 METs (which is a number produced to explain how hard you were working for the session. Bigger means worked harder).

www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/16497817.jpg' />

Then this one is the next day after work. I didn't mean to go hard, but wanted to test Naish Javelin 14' x 24" for speed and effort against the 22". Even though I should have been shot from the session the day before. I managed to top my time by a few seconds.
Here you'll see even on the wider board, by speeds were better, cadence much higher at 57SPM average and 67SPM max. Stride was shorter per stroke at 1.38m (i.e.the faster cadence), but my effort was actually less even though I had raced the day before - HR 160bpm average and 176bpm max with a METs of 11.1. Now this is only a tiny difference, but actually made a big difference really. If there was any chop or wake the benefits of the 24" would largely out weight the instability of the 22". I even seemed to recover faster on the second one.





So I guess in linking to your topic, pay attention to how hard you are working each time. It is easier to go faster if you work harder, but if you work smarter and harder, you'll go much quicker.

Cadence is a huge thing, but needs to be supported by hull speed and technique.

Thanks for putting up your sats, I am spending a bit of time with this right now and it is great to see others info. Would love to se your HR records for the paddles.

Also time on the water is everything, you'll continually get faster if you keep paddling (normally).

Ride safe,

JB

Hi JB good info and interesting g to see the differences and I have a 27 wide board to that changes some things as well and I agree Hull design etc also add to it all. I had a Naismith Glide 29 wide and it was faster in the flat than the Sidewinder but in chop the Sidewinder performs better.
My HR is no where near yours and at 59 my body has a few injuries that do not allow me to push as hard as I could when I was younger, hence why I have injuries from years ago, elbows mainly. Max HR was around 129 from memory but if I do more training, bike etc for the week I find my HR is less and my speed is greater. I have tried to push harder and maintain it for longer but need more time on the water and cross training to get past my current point. Now I am back at work I have less time to do so and that will take its toll soon enough.

I think there are few ways to attack the subject. Both cadence and power has their points of diminishing returns, power being the more
tricky one to read imo . For average paddlers like us, increase in cadence means a flawed stroke execution at some point. With power, it's hard to detect when you have reached the limit of effective stroke for the size of blade you're using. (too small as well as too large)

Some would find it more effective to increase blade size and stay with the same stroke count, other would be fine just cranking-up the cadence. I've played with both and found that in many cases the choice of equipment will dictate which is best if speed is the goal.

Here are some stats for a 40km course that I do from time to time. This one is on a 2017 Blackfish 14x24 with a 75sqi ZRE paddle.
I started at average 55spm but fallen much behind to an average 47spm at the second half of the course.



I did the same course on an SIC FX 12.6x27 with a 80sqi ZRE paddle at an 5mph average speed and a steady 47spm and finished more refreshed ( can't find the stats on the app).

One would expect the 14x24 to be a lot faster than the 12.6x27 on such a course. The 2017 Blackfish requires a higher cadence to achieve
its potential speed gain, once stroke count(and power output) came down speed gain was diminished. This was a clear demonstration for me
how important is the choice of equipment and the stroke technic I match it with.

Having JB's 2020 14x24 Naish Javelin or a 2020 SIC RS 14x24.5 available for this course would have made a big difference both on top end and average speed.

JB and Burchas, you guys are in another league.
This is a 10 k I did on my 14x25. I am pretty sure the 96 max stroke is a mistake! I took off well but you can see at 3 k I came around the tip of the island into a head wind and some bumpy water. Not a lot but enough to slow me down. I had to stop for a drink as well. Cant do the camel back. Tastes like plastic and find it difficult to drink whilst gasping for air. Had a break at 5 k. The second 5 was more of a cruise.
So a couple of things. My avg distance per stroke is just over 2m and is on most of my other stats. I noticed JB's is under 2. Am I trying too hard,over extending? I am 1m88 tall.
It looks like I need to pick up my heart rate as well.
Anyhow like Dave work is getting busy now and will be a while before I paddle again.

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tarquin1 said..
My avg distance per stroke is just over 2m and is on most of my other stats. I noticed JB's is under 2. Am I trying too hard,over extending? I am 1m88 tall.

I usually don't pay attention to the (dps) distance per stroke metric. I don't think it's all that reliable. But if anything, for long distance, longer dps=more efficient while maintaining desirable avg speed.

JB stride metrics do NOT represent his actual dps. it correlates to an avg cadence of 115. If you are to go by his statement of 57spm than his actual dps is about 2.8m per stroke which makes a lot more sense.

Yes that makes more sense. I couldn't see how he is taller and going faster and was doing shorter strokes.
I have no idea how accurate the garmin watch I have is. I think the distance and speed is pretty accurate but not sure about the rest. It keeps telling me I have a very low resting heart rate. I just looked and its hovering around the low 60's. Sometimes below.
I remember our kayak coach at school giving us a broom handle to train
for cadence. Concentrate on technique and keeping things smooth at high speed. We trained in a pool a lot as we couldn't get on the river all the time. So we had to do weird stuff like this. Maybe a smaller paddle and just concentrate on technique and cadence without too much fatigue.
I watched a vid of a French paddler recently and he said on long paddles he moves his lower hand up and down the shaft. 1 k normal,1k 1 inch higher. He said it totally changes the muscles used and you dont fatigue as quickly.

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burchas said..

tarquin1 said..
My avg distance per stroke is just over 2m and is on most of my other stats. I noticed JB's is under 2. Am I trying too hard,over extending? I am 1m88 tall.

I usually don't pay attention to the (dps) distance per stroke metric. I don't think it's all that reliable. But if anything, for long distance, longer dps=more efficient while maintaining desirable avg speed.

JB stride metrics do NOT represent his actual dps. it correlates to an avg cadence of 115. If you are to go by his statement of 57spm than his actual dps is about 2.8m per stroke which makes a lot more sense.

Great catch. yes the SPM would be double. That makes way more sense.

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tarquin1 said..
Yes that makes more sense. I couldn't see how he is taller and going faster and was doing shorter strokes.
I have no idea how accurate the garmin watch I have is. I think the distance and speed is pretty accurate but not sure about the rest. It keeps telling me I have a very low resting heart rate. I just looked and its hovering around the low 60's. Sometimes below.
I remember our kayak coach at school giving us a broom handle to train
for cadence. Concentrate on technique and keeping things smooth at high speed. We trained in a pool a lot as we couldn't get on the river all the time. So we had to do weird stuff like this. Maybe a smaller paddle and just concentrate on technique and cadence without too much fatigue.
I watched a vid of a French paddler recently and he said on long paddles he moves his lower hand up and down the shaft. 1 k normal,1k 1 inch higher. He said it totally changes the muscles used and you dont fatigue as quickly.

Your bottom arm is like you gears. I like to put a tape marker on my shaft at where my arms are 90 degrees when the paddle is over head (kind of the go to width measure for SUP). I use the tape above my bottom hand for power and the tapes below for speed, this makes a huge difference. I power off the start, and power out of turns, but once board speed is up and I settle into a cadence I slide my hand up about 3 inches to increase my catch, reduce lower body movement, increase paddle time in the water at the cost of some leverage. If I encounter some wash, bump of just want to pull away, I slide back down. I say below the tape is 1,2 & 3rd Gear and above the tape is 4 & 5th, and I use them like that.

Ride safe,

JB

Hi Jb and Burchas tried your gears today and did a PB after not doing any exercise for the last 19 days, also included my heart rate this time and I was stuffed after the 5km. Did some sprints but tried to maintain the deep paddle and use power for consistent speed, no matter how hard I push, my heart rate stays around this level.

Ok, everything just changed for me!!

I have been looking into this maybe more than needed, but something came to me while watching Johnny Puakea and Jim Terrell youtube clips and managed to smash my PB 5km by about 30sec. by adopting some key things that I learned.

My previous PB I did what I thought I needed and increased by Cadence and was stoked with the result. With this new technique (that I am sure I am butchering and still to master) I managed to lower my cadence (both av. and max) by 9 or 10% but increased my av. speed from 9.49kmh to 9.65kmh. Only a small increase, but interesting i way able to go faster with less strokes. Also this increased my DPS from 2.76m to 3.1m which is amazing. Stroked in total over the 5km went from 1825 to 1623. Max HR was about the same, however my average went up from 160 to 167 which would indicate I did have to work a little harder.

Pretty happy with the time of 31:11 for 5km.



So what did I change! Well if you watch Johnny Puakea especially, you'll notice a totally different way about thinking with regards to cadence. Consciously deciding to go firstly for a solid catch (which we all should be striving for, but I really concentrated on it this run), but secondly trying to go more time in the water and less time in the air, trying to match your stroke speed to your board speed (in actual fact with a solid catch you can not do this as it is solid in the water. I used to think I had a good catch - Nope!. I think this is why the HR is a little higher as it is actually heavy and solid every stroke). Don't over reach and be quick in recovery. Everything is about that catch, then be patient with your stroke.

Actually really amazing and I can't wait to actually get it dialled as this was the first time I tried it and it was mind blowing. I feel I will get stronger because of it too as the load is really heavy. You'll hear min mention that you'll want to change sides every 9-10 stroked and he's right, cause you'll get sore. If you can go 15+ to a side your not getting a good catch (which I used to easily).

Anyway, thought I'd share with you, still only used once, so not claiming it yet, but very impressed so far/..

Ride safe,

JB