Area10 said..
Nozza, lovely boards. Have you got a pic of those four SIC boards lying belly-up? The differences in the rockers is fascinating, especially differences between the custom F16 and the Bullet 17. It's a bit hard to judge how similar they are when they are belly-down and the picture is taken at a slight angle. It almost looks in the picture like the F16 rocker is lower than the Bullet 17, but I thought that the hallmark of the F16 was that it had more rocker than the Bullet, so I'm wondering if it is just the way the picture has been taken. Cheers.

I can't find a picture that shows all the boards well, and I'm now back at work with all the boards not in the same spot.
I took this when I was unpacking the Custom F16

Which doesn't really help.
I have however measured rocker on all the boards. Give or take a bit since this was done in the evening over a few beers.
Results are plotted below.
The below image is pretty poor, being exported from a pdf. If you are interested, PM me an email address and I'll send you the pdf or CAD.
I would also like to stress I have done this for my own interest, not with any commercial venture in mind.

Bottom of image is with the standing area level and the back of the boards lined up.
The custom F16 has 95mm more nose rocker than the 17'4" Bullet, and 40mm more nose rocker than the hollow Maui F16
Tail rocker on the custom F16 is 15mm less than the Bullet, and 55 mm less than the Hollow Maui F16.

Middle image is the boards level but the handles lined up.
The 14 V1 and V2, and the 12'6" Bullet are in there too. I have only measured thickness on the 17'4" Bullet and the Custom F16.

Top of the image is with the tail of the board lowered so tail to handle is flat, attempting to mimic what the board is doing when you step back.
This is a bit subjective given the surveying software I am using, but results in the custom F16 having 39mm more nose rocker than the 17'4" bullet, and 26mm less than the Hollow F16. In the real world, this may be "too close to call"
There are other issues in the comparison like the Hollow F16 getting to maximum rocker "sooner" than the longer boards.




In general terms, the 12'6" Bullet, 14" V2 Bullet, and the 17'4" Bullets are similar boards, with a single concave hull leading to a slight V shape near the fin.
The Hollow F16, which I am assuming is the standard shape is a pronounced V shape with a "keel" line and double concave.
The hand shaped 17' Custom F16 is very similar, with possibly a less pronounced V shape forward, but we haven't had the boards in the same place at the same time to compare.
The 14' V1 Bullet surprised me - I got it after the V2 and the F16. It is a very similar double concave shape to the F16, and if you can make out rocker in the image above, it is 160mm more than the V2 Bullet in the top image, and 67mm less than the Hollow F16.
In "level" stance at bottom of image it is within 10mm for nose rocker to the Hollow F16, but has 55mm less tail rocker.
It is my favourite board. But my favourite board is usually the one I am on or last paddled.

I hope this helps!

Wow - that's amazing information, thank you so much!

The Bullet 14V1 is your favourite? What conditions do you paddle in? I also have a Bullet V1 (and a V2) and I'm wondering about getting a F16 or Bullet 17.

A10, do you do all your downwinds in that bay? (been there even if I can't spell it)

Area10 said..
Wow - that's amazing information, thank you so much!
The Bullet 14V1 is your favourite? What conditions do you paddle in? I also have a Bullet V1 (and a V2) and I'm wondering about getting a F16 or Bullet 17.


Usually paddle Port Phillip Bay, which can range from glassy to choppy to what you see in DJ's videos. Fully enclosed (almost) so no ocean swell. Can chop up very quickly, and chop can hang around a long time.
Other times I paddle Westernport Bay, which is very tidal and open to the ocean. Usually ocean swells with wind chop on top, tidal races, boat washes etc.
I was attracted to the bigger boards by their relative stability for a narrower board. At 54 my balance isn't what it used to be. I find the V1 14 to be almost as stable, and easier to carry / manoeuvre. I'm no downwind hero, but hope to do more. Time / wind / work don't seem to align for me very often.
I think the F16 is more suited to lighter paddlers (75 - 80kg) with the Bullet better for my 95 odd kg.

Plan view comparison below.

Select to expand quote

yugi said...
A10, do you do all your downwinds in that bay? (been there even if I can't spell it)

If you mean the video of Hayling Island (actually, it's Langstone Harbour, which is one side of the Island) then not at all. In fact that's only really where I go if the wind is so nuclear (40-50+ knots) that everywhere else is too dangerous. It is very sheltered and only really starts working over 30 knots. My favourite run is about 5 miles along the coast from there in open sea and takes you 2 miles offshore. But it's very shallow in places (can be only 6-8ft deep 2 miles out) and is a shipping hazard area with strong rips so you don't want to go out if the wind is too crazy, in case something went wrong. So 25-35 knots is about right for there. Here's a video of Charlie Head and Brad Symington paddling a section of that run on a smallish summer day:



There are also milder runs in open waters in various directions locally that can get good. In fact it's generally a good area for DWing - you could pretty much DW or at least downbreeze 3-4 days a week right through the year. We've had winds gusting as high as 60-70 mph recently.

The reason why there aren't more videos is partly because the lack of light, and the cold, during winter months when it's best means that GoPro etc footage tends to look a bit gloomy and unexciting, and fogging etc are a problem, and wearing a head cam over a hood isn't easy. And, the conditions are so rough when it's big that you wouldn't want to use a DJ type arrangement - it would just get ripped straight off your board that first time you wiped out (and everyone will at some point). So, it gets a bit frustrating going to a lot of bother and risking your equipment when the end result just looks cold, dark and miserable. But it's a lot more fun than it looks, and I think several of us will be making a bigger effort to get some decent footage once Spring arrives and it brightens up.

Nozza - it's interesting that you mention the stability issue. The Bullet 14v1 at 27.25" wide is about the same stability in our conditions as the Grey Paddleboards 14x 26.25" wide board I tried the other day. The Grey board is lower volume and the lower COG and less rail area to catch wind and waves meant that it was more controllable in our total mess, and was easier to surf. I 've tended to think of more volume = more stability (all other things being equal) but now I'm reassessing that. I guess it's a trade-off between flotation (useful for catching bumps in light conditions) and control (useful for staying sane in big messy conditions). I'm thinking that maybe with a low volume UL board I could go narrower than I imagine. The problem might then be stiffness of the board. But I don't really know.

I don't really see or hear of many other people DWing in the kinds of conditions we have here, so I think they'll be a long period of trial and error before we find out what works best for us. Basically, I think we are experimenting in "shallow water downwinding" around here. Even the shallowest waters around Hawaii are still orders of magnitude deeper than most of ours. I remember my first surf trip to the Hawaiian Islands about 25 years ago, and being amazed at how generally civilised the waters seemed, compared to back home. I had heard all this stuff about "Hawaiian juice" etc so I was expecting to get mauled in even the smallest waves. But in fact if you matched conditions size-for-size, it was a lot easier in Hawaii than back home. Some of this was the regularity of reef breaks. But largely it was I think the milder winds and rips, and deeper water. (Of course, Hawaii often has by far bigger conditions than we ever get here however, so I'm not saying that Hawaii is easier per se, just that if you *match for size* it might be.)

I suspect that the biggest growth areas for DWing will be enclosed waters like you paddle. The safety margin tends to be a bit wider, the logistics are often better, and with no groundswell to worry about, DWing can be more predictable. You've got a good setup there, you are very lucky.

Thanks again for the info on the SICs. The SIC boards are so beautiful I have to stop myself from taking out a huge loan and buying one of all of them!

the f16 production is a big enough board to support bigger paddlers no worries.

my dwers on the f16 compared to the bullet show its more adaptable to changing conditions then the 17.4 bullet which likes the more spaced out bumps.

I found up in moreton bay the shallower steeper and winder it was the better it went.

while it cant match the bullet in the long bumps its no slouch either.

for our generally short period bumps and the bay stuff im super happy with the f16.

im actually looking forward to getting it down the tweed in spring for the ne wind runs which are by nature tricker and steeper then the norm here

Area 10.

Re above video - you are nuts. Have you considered golf or something?
Depth in Port Phillip I am not sure, but apart from the shipping channel I think is maybe average 6 metres.
Westernport where I have been in my boat with a depth sounder is probably 0 - 11 metres where I paddle, over 26 metres not far out.
I'm still in the more volume = more stability camp - the SIC "high volume rails" have it for me. Very hard to sink the edge of the board.
But having done limited paddling on the Jimmy Lewis M14, stability seems similar to the V1 and visually it is a lower volume board.
The hull shape as single / double concave with hard rails is probably more important than volume. This is a shape now common to all my boards, "Boaty" curved bottoms and soft rails may be fast in a displacement board, but I can't stand on them. And they look like boats not boards. And I don't really care how fast I am going - sensation of speed is more important.
I have measurement but yet to plot,
Tail rocker is also I think important - clean exit from the water when forward, lifts the nose when back.
You can definitely go narrower if you go longer.
I have a Naish 12'6 x 24" LE (2013 maybe) I bought for my daughter. I can do maybe 50 metres between falls if I go flat out.
Recent purchase of 17' x 24" LE I can paddle in flat water, turn, stand etc. Any chop is another matter.
17' X 24" Jamie Mitchel with a huge dugout I can paddle with reasonable comfort, but there is only about 40mm of board under my feet - if I bounced it would snap in half.
Evil little Helmy surfed it on a point break last weekend.
If you get on the SIC Maui website, you can click "Add to cart" as many times as you like as they only ship to continental USA.
14' V1 with steering was on pre Christmas sale at $1695 or something. In the same orange as my board. Oh Yes!
Will post more plots when I get time to input with the Jimmy Lewis and 17' LE.

Nozza when you gave me the drawings you did of the f16 the 17'4 12'6 and bullet v1 and 2 which version of the f16 would it have been?
If you have any new ones it would be great to add them to the collection.
Many thanks