A quick question for the Wing foiler experts here:
For given board volume, what dimension would you maximize to make a board more stable during the water start phase: width, thickness or length?
Thanks!
For water starts, thickness most important. Getting a board that doesn't sink is first order of biz. There was a formula, take weight in kilos and add 30. This might be a little generous, maybe even specific to the type of board. The board I have now is so corky, don't even need to knee start. I'm 90 kgs, ride a 120 liter. For this wing specific board, +15 might be fine.
Select to expand quotePasquales said..
For water starts, thickness most important. Getting a board that doesn't sink is first order of biz. There was a formula, take weight in kilos and add 30. This might be a little generous, maybe even specific to the type of board. The board I have now is so corky, don't even need to knee start. I'm 90 kgs, ride a 120 liter. For this wing specific board, +15 might be fine.
You have to decide what is most important to you, you can have a small board with lots of volume that will float well but be hard to get up on foil because it has a low surface area and pushes lots of water to get going ( even though it floats well ) once on foil it's great.
Or you can have the same or less volume spread over a wider/ longer board which has a larger surface area and gets on the foil very easy, but is not as good on foil because more swing weight and size.
There are so many choices in size/ volume out there now, once you decide on what's most important to you, Im sure there is a board to suit.Sorry I didn't just say go buy x board but depends on local wind strengths,what size wing you like to use , weather your on flat water or the surf and how much experience you've had.
For me stability is more about width.. You can go as thick as you like but if it's not wide enough it's still tippy.
Thank you all for the replies.
For context, I (80kg, 1,80m, based on Oahu) been building my own boards for over 10 years and hydrofoils for about a year now. I started my foil journey with kite-foiling about 18 months ago on a 4'6" and very quickly scaled down to a 42" pocket board. Moved on to prone foiling about 9 months ago, starting on a 5'6" and moved to 4'6" after 8-10 sessions. Now, I am about to start wing foiling and don't want history to repeat itself, so making something that I won't outgrow in a month or two would be ideal. I am fine if the first 4-6 sessions suck.
My main goal is to go in waves, and maybe do some downwinders. What made me shape shorter kitefoil and pronefoil boards was their "excessive" length, I just hated having so much board in front of me. So for this wingboard, I am considering building a board in the 5 feet range, but with ample volume (in the 90-95L), to follow the weight +10-15L rule. My hydrofoil front wing (under construction) is 1850cm2 (based on Armstrong's new HS1850 model).
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
Select to expand quoteMokuleia said..
T
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
I think I'd focus on trying to squeeze the required volume on a maximum width of 25". Width will always be a limiting factor when carving so IMO boards should be as narrow as possible.
Select to expand quotekobo said..Pasquales said..
For water starts, thickness most important. Getting a board that doesn't sink is first order of biz. There was a formula, take weight in kilos and add 30. This might be a little generous, maybe even specific to the type of board. The board I have now is so corky, don't even need to knee start. I'm 90 kgs, ride a 120 liter. For this wing specific board, +15 might be fine.
You have to decide what is most important to you, you can have a small board with lots of volume that will float well but be hard to get up on foil because it has a low surface area and pushes lots of water to get going ( even though it floats well ) once on foil it's great.
Or you can have the same or less volume spread over a wider/ longer board which has a larger surface area and gets on the foil very easy, but is not as good on foil because more swing weight and size.
There are so many choices in size/ volume out there now, once you decide on what's most important to you, Im sure there is a board to suit.Sorry I didn't just say go buy x board but depends on local wind strengths,what size wing you like to use , weather your on flat water or the surf and how much experience you've had.
Kobo, I thought a smaller board pumps onto the foil alot easier than a bigger potentially heavier board. Taking pumping rather than glide/inertia to get on foil. Different but equally effective but perhaps more technical and physical?
Select to expand quoteMokuleia said..
Thank you all for the replies.
For context, I (80kg, 1,80m, based on Oahu) been building my own boards for over 10 years and hydrofoils for about a year now. I started my foil journey with kite-foiling about 18 months ago on a 4'6" and very quickly scaled down to a 42" pocket board. Moved on to prone foiling about 9 months ago, starting on a 5'6" and moved to 4'6" after 8-10 sessions. Now, I am about to start wing foiling and don't want history to repeat itself, so making something that I won't outgrow in a month or two would be ideal. I am fine if the first 4-6 sessions suck.
My main goal is to go in waves, and maybe do some downwinders. What made me shape shorter kitefoil and pronefoil boards was their "excessive" length, I just hated having so much board in front of me. So for this wingboard, I am considering building a board in the 5 feet range, but with ample volume (in the 90-95L), to follow the weight +10-15L rule. My hydrofoil front wing (under construction) is 1850cm2 (based on Armstrong's new HS1850 model).
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
Too wide. All I do is wing boards today. It consumes all my production capacity. 4'10 x 26 x thickness to hit 87-90 liters. Skip the deck handle. Not needed.
Select to expand quoteLivit said..Mokuleia said..
T
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
I think I'd focus on trying to squeeze the required volume on a maximum width of 25". Width will always be a limiting factor when carving so IMO boards should be as narrow as possible.
I agree with this. Over 25" is too wide. Going upwind against chop, it will be hard to tilt board much if too wide unless you use really long masts like the gong crew.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..Mokuleia said..
Thank you all for the replies.
For context, I (80kg, 1,80m, based on Oahu) been building my own boards for over 10 years and hydrofoils for about a year now. I started my foil journey with kite-foiling about 18 months ago on a 4'6" and very quickly scaled down to a 42" pocket board. Moved on to prone foiling about 9 months ago, starting on a 5'6" and moved to 4'6" after 8-10 sessions. Now, I am about to start wing foiling and don't want history to repeat itself, so making something that I won't outgrow in a month or two would be ideal. I am fine if the first 4-6 sessions suck.
My main goal is to go in waves, and maybe do some downwinders. What made me shape shorter kitefoil and pronefoil boards was their "excessive" length, I just hated having so much board in front of me. So for this wingboard, I am considering building a board in the 5 feet range, but with ample volume (in the 90-95L), to follow the weight +10-15L rule. My hydrofoil front wing (under construction) is 1850cm2 (based on Armstrong's new HS1850 model).
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
Too wide. All I do is wing boards today. It consumes all my production capacity. 4'10 x 26 x thickness to hit 87-90 liters. Skip the deck handle. Not needed.
Something I did not mentioned was that I will be starting with a 5m2 wing (probably Duotone Unit) and sail only on windy days over 15 knots.
Thanks for the intel! I was also thinking width could be reduce a bit. Will go with 26". Now volume is 88L, which should be good enough. Also, Good point about deck handle, I will go with only one on bottom.
Since we are at the design stage, what do you guys think of foil track placement vs. back foot strap? I seems to me the foil track is maybe a little far forward (or strap too far back).
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..kobo said..Pasquales said..
For water starts, thickness most important. Getting a board that doesn't sink is first order of biz. There was a formula, take weight in kilos and add 30. This might be a little generous, maybe even specific to the type of board. The board I have now is so corky, don't even need to knee start. I'm 90 kgs, ride a 120 liter. For this wing specific board, +15 might be fine.
You have to decide what is most important to you, you can have a small board with lots of volume that will float well but be hard to get up on foil because it has a low surface area and pushes lots of water to get going ( even though it floats well ) once on foil it's great.
Or you can have the same or less volume spread over a wider/ longer board which has a larger surface area and gets on the foil very easy, but is not as good on foil because more swing weight and size.
There are so many choices in size/ volume out there now, once you decide on what's most important to you, Im sure there is a board to suit.Sorry I didn't just say go buy x board but depends on local wind strengths,what size wing you like to use , weather your on flat water or the surf and how much experience you've had.
Kobo, I thought a smaller board pumps onto the foil alot easier than a bigger potentially heavier board. Taking pumping rather than glide/inertia to get on foil. Different but equally effective but perhaps more technical and physical?
Yep you are right laninca , a small board especially with straps and good wind and right size sail will pump up nice and easy, that's why I wanted to know what conditions he generally sails in and also skill level helps too.But a lightweight larger board with a lot of surface area will get up in light wind , where the small one won't even have a chance especially if the rider is inexperienced.
Have more info now 15 kns+ 5m wing and 80 kg and fairly quick learner = easy on 6' 27wide 100ltr board
moderate = 5' 24 wide 75 lts board , advanced = 4'8 22 wide 55lts board.
Select to expand quoteMokuleia said..DWF said..Mokuleia said..
Thank you all for the replies.
For context, I (80kg, 1,80m, based on Oahu) been building my own boards for over 10 years and hydrofoils for about a year now. I started my foil journey with kite-foiling about 18 months ago on a 4'6" and very quickly scaled down to a 42" pocket board. Moved on to prone foiling about 9 months ago, starting on a 5'6" and moved to 4'6" after 8-10 sessions. Now, I am about to start wing foiling and don't want history to repeat itself, so making something that I won't outgrow in a month or two would be ideal. I am fine if the first 4-6 sessions suck.
My main goal is to go in waves, and maybe do some downwinders. What made me shape shorter kitefoil and pronefoil boards was their "excessive" length, I just hated having so much board in front of me. So for this wingboard, I am considering building a board in the 5 feet range, but with ample volume (in the 90-95L), to follow the weight +10-15L rule. My hydrofoil front wing (under construction) is 1850cm2 (based on Armstrong's new HS1850 model).
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
Too wide. All I do is wing boards today. It consumes all my production capacity. 4'10 x 26 x thickness to hit 87-90 liters. Skip the deck handle. Not needed.
Something I did not mentioned was that I will be starting with a 5m2 wing (probably Duotone Unit) and sail only on windy days over 15 knots.
Thanks for the intel! I was also thinking width could be reduce a bit. Will go with 26". Now volume is 88L, which should be good enough. Also, Good point about deck handle, I will go with only one on bottom.
Since we are at the design stage, what do you guys think of foil track placement vs. back foot strap? I seems to me the foil track is maybe a little far forward (or strap too far back).
I would never place my foot behind the mast center. Because we are wind powered, you're more likely to be standing slightly forward of where you would prone surf foiling.
So centered over mast, is my far back rear foot position. unless you ride a foil that behaves different than most. There are a few foils that need to be abnormally forward, or rear foot way back.
There is also a bit of personal style involved. I have a GoFoil Team rider on my board at 210 lbs, who never puts his foot behind the mast, meanwhile Alex Ageura always has his foot way behind center.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..Mokuleia said..DWF said..Mokuleia said..
Thank you all for the replies.
For context, I (80kg, 1,80m, based on Oahu) been building my own boards for over 10 years and hydrofoils for about a year now. I started my foil journey with kite-foiling about 18 months ago on a 4'6" and very quickly scaled down to a 42" pocket board. Moved on to prone foiling about 9 months ago, starting on a 5'6" and moved to 4'6" after 8-10 sessions. Now, I am about to start wing foiling and don't want history to repeat itself, so making something that I won't outgrow in a month or two would be ideal. I am fine if the first 4-6 sessions suck.
My main goal is to go in waves, and maybe do some downwinders. What made me shape shorter kitefoil and pronefoil boards was their "excessive" length, I just hated having so much board in front of me. So for this wingboard, I am considering building a board in the 5 feet range, but with ample volume (in the 90-95L), to follow the weight +10-15L rule. My hydrofoil front wing (under construction) is 1850cm2 (based on Armstrong's new HS1850 model).
Current version of the wing board is 4'10" by 28" and 4.75" thick, for 95L (based on Gong's Lemon model). What do you guys think about this design? If I were to drop some liters down to 90L, should I reduce width or thickness (thus the title of this post)?
Too wide. All I do is wing boards today. It consumes all my production capacity. 4'10 x 26 x thickness to hit 87-90 liters. Skip the deck handle. Not needed.
Something I did not mentioned was that I will be starting with a 5m2 wing (probably Duotone Unit) and sail only on windy days over 15 knots.
Thanks for the intel! I was also thinking width could be reduce a bit. Will go with 26". Now volume is 88L, which should be good enough. Also, Good point about deck handle, I will go with only one on bottom.
Since we are at the design stage, what do you guys think of foil track placement vs. back foot strap? I seems to me the foil track is maybe a little far forward (or strap too far back).
I would never place my foot behind the mast center. Because we are wind powered, you're more likely to be standing slightly forward of where you would prone surf foiling.
So centered over mast, is my far back rear foot position. unless you ride a foil that behaves different than most. There are a few foils that need to be abnormally forward, or rear foot way back.
There is also a bit of personal style involved. I have a GoFoil Team rider on my board at 210 lbs, who never puts his foot behind the mast, meanwhile Alex Ageura always has his foot way behind center.
Thanks for the feedback. Based on the design of the board, would you move all inserts forward and just the tracks back? Maybe a little bit of both?
Attached is the version with only the track moved back.
FYI, you can cut weight by doing just 3 front inserts. You don't need side by side inserts to make the front Y pattern setup.
Windsurfers in the old days, ran a single screw through both front straps. You cut the neoprene off the bottom strap. Stacking the straps allows your front foot to be closer to center, when in the strap, while still having the Y setup for either foot forward. It's how I do my boards. It used to be the hard core setup for wave riding boards in the old days. Today windsurf boards are wider, so not done anymore. For us, it's still a good idea.
Good point about the inserts. I am still not sure what the final layout will look like. A single strap near center but at a slight angle looks promising for what I want to do (wave), but not very optimum to ride back out in switch stance, except if the strap is loose. Having the front foot strap dead one center line with no angle would satisfy pretty much all riding options: natural in wave, switch and even toe side and could be also more appropriate during the learning phase.
So many options!?!
Not sure if mast position is a good reference for designing where inserts go.
Correct me if i am wrong,i am no shaper :)
In sailing mode i want the board to be as fast as possible with my front foot in the strap(not nosing in or taildragging) ready to pump in a gust.So volume distribution/rocker should determine strap insert position.
In foiling mode i want my weight evenly distributed on both feet,so they should straddle the foil center of lift.This should determine foil track position.
So where is foil center of lift?.
My guesstimate is about 1/3 of the chord from front wing leading edge,about where the max thickness is??? ,maybe someone has more knowledge on this?.
Mast position relative to center of pressure is going to change from one manufacturer to the other,although they are all probably in the same ballpark and mast track should allow necessary corrections.
Aw-right, the baby monster is done!
I decided to go with 4'10 x 26 x 4.75 at 85L. Board was done with 2# EPS and carbon fiber (vacuum laminated), 2x 5.7oz top plus patches under feet and 1x 5.7oz bottom plus 3 patches over foil tracks (future fin). It came out relatively light at 13lbs/6kg. I could not find a kick pad wide enough to my liking so I ended up 3D printing one and vacuum laminated it.
Below are some pictures of the boards and building process, along with pictures of my new home-made 1800cm front wing based on Armstrong's HS1850. I will add details later about manufacturing of the wing and other foil parts in the "DYI tail wings/stabs" thread previously created by wicka.
Took it out couple days ago for my first ever wing foiling session in Kailua. Wind was rather irregular and a little light (11-13 knots) for my Unit 5m (the one with the broken valve ;-). Also I did not use foot straps and the mast was probably too far back. Got up on foil briefly but need practicing pumping the foil and the wing efficiently. Did a bunch of walk of shame too (6 in over 2.5 hours to be exact). The good news is that once I am up with the wing but not foiling, the board floats me nicely, so volume is just fine for me. Only one regret for now, the carry handle on the back is too far forward and the board tip over quite a bit. Not a big deal for short walks but a PIA for walks of shame.
Family portrait: new 38" kite-foil board, old 4'6" kite-foil board (will probably use for tow-in), 4'6" surf-foil board and the 4'10" wing foil board
Nicely done man. Thanks for documenting this too. I'll be making a step down soon I'll bet and this info helps a ton. Did you glass over inserts? Anything special about putting this in or just route the eps?
Wow that is so cool to be able to make your own boards !
Can you publish a book on how to get started with all the gear ;-)
Select to expand quotesurfcowboy said..
Nicely done man. Thanks for documenting this too. I'll be making a step down soon I'll bet and this info helps a ton. Did you glass over inserts? Anything special about putting this in or just route the eps?
Thanks man. I just routed the glassed board and dropped these inserts in with epoxy.
First time I am using metal inserts. Will see how they last over time with corrosion. Might add some copper anti-seize lub. inside all inserts to be on the safe side. Select to expand quoteAlysum said..
Wow that is so cool to be able to make your own boards !
Can you publish a book on how to get started with all the gear ;-)
Youtube is your friend. That's how I learned anyway.
Thx man. Makes it easier doing it post glassing since you can test your stance but I always assumed they'd be glassed in for strength. But yes, don't assume, right? Def need to add front straps to my own diy board before long.
Brag post backatcha :-) Just finished this DIY homage to Fanatic Sky Wing Board. 5'x23"x5.5", guessing 70L or so. First try on this yesterday, was super relieved when it floated me on the knee start, up and riding quick. It works! Once up, it felt like my surf foil board, responsiveness and little swing weight. So, for wing foiling at least, I think the short and fat formula is a winner.
Question: would the same formula work for surf foils? EG if a 4' board is fun to ride but tough to paddle, would a 4'x20x4" gain enough paddling capability to make it doable while still keeping the short board benefits?
