I've demoed the new fanatic 7'6, it surfs amazing. I was looking for something a little shorter, the starboard 7'4 and Nash 7'3 are in my sights, the only thing stoping me is the rail profile of them both; they seem much thicker than the fanatic and was wondering if it will decrease the rail to rail and cut the wave differently while surfing on them.

hi tyisaac,my sup experience is limited but with short boards fine rails are more responsive and will feel livelier, but work better with faster waves,reduced volume may effect buoyancy and stability at rest,im starting to see similarities between sups and short boards which makes sense really.

Thin rails are more adapted to fast waves, and stability and grip in high speed turns.
Thick rails are more fun ins slow waves, and also more forgiving and easier to break curves: that's why most world cup boards have high volume boxy rails (relative to the overall dims) with a flat deck.

So rail thickness depend on your conditions and the style of surf you prefer.

Just remember even the thinnest SUP rails are thicker than a thick SB rail.....

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husq2100 said..
Just remember even the thinnest SUP rails are thicker than a thick SB rail.....

NO, if you shortened Thomo vanguard type SUP at a minimum of floatation plus S rail, so can have thinner rail than thicker SB.
YES, staying old norm of SUP :pointed nose out line or standing up facilities or paddling capacities on long distance .

The main reason is : a square outline get more area than a pointed ( circle) outline . Square shape can be thinner than a rounded shape for same volume.
Therefore SUP rail can be thinner on a square design of board, and it's more stable with smaller dim of length and width

I agree with the idea of what you are saying. But please re read what I said. I have not yet seen a sup rail, especially mid section leading back to tail that has rails near the thinness of a short board. Yes some noses and tails are getting thin but still not there.

You dont see long boarders saying "he lets make our rails thicker like sup for better performance in small waves"...

Imo board width and thickness is a key area of performance that less is more.

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husq2100 said..
I agree with the idea of what you are saying. But please re read what I said. I have not yet seen a sup rail, especially mid section leading back to tail that has rails near the thinness of a short board. Yes some noses and tails are getting thin but still not there.

You dont see long boarders saying "he lets make our rails thicker like sup for better performance in small waves"...

Imo board width and thickness is a key area of performance that less is more.

I agree with you too. Once you settle the performance key area of width and thickness, can be impossible despite of any shaping trick or SUPer 's adaptation to get a thinner rail on a SUP as we use to get on SB
I really focus my knowledge on this..., so if you want some rail performance, IMO remains 3 ways:

#1: Flexibility : this is why i stick flexible bodyboard technology on tail of my board.

#2: Fins: use convex intrados fin instead of flat or worst ( seems to me) concave intrados fin. Because convex shape make bite the rail instead concave fin planning itself and releasing the rail.

#3: Channeled board with convex fin ( like AB2 FCS fins), this system digs the rail and channeled plan shape making high performance board planning more on the whole plan shape rather than biting rail, this is the must of what I'm speaking about
CFin with is cut away fin tip type and wide base can be a able to do same effect but with less power on rail performance as the channel bottom does.

I hope gave a reply to mort69

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husq2100 said..
You dont see long boarders saying "he lets make our rails thicker like sup for better performance in small waves"...

This if for longboarding in slow waves, where the board works mainly in displacement mode, "in" the water.

With a shortboard you want to get on top of the water to plane, and minimize drag in turns, better achieved with high volume rails.

Think of it as tyres: slick tires are fast but spin out easily at speed, grooved ones hold better but are slower.

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colas said..

husq2100 said..
You dont see long boarders saying "he lets make our rails thicker like sup for better performance in small waves"...

This if for longboarding in slow waves, where the board works mainly in displacement mode, "in" the water.

With a shortboard you want to get on top of the water to plane, and minimize drag in turns, better achieved with high volume rails.

Think of it as tyres: slick tires are fast but spin out easily at speed, grooved ones hold better but are slower.

Hi colas,
small wave doesn't mean slow waves.
about shaping thin rail on a flat rocker as well as boxy rail on a lot of rocker, both won't work.

Colas,

Could you please elaborate on the thick v thin rail thing?

I am quite confused by the tendency of pros to use thick rails on some of their boards. Not sure that I quite understand the entirety of the explanation, as it seems to me that pros would want to be able to stick the rail when carving turns, and also that short boards seem to have quite thin rails.

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JeanG said..
I am quite confused by the tendency of pros to use thick rails on some of their boards.

Pros want to win their heats, that's all. So they will favor design features that will enable them to score points in the current system.

From what I understand, boxy rails carry more speed in turns, and are much more tolerant, allowing the pros to recover better from extreme manoeuvers, minimizing the chance of falling by catching a rail that would kill their score. Thus boxy rails are adapted to the style of surfing the judges seem to favor: just gathering speed for one wham-bam big move. Carving turns wont score you as much points currently, and require very good waves, not your average contest wave.

high volume and/or boxy rails can be high performance. Well shaped high volume rails give you the feeling of having your board on "ball bearings" in turns: the board glides through the turn on their rails without losing speed. Plain round rails will slow your boards in turns however. Thin rails give you more control, and are more pleasant to carve with then deep in the water... but not as efficient in contests.

Thin for fun, boxy for work :-)

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colas said..

JeanG said..
I am quite confused by the tendency of pros to use thick rails on some of their boards.

Pros want to win their heats, that's all. So they will favor design features that will enable them to score points in the current system.

From what I understand, boxy rails carry more speed in turns, and are much more tolerant, allowing the pros to recover better from extreme manoeuvers, minimizing the chance of falling by catching a rail that would kill their score. Thus boxy rails are adapted to the style of surfing the judges seem to favor: just gathering speed for one wham-bam big move. Carving turns wont score you as much points currently, and require very good waves, not your average contest wave.

high volume and/or boxy rails can be high performance. Well shaped high volume rails give you the feeling of having your board on "ball bearings" in turns: the board glides through the turn on their rails without losing speed. Plain round rails will slow your boards in turns however. Thin rails give you more control, and are more pleasant to carve with then deep in the water... but not as efficient in contests.

Thin for fun, boxy for work :-)

Okay, that makes sense, and I think that I understand. Thank you.

Given that they prefer fat rails for their own reasons, what is the reason for using a flat deck vs domed on pro boards? Won't a domed deck make it easier to control the board - more leverage directly underfoot.

Another question (don't mind me, I'm like a child with unending questions): Why does the board he rides in this video have a flat deck? He's carving properly, and harder, than anyone I've ever seen. Seems like a great place to take the free volume of a domed deck, or to narrow the rails for even better carving performance:

Skip to :40 to skip intro.

?t=3m35s

In the video, I think interesting moments are the ones like:



For me, they need design features that minimize the risk of falling on such extreme moves. My guess is the flat deck makes your feet closer to the water, and a more constistent feel when moving your feet around...
On rails, they do not need thin rails to be able to dig their rails deep, but boxy rails may be more fault-tolerant and keep more speed in turns. But it is only a guess, only a pro could tell for sure.

Plus, his boards have so little volume overall that even boxy, their rails are not too high volume anyways...

This is interesting. I like your explanation, it's nice to finally have something that makes sense.

Patrice shapes these world cup boards too?

At the pro level, does he put surfers on boards with volume = body weight? A 75kg surfer on 75L board? Looks like that's what some of these guys are doing, or even lower.

Anything to win, I suppose, but were it me I might want just a few extra liters at least.

IMO they are not designing boards around rail thickness, whether it be production or comp boards. They are a bi product of the shape, width and thickness of the board. They would be putting more thought into rail shape, i.e. 50/50, 60/40 etc, than thickness.

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JeanG said..
Patrice shapes these world cup boards too?

At the pro level, does he put surfers on boards with volume = body weight? A 75kg surfer on 75L board? Looks like that's what some of these guys are doing, or even lower.

Not really. He doesnt pay pro riders, some Gong riders are at most regional amateurs. So they still need some volume not to fall, be able to position to gain priorities, and not be exhausted after one heat, especially since regional contest are seldom run in clean waves... Patrice think that it is more fun for the non-pro riders to reduce the length than the volume.

They are on boards with +15 / +25 liters of volume, here are some vids of the Gong Riders that enter contests:

Flo, 1m87 82kg on a 6'10" x 27 1/8" x 99l board Just before a heat:


Some pics in a heat:
www.gong-galaxy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79514

The other rider, 72kg same 6'10" 99l board first steps on his new board:


on an onshore heat (in yellow), with a 7'8" x 25 9/16" 95l board


As you can see, international pros are on another planet ability-wise, and can manage sinking toothpicks, but not regional contestants.

As an aside I tried once a 100l board for my 100kg, on a glassy 4ft Hossegor. Doable, but I actually surfed like ****, because all my stamina and focus was spent paddling to take the wave, so once on the wave I was exhausted. I think you need a lot of training before "volume = body weight" are worth it.

Flo, 82kg, on his 6'10" x 27 1/8" x 99l during the French championships in Hossegor:

Great discussion! Friend of mine commented on the very blocky rails on King's pro Daniel Hughes ting board. Short low volume boards ridden in garbage can not catch rails if you are a pro!

Yes indeed this is a great discussion, back from barreling eight foot surf on my 6'9 , this my idea to thinner the rail of those boards.