A general question if I may? Looking at getting the best fit for purpose pfd and hydration gear.
For hydration, should I go for a waist mounted option like DJ, or a traditional backpack version.
For a pfd, should I get a foldaway or one like the boaties use that looks like small straps running down the front that are inflated when required. Look forward to hearing what is your preference. Consensus or majority opinion will then be followed. Thanks in advance.
I'm running one of these in the lifesaving dept: https://www.mtiadventurewear.com/sup/web400900000-fluid-20
And one of these in the hydration dept. (probably not so good for hand on the handle racing but I prefer to squeeze than suck):
www.raidlight.com/en/waist-packs/4015-pb-1000-45.html#/color-lime_green_dark_grey
The benefit of a waistpack is that you can swing it to the front to access food / gear etc.
Thinking once of these might be good for the hands free racing option as I prefer not to have a sweaty back backpack:
www.raidlight.com/en/bottles-and-bladders/3878-bion-roko-750-ml.html#/color-neutral
I've tried heaps and this new Camelbak is by far the best.. It has the added feature of being able to store my PFD inside..
It's so nice to not have anything on your back or around your shoulders when paddling.
David, which PFD do you use?
Timely question from Paul, I was only thinking of this on the weekend, would like the added security of having one whilst solo. The Starboard waist one looks OK (in the catalogue anyway)?
Re hydration, no idea, I take a 600ml drink bottle, but paddle 2 hours max.
I strap it to the board, stop and drink.
IMHO, the bum bag PFD satisfies a legislative requirement, but is of no actual use in saving you.
If you are in trouble, getting it around the front and putting it over your head before inflating it means you just drowned.
But I wear one on Westernport paddling solo to satisfy my wife, and on Port Phillip if I think I might have to argue with the water police as to whether I am 399m offshore or 401m offshore (or is that 499 vs 501?)
I wore it for about 6 months before looking inside it to discover the inflation canister wasn't actually screwed on, so it was less than useless.
At one stage I got all safety conscious, and went and bought the slimmest canoe / kayak PFD I could find, big arm holes to not restrict paddling.
Decided I should wear it when paddling alone, which is most of the time.
I was trying it on at home, thinking it looked rather stylish when my 20 Y.O. daughter walked in and said "Dad, you look like in Health and Human when someone had to wear the fake pregnant belly". It remains unused.
I have a couple of the wear them over the shoulder type inflatables in my boat, haven't tried them but they should not interfere with paddling.
But they are a messy thing to put on and wear, and again probably of no use if you are actually in trouble.
Possibly a waterski type vest would be best, but I find fashion and comfort usually win over safety.
No one wants to look like a dork, even alone, and until someone can make a PFD "cool" there will be little take up.
It's bad enough having to wear a bike helmet.
Not telling what my daughter said I look like in the bike helmet.
Select to expand quoteDavidJohn said..
I've tried heaps and this new Camelbak is by far the best.. It has the added feature of being able to store my PFD inside..
It's so nice to not have anything on your back or around your shoulders when paddling.
So how does that work , when you store your pfd in your bum bag ? I guess at least your bum will float , when you are semi consence after hitting your head ? I would have thought that the law would be , that the pfd needs to be worn properly ? I know it's all a bit academic because DJ never falls off and hits his head , but still I would say mr plod may dispute that ..........
Couple of options for hydration:
1). Waist pack - Camelback Tahoe.
2). Back pack - Camelback Molokai. (for longer paddles, 3hrs+ I use a 2.5ltr bladder)
PFD:
1). Vest type - best I've tried is the Vaikobi brand. You can fit your hydration bladder in it, has lots of adjustment and mesh pockets in front. You get used to wearing one quite quickly.
2). Waist type - never really saw the point; as was previously mentioned, by the time to you'd have it deployed and fitted you'd quite possibly be gone. Its ok if it's literally only a "box tick" exercise to satisfy the letter of the maritime law.
Select to expand quoteHawaiiheke said...
The benefit of a waistpack is that you can swing it to the front to access food / gear etc.
Thinking once of these might be good for the hands free racing option as I prefer not to have a sweaty back
Two excellent points and what I was thinking about the sweaty back which I would suffer from. Having some food is something I mentioned to some of the SUP Vic guys on the weekend on the distance paddle. Stashing a couple of power gels away would make doing longer distance more enjoyable. Not sure about downwinding as that is something else all together different.
Thanks DJ for the link to the Pfd.
Is there someone who is a staunch believer with a back pack style camelback who may be able to enlighten me on why I should get one of those instead?
Select to expand quoteKieranr said...
Couple of options for hydration:
1). Waist pack - Camelback Tahoe.
2). Back pack - Camelback Molokai. (for longer paddles, 3hrs+ I use a 2.5ltr bladder)
PFD:
1). Vest type - best I've tried is the Vaikobi brand. You can fit your hydration bladder in it, has lots of adjustment and mesh pockets in front. You get used to wearing one quite quickly.
2). Waist type - never really saw the point; as was previously mentioned, by the time to you'd have it deployed and fitted you'd quite possibly be gone. Its ok if it's literally only a "box tick" exercise to satisfy the letter of the maritime law.
Thanks Kieranr. I looked up the Tahoe earlier today. I'll look up the Molokai tomorrow. Are the vaikobi vests available in Australia?
Kayak style are good as you can still swim with them on and huddle up to keep yourself warm if in the water for a while.
Inflatable are near imposible to swim in. Can let some pressure out with a pen in the inflator..
Have numerious camelbaks. Leave them in the freezer so they dont go moldy. A water bottle tied on is just as good. And cheaper.
Kayak style or camelbak is great as you can keep some basic safety gear.
10$ will buy you a mirror (heliograph) what will work for hours and almost indestructible.
Splash out and buy a tiny EPIRB/PLB 300$ will get you a tiny one that lasts 7/10 years for more than just water adventures. No point having lots of money in the bank when you are all alone drowning in the middle of the bay.
And buy a good quality leg rope. There is lots of push from
Industry that legropes save lives.
Hopefully see you out on the bay soon!
I've got the same camelbak bumbag as DJ and I reckon it's great. I often don't worry about the bladder - just chuck in a bottle of water. It's got enough room for a few bits and pieces including a small marine radio.
The bag is comfortable, in fact it's easy to forget it's on. Being able to swing it around to the front is handy.
Select to expand quoteKieranr said..
Couple of options for hydration:
1). Waist pack - Camelback Tahoe.
2). Back pack - Camelback Molokai. (for longer paddles, 3hrs+ I use a 2.5ltr bladder)
PFD:
1). Vest type - best I've tried is the Vaikobi brand. You can fit your hydration bladder in it, has lots of adjustment and mesh pockets in front. You get used to wearing one quite quickly.
2). Waist type - never really saw the point; as was previously mentioned, by the time to you'd have it deployed and fitted you'd quite possibly be gone. Its ok if it's literally only a "box tick" exercise to satisfy the letter of the maritime law.
+1
Select to expand quoteKieranr said..
Couple of options for hydration:
1). Waist pack - Camelback Tahoe.
2). Back pack - Camelback Molokai. (for longer paddles, 3hrs+ I use a 2.5ltr bladder)
PFD:
1). Vest type - best I've tried is the Vaikobi brand. You can fit your hydration bladder in it, has lots of adjustment and mesh pockets in front. You get used to wearing one quite quickly.
2). Waist type - never really saw the point; as was previously mentioned, by the time to you'd have it deployed and fitted you'd quite possibly be gone. Its ok if it's literally only a "box tick" exercise to satisfy the letter of the maritime law.
+1
In addition to the PFD and Hydration vest, I carry a SPOT messenger beacon. Whilst it has an emergency beacon function, it also has the ability to tell friends and family where you are whilst paddling and if you have to bail out from your intended finishing spot, there is a separate function where with the push of a button you can send a pre determined message to a friend and it gives them a google maps position of where you are so they can rescue you rather than the emergency services.
Has been handy on the odd occasion. au.findmespot.com/en/
I'm interested in the criticism of inflatable wait belts vs pdfs.
If the proverbial hits the fan isn't a neck supporting inflatable life jacket going to keep your head above water and support you better than a light weight pdf?
I understand the "instant response" benefits of wearing a pdf if a piano falls out of the sky.
That's if you're actually conscious to pull it out of your bum bag, put it on while you're in the water and blow the sucker up.
Try putting on any type of PFD in the water and find out how much fun it actually is!
Fair point, but try keeping your head above water in a pfd so you don't drown when you are unconscious?
Yeah I think the neck support thing is not very logical as a claim of benefit with inflatables because the first assumption is you are unconscious and can't keep your head up. Why are you unconscious? Because you fell and hit your head on something? Then as magilla says, you haven't taken the inflatable out of the bag, slipped it over your head, strapped up, and pulled the cord on the gas canister. So forget neck support, you're already dead.
I suppose you could pass out due to hypothermia after having inflated your PFD, but if you are bobbing around in the water for ages unconscious and with hypothermia, once again, you're probably dead.
All I can suggest Hawaiiheke is jump in a swimming pool, tread water and try to put on any type of PFD whilst keeping your head out of the water.
There are many in the SUP community I believe grossly underestimate such a task. Then try the same when you add 20-30 knots to the mix and the sh1t is hitting the fan.
It's nowhere nearly as easy and simple as you think, putting a PFD on in the water, but it's something I think everyone should actually work out how to do it. My guess is it will change your mind on your preference of PFD.
have a look at the mocke (i think "racer"?) pdf... we shove a 3l bladder in the back for longer paddles & it has front pockets for phone/flares/food. doesn't restrict paddling, doesn't seem to heat up (i fall a lot), doesn't look very sexy (unless you're built like dawid or heath).
When I had my 'turn' a couple of years ago there was no collection of even passing out or warning.
So I would say if your going to wear a proper pfd get the neck/head support type.
And the rip cord gas type is only good for when you know your in the sh1t
Select to expand quotePaulShev said...Kieranr said...
Couple of options for hydration:
1). Waist pack - Camelback Tahoe.
2). Back pack - Camelback Molokai. (for longer paddles, 3hrs+ I use a 2.5ltr bladder)
PFD:
1). Vest type - best I've tried is the Vaikobi brand. You can fit your hydration bladder in it, has lots of adjustment and mesh pockets in front. You get used to wearing one quite quickly.
2). Waist type - never really saw the point; as was previously mentioned, by the time to you'd have it deployed and fitted you'd quite possibly be gone. Its ok if it's literally only a "box tick" exercise to satisfy the letter of the maritime law.
Thanks Kieranr. I looked up the Tahoe earlier today. I'll look up the Molokai tomorrow. Are the vaikobi vests available in Australia?
Yes Paul, Vaikobi is an Australian brand. Based in Sydney. Google their website for local stockists
Select to expand quotePTWoody said..
Yeah I think the neck support thing is not very logical as a claim of benefit with inflatables because the first assumption is you are unconscious and can't keep your head up.
I'm no expert but I don't think that is the case. The support is so you can lean back and conserve energy floating with your head up clear of the water for a prolonged period.
I think the "instant unconscious protection' is a bit of a read herring (generally and notwithstanding Lacey's turn) because, if it was a primary motivation, we would all wear pdfs when surfing where there is far greater danger of getting smacked in the head or having a heart failure paddling out / for a wave etc (or suit up in F1 protection gear every time we get behind the wheel).
Instead methinks it is primarily to provide a layer of safety when, forever whatever reason one is stranded (i.e. cramped up or flat out fatigued) and/or getting blown off shore and perhaps facing a night on the water (i.e most likely situation?). That situation doesn't require "instant" pdf floatation.
In that situation, and sitting on my board (assuming that my well maintained and fitted leggie is secured!), faced with the choice of a pfd or an inflatable belt with head support, I'd take the latter.
Genuinely interested in hearing counter-arguments and if a pfd would be better because I've considered upgrading the pfd I've already got to a better model but think that if the brown stuff truly hit the fan (sudden unconsciousness aside) I'm better off with an inflatable.
Perhaps there is a pfd out there with an inflatable head support option which would cover both options?!
Select to expand quoteKieranr said..
Couple of options for hydration:
1). Waist pack - Camelback Tahoe.
2). Back pack - Camelback Molokai. (for longer paddles, 3hrs+ I use a 2.5ltr bladder)
PFD:
1). Vest type - best I've tried is the Vaikobi brand. You can fit your hydration bladder in it, has lots of adjustment and mesh pockets in front. You get used to wearing one quite quickly.
2). Waist type - never really saw the point; as was previously mentioned, by the time to you'd have it deployed and fitted you'd quite possibly be gone. Its ok if it's literally only a "box tick" exercise to satisfy the letter of the maritime law.
I agree with Kitty. (and I hate doing that) I have actually tried quite a few of the big name brands in the back pack and waist styles and I've ended up using a light weight back pack style similar to what I had in my mountain biking days, It has mesh straps , a sternum strap and a waist strap for support. It is light weight with adequate carrying capacity and is secure on the body. It cost $20 last month at one of the big camping stores. It is so much more comfortable that the one DJ wears or any of the other big name brands I have used. I had the Vest Pac, but as it has elastic straps it sags and is uncomfortable when weight such as your water is carried.
On the life jacket front I use a padded PFD when doing serious down winders and the waist style when it is a tick the box excretes for races. The big foam one can over heat but if you fell it is ready to go. I have tried to put the waist style on in a practice session and it was difficult. I would hate to need to do it in wild sea conditions, let alone if I was faced with Lacey's situation.
Recently PT Woody posted a photo of one of his coiled leggies that had fallen apart over winter. I was discussing this with Kieranr and he mentioned he always washes his leggie with fresh water after use. Certainly a good idea if you can remember and have the time. Id hate to fall off my board and see it disappearing in the distance due to a leggie failure. Where we paddle there's no shipping channel marker to climb like the one DJ was able to use.
Select to expand quoteHawaiiheke said..PTWoody said..
Yeah I think the neck support thing is not very logical as a claim of benefit with inflatables because the first assumption is you are unconscious and can't keep your head up.
I'm no expert but I don't think that is the case. The support is so you can lean back and conserve energy floating with your head up clear of the water for a prolonged period.
I think the "instant unconscious protection' is a bit of a read herring (generally and notwithstanding Lacey's turn) because, if it was a primary motivation, we would all wear pdfs when surfing where there is far greater danger of getting smacked in the head or having a heart failure paddling out / for a wave etc (or suit up in F1 protection gear every time we get behind the wheel).
Instead methinks it is primarily to provide a layer of safety when, forever whatever reason one is stranded (i.e. cramped up or flat out fatigued) and/or getting blown off shore and perhaps facing a night on the water (i.e most likely situation?). That situation doesn't require "instant" pdf floatation.
In that situation, and sitting on my board (assuming that my well maintained and fitted leggie is secured!), faced with the choice of a pfd or an inflatable belt with head support, I'd take the latter.
Genuinely interested in hearing counter-arguments and if a pfd would be better because I've considered upgrading the pfd I've already got to a better model but think that if the brown stuff truly hit the fan (sudden unconsciousness aside) I'm better off with an inflatable.
Perhaps there is a pfd out there with an inflatable head support option which would cover both options?!
Okay I understand what you mean. One thing I would argue in favour of a PFD 2 instead of a PFD 1 (neck support) is that you aren't going to have much luck swimming with a PFD 1. Put one on and try. It's for floating, but you won't be able to move freely. You'll be waiting for rescue. A PFD 2 on the other hand offers some possibility for self rescue. My opinion only.
Select to expand quoteNNSUP said..
Recently PT Woody posted a photo of one of his coiled leggies that had fallen apart over winter. I was discussing this with Kieranr and he mentioned he always washes his leggie with fresh water after use. Certainly a good idea if you can remember and have the time. Id hate to fall off my board and see it disappearing in the distance due to a leggie failure. Where we paddle there's no shipping channel marker to climb like the one DJ was able to use.
The manufacturer of that leggie is looking into the problem and will hopefully let us know what the cause was. I think moisture and salt water residue has to have been a part of it. The Honey Badger suggests we do as he does and replace leg ropes every few months. I'd like to do that, but my favoured brand no longer makes the leg rope I prefer.
Now you guys are confusing the hell out me. I've seen the vaikobi - but it is only rated a 50 which I understand is a very basic flotation aid.
Then there's the waist belt versions in either 100 or 150 and with or without air canisters - which personally I don't think would handle the dunking I'd be giving them, seeing how my bike ones corrode.
Then there's the issue of a genuine emergency where I'd be buggered anyway, lost tumbling board like DJ or a genuine brown gouge moment when I'd be better off with an EPIRB.
Distilling this all down, I'm leaning towards a manual 150 pfd1 that is packed away in a waist belt.
I was also leaning towards a DJ camelbak Tahoe until the comments by NNsup. The other alternative a trusted SUP Vic person recommended as an alternative is the Molokai.
How am I doing so far? I know that I couldn't possibly cover every situation.
Besides I haven't even got my 14 footer yet...... Which is another discussion for the other discussion channel.
Select to expand quoteHawaiiheke said..PTWoody said..
Yeah I think the neck support thing is not very logical as a claim of benefit with inflatables because the first assumption is you are unconscious and can't keep your head up.
I'm no expert but I don't think that is the case. The support is so you can lean back and conserve energy floating with your head up clear of the water for a prolonged period.
I think the "instant unconscious protection' is a bit of a read herring (generally and notwithstanding Lacey's turn) because, if it was a primary motivation, we would all wear pdfs when surfing where there is far greater danger of getting smacked in the head or having a heart failure paddling out / for a wave etc (or suit up in F1 protection gear every time we get behind the wheel).
Instead methinks it is primarily to provide a layer of safety when, forever whatever reason one is stranded (i.e. cramped up or flat out fatigued) and/or getting blown off shore and perhaps facing a night on the water (i.e most likely situation?). That situation doesn't require "instant" pdf floatation.
In that situation, and sitting on my board (assuming that my well maintained and fitted leggie is secured!), faced with the choice of a pfd or an inflatable belt with head support, I'd take the latter.
Genuinely interested in hearing counter-arguments and if a pfd would be better because I've considered upgrading the pfd I've already got to a better model but think that if the brown stuff truly hit the fan (sudden unconsciousness aside) I'm better off with an inflatable.
Perhaps there is a pfd out there with an inflatable head support option which would cover both options?!
one way to look at it is if you pass out in the park your not going to drown there.
that's all that I meant
I also understand your point
Select to expand quoteHawaiiheke said..
Perhaps there is a pfd out there with an inflatable head support option which would cover both options?!
Now that is an idea. a PFD impact vest wakeboarding/kiteboarding type that will float you/let you swim, with a pull cord to auto inflate a neck support float section.
Select to expand quoteAndyR said..
Hawaiiheke said..
Perhaps there is a pfd out there with an inflatable head support option which would cover both options?!
Now that is an idea. a PFD impact vest wakeboarding/kiteboarding type that will float you/let you swim, with a pull cord to auto inflate a neck support float section.
A couple of US (?) guys are getting up something like that on Kickstarter. There was a thread about it here a few weeks ago but I can't find it. It looked bloody good.
