Hello,
I want to get a SimSup or Tomo based Custom board, but located in the south of germany our local shapers have quite some experiences in building windsurfing boards but not in SUP or Surfboard shapes.
Mountains, beer and brezels are more common here than waves
Custom boards from the US or AUS are not an option (shipping), Eurobased only Gong possible, but they have huge waiting times for a board and located in south of France are not really "local" for me.
So why custom and not big brand boards like a JP Slate or Naish Raptor or AHD Sealion?
I'm not sure what JP and Nasih offer is exactly what i want since this board should also work as a Windsup/Foilboard getting a Tuttlebox as a center box. (yeah, weird, i know)
The AHD Sealion boards, who also have a foil option now, imo are not up to date with their shapes anymore, reading all the stuff about Simsup and Tomo.

My idea would be a board around 8' x 30" to 8'4 X 31", 4 1/2 to 4 7/8", 130 to 140 liters, to support my 90 kg / 200 lbs in choppy SUP conditions or when putting a windsurfing rig on.
With this measures i guess it has to be more Simsup than Tomo concept. Or?
Outline and rails according. Bottom concave to double concave V in the tail (like Simsups)

So now my question to all you in the know out there:
What rockerline would you suggest for such board?
Windsurffing rockers would be to flat?
Im thinking of a staged rocke, flat scoop 4" on the first 3' , flattish from 3' to 7', than tailkick to 2" of tailrocker.
Is this any good for SUSing, i have no clue?
If somebody wants to design something like that in 3DX od Acuushaper etc. your welcome with everything you suggest.
Thank you all.
Alex

Hi Alex , i suggest you this project. IMO forget the winfsurfing rig on it because that 's not same shaping parameters and building too.
PM fot more infos.

I owned a Sealion, a real SUP with mastfoot, (Drops Vulcan), and a real SUP close in dimensions of the Sealion (the 2007 7'7" Gong Nano).

Like Kami said, rockers are quite different:
- Windsurfing boards have a fast tail rocker to be able to plane, but will feel very stiff with a paddle
- SUP board are a drag to get planing, you have the impression to drag tons of weeds. Just slog upwind, and then enjoy surfing the wave

The sealion has an interesting compromise. It will feel stiffer than a real SUP with a paddle, but it super fun with a sail. Note that its design has quite evolved subtly over the years: Classic, 8'3", pro, wings, ... My personal issues with it was:
- the deep fish tail: not an issue with a sail, but limiting drastically the rear foot positioning, which is so important for wide tails
- the 2 US boxes: quite limiting in fin options

So, I guess that a "modernized Sealion" could be very interesting:
- custom made to have just enough width & floatation for your weight/height
- a saner tail shape: square, squash, shallow diamond or fish, ...
- more fin boxes options, to be put in twins, quads...
- more control put in the hull tail: Simmons concave, Vanguard Channels + V, ... I had one of the early Barland sailboard 7'7" with an Al Byrne's tail: deep channels + round ping winger that was very interesting. I had an AHD Maxx that waas a bit a vanguard shape, but the flat hull was fast but hard to control.

But you must be ready to experiment, and accept that some boards may end up as dogs.

Or... you could go the new "foil" route with the AHD Wings or the future Gong Windsurfing foil www.gong-galaxy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5892

no need for that Alex,

There's a Benelux agent in Holland who pics the boards up in France himself.

I've had a few Gong boards and had no problems and waiting list.

you can contact him by

www.supsurfing.nl/

Wow, wow, wow, guys, thanx for your responses.

@ Kami:
I wouldn't like to compromise the SUS part that much.
I just wonder how much the "faster/flatter" rocker of Simsup/Tomo boards differ to windsurfing waveboard rockers.
When i measured my SUPs and Windsurfboards i found my Starboard Converse 9'0 having 40mm tailrocker and a 30 cm flat area at 85 - 115cm from the tail, whereas my Goya Custom Quad 94 has 22mm tailrocker and a 60 cm flat at 30cm - 90 cm from the tail (measure bar laying centered at 1meter from tail).

Do you have numbers for the rocker of standard Wavesups vs. Simsup/Tomo Shapes or windsurfboards?
What does "flat or fast rocker" of the new shapes mean in numbers, flat straights etc?
Something inbetween the numbers above may be a good compromise?

@ Colas:
Yeah, i also have a Windsuping history, Tabou Windstayler, RRD Wassup 10', JP Surf 9'6, AHD Sealion Classic 7'6, Sealion XL, (Starboard Converse 9'0 not windsurfed yet).
Best Windsurfing was on the Sealion Classic (flattest rocker), worst on the JP Surf (too much rocker).
Sealion Classic to tippy for me for supping at taht time, fat rails -> corky.

The Sealion Wings is interesting but i think it's to small for me for SUSing having only 109 liters, i'm 90 kg and coming from Sealion XL / Starboard Converse 9'0 on which i'm comfortable even on windy chop i guess i'd need still about 130 liters, for SUSing. And i'm with you, the shape concept of the Sealions could be improved.
No other SUPs have swallowtails nowadays and yeah, quite pricey, board + foil ~ 4000€ :-/
The Gong Windsup is new info for me !!
But when i get it right (my French is very bad) it's a foil only concept, no finboxes and to narrow for SUSing, pitty, i would be the man to get one, if it could also be used for normal SUPing.

Alex

Select to expand quote

AlexF said..
Wow, wow, wow, guys, thanx for your responses.

@ Kami:
I wouldn't like to compromise the SUS part that much.
I just wonder how much the "faster/flatter" rocker of Simsup/Tomo boards differ to windsurfing waveboard rockers.
When i measured my SUPs and Windsurfboards i found my Starboard Converse 9'0 having 40mm tailrocker and a 30 cm flat area at 85 - 115cm from the tail, whereas my Goya Custom Quad 94 has 22mm tailrocker and a 60 cm flat at 30cm - 90 cm from the tail (measure bar laying centered at 1meter from tail).

Do you have numbers for the rocker of standard Wavesups vs. Simsup/Tomo Shapes or windsurfboards?
What does "flat or fast rocker" of the new shapes mean in numbers, flat straights etc?
Something inbetween the numbers above may be a good compromise?

Alex

Hi Alex,
My english don't allow me to explain my inner workings about shaping but i try to explain this main 3D designing rule which i hope can reply to your question about compromise numbers:
Anytime there is a straight dimension as a flat rocker for example , need a curved line on outline. Otherwise board become fast but not loose. You won't surf on a straight edge.
So Vangard shapes get parallel outline..this is why they need lot of rocker . Once rocker has been adjusted to outline those 2D are geometrically providing a cross section flat .Here come the need to go concave cross the section. ( remind my3D rule)
Measurement come after this 3D rule... measurement depends of the kind and size of wave and to fit it. As speed and radius turn of surfing cant be compared at windsurfing wave board , measurements apply to my 3D rules cant be the same


My last compromise

Ale yes, the Gong will be foil-only.

If you had a Sealion, you may be interested by the photos of my Sealion close to my Gong nanogene, to see how it is difficult to "see" the rocker lines of the boards: the Nanogene (red) appears to be much more flatter than the sealion (yellow), however the nanogene had a real surf feeling and the sealion felt stiff with a paddle...
http://photos.colaz.net/index.php?dir=Nanogene%2F&startpic=0

I guess a Simmons in confortable dimensions could be the board, like the Gong AS 8'0 x 30", 130 liters

Alas it is not made anymore (not enough demand)

@ Kami
I understand your arguments, so your shape has some curve in the outline because of a flatter rocker for better turning.
Could you describe the character of the second shape you suggested, you say it's a compromise. Not so good for Surfing?
May i PM you to get the shape data?

@ Colas:
I think Gong is missing some customers with a foil-only board. Why no concept like the Sealion Wings for SUP, Windsup and foil, just with a more modern shape?
I wouldn't buy a foil-only board, it must also be possibel to SUP or Windsup this board for me.

Your pics of the Sealion show the rocker, but i think the Nanogene surfs better because of the more narrow outline in the tail and the thinner rails.

I'm with you that the Simmons shape from Gong could be the board i'm looking for, fitted with a tuttlebox in the tail for a foil.
Is there a Chance you could provide the shape data, so i could get my shaper to build a copy of such a board?
How does this board fit to the arguments of Kami, it seems the Simmons has flat rocker and straight rails, so this shape should not turn good regarding to Kami's arguments?

Alex

For the foil, we are still in the early days, so Gong cannot keep with the demand of the "early adopters".
I guess hybrids will appear once the technique is stabilized and that market of "casual" users will appear.

For the shape data, no chance, Gong has had always problems with shady brands copying their boards, so I know they do not want to share precise measurements. However, from what I understand, the Simmons principles are well available on the web, and are not very sensitive to rail shape., www.minisimmonssurfboards.com/shape-your-own-mini-simmons-surfboard/ www.swellnet.com/news/design-outline/2014/04/09/how-shape-mini-simmons ...

Simmons are turned like an airplane, banking, not sliding. They are not driven "instinctively" like modern surfboards, they turn differently, with more latency. For this you need the foot totally on the leash plug, and a hull design that helps putting on the rail like the deep concave. So yes, they do not turn well if you fit a modern fin system on it (quad, thruster) and try to ride it like one. But they work great and carve hard once you play with their speed and bank them.

Hi Colas,
ok, i get it, the new Sealion Wings also seems to have the deep concave between the fins like a Simmons now.
Pitty, Gong doesn't pull the trigger to put an alternative offer to the Wings for a SUP, Wind, Foil concept on the market.
But when i read it correctly Gong is also working on a windsurf and windsup line, could it be that this windsup boards also get a tuttlebox for foiling?

And how about your personal custom board, of which you already did show pics here (the twinfin having the C-Foil Fins), couldn't that also be a good template for windsuping? It has a nice flat rockered shape on the pics, reminds me of a Sealion Classic.

I'm still a little confused, about how the different new shapes work.
Simmons and Tomo shapes have a fast rocker at the outside of the tail and have more rocker at the center concave or channel, whereas shapes like SimSups, Naish Raptor, Sup Sports Mallet/Hammer oder the Shape Kima suggests, has a V in the tail and therefore the fast rocker in the center with more rocker to the rails. That's also the common tail shape of windsurfing waveboards, where the V helps to get from rail to rail.
I guess the higher risk in not getting the shape well sorted in a selfmade windsup is the Tomo or Simmons concept, whereas the double concave V seems the safer bet.
Still wondering how flat i could shape the rocker without affecting surfability to much.
Maybe you have some measures of the Sealion Classic you could share?
Alex

Select to expand quote

AlexF said..
But when i read it correctly Gong is also working on a windsurf and windsup line, could it be that this windsup boards also get a tuttlebox for foiling?

Currently the windsurf line are just prototypes, we (Gong fans) do not know if they will be mass-produced. The Gong foil kiteboards use a deep tuttle, but positioned for the Gong foil (more forwards than other foils). It isnt clear if there is a market for Windsurf boards: SUP and Kite have taken all the market, plus quality used Windsurf gear can be had for so cheap that I cannot see how to sell new gear anymore... (I nearly had to donate mine). I may try the Windfoil for the novelty sake...

My "personal custom board" is a true Simmons shape, yes. I guess it could make a fine windsurf board (with less tail rocker), but strapless only I guess, to be able to move around the rear foot as it is quite wide at 30". Note that the in early days of strapped Windsurfing, a lot of shapes were Simmons-like without the concave. To ride strapped, I guess it should be narrower to be confortable... but harder to SUP...

I sold my Sealion years ago. As soon as I got my first wave in SUP I never touched a sail anymore... I was a long time surfer and windsurfer, and discovered that SUP was the thing I was waiting for all these years, combining Surfing simplicity with something to do with your arms :-)

@ Kami
I sent you a PM.
Where are you living in France, i'm in Carro in the next days?
Alex

Kami lives in Lacanau, near Bordeaux

Hello, i send you PM last night ( European one)
But i would say that it's not a good idea to do a board which can do surfing and sailing. Planning area are not at same position so thickness and therefore foil won't be accurate to each other.
Buy a Gong SUP they have a bunch of board to fit crappies condition as the ONE and got a good sail board to rush the North ( and cold wind)

Enjoy cold and crap conditions with Gong ONE as Florian an exiled surfer in the cold of Northen Sea from France SW warmth

If your looking for a sim sup 8.0, the dutch distributor has the ASS ex demo for sale I heard.

Hi guys,
regarding the recommendations for Gong Productionboards, they're not a option for me (untill now) because despite how good or bad a SUP windsurfs i need a mastbox or -insert, because wobbling out and catching waves works with every sup (more or less), be it a AHD Sealion, Starboard WP 8'10, JP, Fanatic Allwave, Naish Nalu, JP Slate? or something else.
And for my (weird, crazy, bizar, idotic ...) idea of also being able to put a foil in the board (following the idea of the Sealion Wings), it means CUSTOM at the moment, because of the Tuttlebox the foil needs.

Maybe i was a bit unclear in expressing what i'm looking for in the board, these are the defining characteristics in my priority order:
0. Avoiding three specific SUP, Lightwindsurf and Foilboards and try to get the best compromise in one board (shape -> yeah , that's a hard one ...)
1. Must be sailable (shape -> every SUP that has a mastbox or -insert)
2. Good SUP surfing abillitiy for a 90 kg intermediate - advanced rider in small/medium waves combined with reasonable stabilitiy in choppy conditions (shape -> 130-140 liters,
> 30" wide, but various classic or modern shapes possible)
3. Windsurfing/planing "as good as the shape can", so using a shape that's more windsurfboardlike meaning wider/shorter/squarer/faster/flatter rockered seems obvious (shape -> Tomo, Simsup, Simmons)
4. Option for using a bigger centerfin -> center fin box US, (Power, Tuttle not common in SUPs (yet) despite Foilbox in Sealion Wings)
5. Option for using a foil -> center finbox Tuttle -> only in Custom build board possible (yet)

Sorry for stretching this thread so much.
But Kami came up already with a promising solution for realising a good "compromise" shape (CNC shape of his design) that i could finish by myself.

Alex

With your priority order, I think I would go for a Sealion 8'3". Their longer length has allowed for a thinner rail, it may fit you bill. And it is built to stand the Windsurfing abuses, mainly the mast dropping on the nose.
This rules out the foil, dunno if it is important for you. But buying afterwards a dedicated foil board may be cheaper than the added price of the Wing.
I guess I would try to add some "bridge" on the deck to close the fish gap before the kick of the pad, to be able to move my foot here

Note that all asia-made boards are going to get huge price increses for us europeans, The Euro is now 1.10 to an US $ from 1.30, and may reach 0.80. Boards prices are going to skyrocket, you want to either buy before the prices increases, and local shapers will become more an more attactive :-)

You could also give your Sealion to the shaper to copy its Windsurfing rocker, asking him to modify it at your wishes... Thiner rails, different tails, concaves, channels...

Work in progress:
Plan now is to measure rockerlines of my Sealion XL and the 7'6 of my friend, than decide which rocker to choose. I tend to the 7'6 and stretch it to 7'10.
Than straighten the tail, maybe keep a slight swallow or moon tail.
Than square the nose Tomo like.
Than put in 1" more width throughout the centerline.
Than shape in monoconcave to double concave V. Still not shure about that, maybe Tomo channels would be better.
Than thin out the board to 4,5".
Than thin out rails in the back third.
Than put in twinser quad box setup.
Than a tuttlebox between the feet for foiling.
Than buy a Gong foil.
Than hope that it works.
Alex

Select to expand quote

AlexF said..
Work in progress:

Quite interesting! Hope you will tell us your feedback on this experiment...

Kami, would you be willing to share that file of the 8-4 tomo type of board?

Select to expand quote

AlexF said..
Work in progress:
Plan now is to measure rockerlines of my Sealion XL and the 7'6 of my friend, than decide which rocker to choose. I tend to the 7'6 and stretch it to 7'10.
Than straighten the tail, maybe keep a slight swallow or moon tail.
Than square the nose Tomo like.
Than put in 1" more width throughout the centerline.
Than shape in monoconcave to double concave V. Still not shure about that, maybe Tomo channels would be better.
Than thin out the board to 4,5".
Than thin out rails in the back third.
Than put in twinser quad box setup.
Than a tuttlebox between the feet for foiling.
Than buy a Gong foil.
Than hope that it works.
Alex

Than should mean Then.
Sorry for my bad english.

Today i windsurfed the Sealion 7'6 against the 9' XL.
Decision now is clear, it'll be the rockerline of the 7'6.
The XL has far more rocker, and more and more i think the shape of the XL is dated and not the best concept for such a board.

Two questions for the experts:
1. What effect has the lateral position of the fin on turning ability?
The Sealion has the fin boxes quite forward placed, if i put them more to the rear, does this improve turning?
2. What is the effeect of using a classic double concave V tailshape against a Tomo concept with flater rocker near the rails and the deeper channel in the middle of the tail of the board?

Alex

1. the farther aft the fin is, the harder it is to turn, but with better drive and stability in turns.

However, this is mostly compared to the rear foot position. With the sealion, with the deep fish tail, the rear foot is quite forward, and the fins must be forward too to keep a sane position relative to the foot. With a square tail, you can put the fins much farther back, since your foot can be quite far back,

2. A flat hull is the fastest. Concaves and channels add control, hold and turnability. A single deep concave allows for more central rocker, less speed but easing the entry into the turn, and the concave edges help the rails dig deep into the turn for the hold. A double concave mitigates the speed loss while keeping the control of the single, and is more logical when a central fin exists to have it deeper in cleaner water. Channels are tricky to get right: sharp edges on the hull can be situational: the can work great on some situation, and induce drag in others.

I would go with a double concave: it is a good compromise and easy to do right.

Hi Colas and all others,
thanx for your valuable feedback.

Regarding finbox setup i still don't now what's the best option

1. Classic 5 box setup, 4 Future Quad boxes for SUP and a Center US- or Powerbox for Windsup
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2014/11/mallet-sup.html

2. Thruster Setup (spare the 2 rear sideboxes)
Does Thrustersetup work for SUP in Tomo/Simmonsboards?
www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=18792.0

3. Twin Setup like Sealion or Starboard Nuevo, boxes sitting near the rails.
www.ahd-boards.com/fr/models/sealion_concept/
www.star-board-windsurfing.com/2015/products/boards/nuevo

4. Trailer Setup, like 3. but with a Centerbox (US or Power)
What's the diiference in feel between 2 bigger twin fins and 4 smaller quad fins?
tezplavenieks.com/2013/11/14/small-sup-fins-trailer-thruster-review/
www.star-board-windsurfing.com/2015/products/boards/black-box
Dany Bruch who developed the Blackbox, said this board only started to work when he replaced the quad fins to Twin and a trailer fin.


Foil box will sit arround 40cm in front of the tail, since people who tried foiling told me it's best to have the foil between your feet.

Alex

And you forgot Kami favorite: the Twinser (quad with 2 big rear fins).

I must say that of all your links, the blackbox seems the most attractive. I would put as much fin boxes as possible to experiment :-)
I would use FCS rather than futures, because of the wider choice of fins, and avoiding the insaneness of the future system with 2 different kind of boxes for the rear & front quads.

And when traveling a lot with your board, put FCS2 boxxes in them.I love the the ease of endlessly fins taking in and out of the board making it a thinner travel package in/on your car (and you can still put the old style FCS boxxes in it).