So what is the difference beween normal glass and carbon?
Took my sunova into Sonic Watercraft for a dinged rail repair.
I said "it's a sunova.....carbon rails" Picked board up.....they said "not carbon"
Their repair not totally good so had second repair on it at "New Wave". They too sa?d "not carbon"
Is there sometimes a mix of normal glass and carbon cloth?

Still good construction ,it's the wood that gives the strength ..

the obvious why to tell giz .is carbon cloth is BLACK ,and glass cloth goes CLEAR .when mixed with resin .

or you can have the carbon inside the board as one or two of it's layers to make up the construction

In Hawai I very nearly brought a Jimmy Lewis Carbon Board when you picked it up there was no doubt it was Carbon
You know what I think J L the only way to go

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GizzieNZ said..
I said "it's a sunova.....carbon rails" Picked board up.....they said "not carbon"

They sound like a bunch of idiots, if they expected a board with only carbon in the rails to be lighter than a glass board.

Carbon is stronger than glass in some ways (more resistant to traction & compression), and less in others (shearing, abrasion, impacts). So you can use it in different ways:
- make a board lighter by using less carbon fibers than you would have used glass.
- make a board stronger, but as heavy as glass. It would make sense for carbon rails where you want the added strength, both to make the board more resistant to folding in half and for impact. But then it is mandatory to cover the rails by glass layers, otherwise they will shatter on paddle impacts, meaning no weight gains.

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towball said..
In Hawai I very nearly brought a Jimmy Lewis Carbon Board when you picked it up there was no doubt it was Carbon
You know what I think J L the only way to go

Gotta admire the jimmy lewis construction for sure.
High density foam inserts around the fin boxes.....that must score an A plus

But what about my favourite Ke Nalu X tuff paddle shaft......allegedly mix of glass and carbon ?

My understanding is that all those little black lines running along the board is the carbon, and the black on the rails is carbon.

The only carbon on most Sunova models is the Black Carbon rails. ... and it is carbon.
Some models, like the Flash, have black carbon cloth "stringers" on deck and bottom.

The black lines in the deck are not carbon.
To get the performance and desired weight he wanted, Bert has used wood sandwich construction for decades.
To get a stiff, strong deck, Sunova cuts thin slits in the balsa slats.
The resin flows though these slits, to join the fiberglass cloth above and below the balsa slat.
This makes a very strong sandwich of Glass/Balsa/Glass, stiffened by hundreds of little "I-beams"

The bottom of Sunova's doesn't have the slits that make the black "I-beam" lines.
The bottoms are made to have built in "give" that eliminate stiffness and chatter, and give these boards amazing "feel" in the waves.

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supthecreek said..
The only carbon on most Sunova models is the Black Carbon rails. ... and it is carbon.
Some models, like the Flash, have black carbon cloth "stringers" on deck and bottom.

The black lines in the deck are not carbon.
To get the performance and desired weight he wanted, Bert has used wood sandwich construction for decades.
To get a stiff, strong deck, Sunova cuts thin slits in the balsa slats.
The resin flows though these slits, to join the fiberglass cloth above and below the balsa slat.
This makes a very strong sandwich of Glass/Balsa/Glass, stiffened by hundreds of little "I-beams"

The bottom of Sunova's doesn't have the slits that make the black "I-beam" lines.
The bottoms are made to have built in "give" that eliminate stiffness and chatter, and give these boards amazing "feel" in the waves.

You beat me to it. They look like black ink rubbed back to emphasise the grain to me.

Rode my older 8 10 Speeed today after time on my carbon sandwich SMIK and a custom Sunova. It felt heavy and soggy, but in a good way, like a comfy pair of old jeans. Soaked up the bumps and the foot hollows were nice and soft :)

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hilly said..
You beat me to it. They look like black ink rubbed back to emphasise the grain to me.

I know Gong tried some prototypes of boards having both carbon and visible wood, and stopped. The dust of the carbon in the factory was getting in the wood ridges, creating unwanted black lines in the wood (you definitively need a mask if somebody is sanding carbon nearby). So it may be just unavoidable carbon dust?... (just guessing here).

I am not guessing.
Again:
The lines are cut through the balsa, on purpose, to form "I-beams" that connect the fiberglass above and below the balsa. This technique makes a stronger sandwich construction.

The test:
press your thumb into the deck of a Sunova... it will feel hard and stiff. On purpose. It gives great strength to the deck.
Then:
Gently press your thumb into the bottom of your Sunova.... it will give a bit, on purpose. The softer bottom construction gives the board "feel" in waves.

The XXX construction is totally unique and designed for function.
Firewire was all about Bert Burger's wood sandwich Tech.... and this latest "Bert Tech" is better.

Unless there is additional fiber involved the mythical I-beam comes to nothing...resin by it self has no meanifull strength. Think about it...that's the whole reason Prepreg is the ultimate in composites...minimal resin/maximum fiber...to a lesser extent, but still superior to standard hand layup is vacuum bagging...same principal try to get max fiber to resin ratio. Even the best conventional glassers squeegee out all excess resin. Extra resin is extra weight with no up side.

Is is this something that Sonova said?or something you concluded on your own? Doesn't sound like something that would come from a respected shaper/ glasser.

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rghdc said..
Unless there is additional fiber involved the mythical I-beam comes to nothing...resin by it self has no meanifull strength. Think about it...that's the whole reason Prepreg is the ultimate in composites...minimal resin/maximum fiber...to a lesser extent, but still superior to standard hand layup is vacuum bagging...same principal try to get max fiber to resin ratio. Even the best conventional glassers squeegee out all excess resin. Extra resin is extra weight with no up side.

Is is this something that Sonova said?or something you concluded on your own? Doesn't sound like something that would come from a respected shaper/ glasser.

Bert has made videos of every aspect of his shaping and tech.
Sunova is an "Open Source" company that shares all tech and design willingly.
The vids make board design and tech very easy to understand

These vids are done using their surfboards for props, but the tech is the same.

Deck "I-beams":


Smooth bottom:


Lots of great vids on the Sunova website under "Technology"
great source of knowledge on flex, fins, or anything else you might be curious about, in surfboard design.

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rghdc said..
resin by it self has no meanifull strength

Yes, but wood wet with resin has a lot! My understanding is that the stiffness is given by the wood sides of the "I" that get impregnated with resin. Kind of an "II" beam rather than a "I".

Back to Gizzies question, here is the Search Nozza pre glass.
Carbon in the rails pretty obvious.

So if carbon is stronger than glass, does it flex like glass? If no would this change how a board performs? I've read about how people like how carbon boards are lighter than standard boards, interested whether they also perform differently.

I had a look at both the Sunova and JL construction videos, which is great that they both share this information. It's interesting how both focus on strength but Bert also talks a lot about the importance of flex. It would be cool to see Jimmy bouncing on one of his boards as a comparison to Bert bouncing on his.

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MarkW81 said..
So if carbon is stronger than glass, does it flex like glass? If no would this change how a board performs? I've read about how people like how carbon boards are lighter than standard boards, interested whether they also perform differently.

I had a look at both the Sunova and JL construction videos, which is great that they both share this information. It's interesting how both focus on strength but Bert also talks a lot about the importance of flex. It would be cool to see Jimmy bouncing on one of his boards as a comparison to Bert bouncing on his.

Carbon great for small waves generating speed. Flex better for bigger faster waves with a bit of bump on it. Like suspension on a mtb absorbing the little bumps and controlling speed.
Minor player compared to rail profile, rocker, foil and width.

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hilly said..

MarkW81 said..
So if carbon is stronger than glass, does it flex like glass? If no would this change how a board performs? I've read about how people like how carbon boards are lighter than standard boards, interested whether they also perform differently.

I had a look at both the Sunova and JL construction videos, which is great that they both share this information. It's interesting how both focus on strength but Bert also talks a lot about the importance of flex. It would be cool to see Jimmy bouncing on one of his boards as a comparison to Bert bouncing on his.

Carbon great for small waves generating speed. Flex better for bigger faster waves with a bit of bump on it. Like suspension on a mtb absorbing the little bumps and controlling speed.
Minor player compared to rail profile, rocker, foil and width.

agree-

I use a 9'1 carbon Supertech as my step up board. The full carbon is actually a bit of a detriment sometimes. On choppy winter head high + waves here in NJ it gets super bouncy- and i wont use it if the offshores are 15mph on up. i actually use an old 2011 Infinity boardworks TL that prob weighs 20-25 lbs. Helps keep the thing on the wave!