Hi all, a couple of questions about replacing winches - keen to hear of anyone's experience on these things.
I bought a 1984/85 Raven 31 (fractional rigged NZ sloop) back in January, which needed a couple of things fixed ... a couple became a few, a few became a lot, a lot became kinda everything :) Anyway 9 months in and I've come a fair way, but still more to do.
I'm looking at the winches. They are old, possibly original, 2 speed, non-self tailing Barlow winches. A previous owner has added Barton Winchers to them, which I've only just read up on this weekend - and have yet to try out as advised, ie with the sheet fully stacked on the drum so it creates friction on the underside of the rubber. It might work fine.
But I've been thinking about replacing with new self tailing winches.
Couple of questions I'm working through -
1. Brands. Looking at Lewmar, Harken etc, they are obviously pretty pricey. Clive Daniels who has done some of the shipwright work on the boat suggested I look at Hutton/Arco here in Sydney. I've read a bunch of forum posts which were mostly complimentary about the quality and also the service. They look significantly cheaper than the big name brands. And also there is the suggestion of trade in deals on my old winches. However, it sounds like it might be a fairly small company, and I'm just wondering if anyone knows about them, and will they be around for service, warranty etc into the future? Or any other thoughts about this brand? Bearing in mind that a pair of big name brand winches could end up costing me something like 15-20% of what I paid for the whole boat, so cost is a consideration :)
2. Sizing. Looking at various websites and trying to figure out what size winch I need, the consensus seemed to be that a 31 footer should have size 40 primary winches. But, the existing winches are marked "25" as per the photos. My boat is fractional rigged and I've just fitted a new furling 150% genoa, which is 24.33 square metres. The Hutton/Arco website mentioned for fractional rigged boats, use the genoa size to select winch size. Hutton selection guide says winch size 20 for up to 28 square metre genoa - which is in line with the 25's already fitted. The smallest 2 speed self tailer on the Hutton website is size 30 ($880 before trade in), which should be ample if all the above is true, so maybe this is what I'd go for.
But, nothing else I've read would suggest a winch that small. I haven't yet had the new genoa up in anything other than light breeze so it's hard to tell whether the current winches feel under specced. Any advice from more experienced sailors on this would be much appreciated! What size would you go for all things considered?
thanks in advance!
Steve
It's possible that Hutton Arco have self tailing conversion kits for your existing units. Prices are in usd that's something to watch. I would be giving them a ring
Hutton have a good rep over many years for making rock-solid winches. Not so favoured by the racing types as they are not the lightest.
From memory, they also support Barient and Barlow as they bought up the entire stock of parts when Barlow stopped, and they also make up new parts from scratch in their machine shop.
One can never say that a company will be there in X years time, but they have been around a long time so far. As I understand it, they genuinely offer a lifetime guarantee on their winches - if you break a part in ordinary usage, they'll replace it.
They also take old winches as trade ins on new ones.
I approached them recently about my winches. I have older: 2 x Arco 65s, 2 x Arco 55s, and 4 x 30s/40s, all self tailing using the old rubber collars.
I asked them about conversion of my winches to all metal self tailing
Advice I got in a prompt reply from Allen Hutton was as follows:
--- begin excerpt---
Standard winches can be converted to self tailing. [Or] You can trade these in on new Hutton self tailing.
2 x Hutton 40st $1030.00 $2060.00 + GST $2266.00
Trade ins, 2 x Arco 40 std $150.00 each $ 300.00
Total changeover $1966.00
Conversion of Arco 30/40 rubber to self tailing:
Conversion 30-40 rubber to metal jaws $480.00
Strip polish and re-chrome the drum, top jaw & rope guide $330.00
Total $810.00 + GST $891.00.
New Hutton 40st $1030.00 + GST = $1133.00
Meaning the difference between converting your winch and buying new is $242.00 [per winch].
The trade in on you rubber jaw 40st is $250.00,
So in fact if you buy new, you are in front by $8.00 [compared to costs of converting/refurbishing existing winch].
Todays 60st can be ordered in 60:1 or 66:1.
To convert your 55/65st to metal is $1340.00
To strip, polish and re-chrome, the drum, top jaw and rope guide is $ 740.00
Total [per winch for conversion/refurb] $2080.00 + GST = $2288.00
A New Hutton 60/66st is $3000.00 + GST $3300.00.
The difference is $1012.00.
We can offer a trade-in on your 55/65 of $600.00 each. Meaning new winch would be a difference of $412.00 each [compared to costs of conversion/refurb].
Conversion takes time, we would need your full winches sent to us for conversion. We have to machine a number of parts in your winches, and also supply new parts. Average production time is 8-10 weeks.
Conversions are an issue, unlike making new winches, everything is a one off and therefore has to be done on a manual machines, which is costly and slow. New winches are manufactured in large batches keeping the costs down. New winches of course are all new, covered by full warranty. Unlike your old winches that are whatever age . Something for you to think about.
--- end excerpt---
So no cheap option in my case - conversion/refurb for all 8 winches would cost about $12,700 and take a couple of months with no winches on my boat (that's not happening this spring/summer!). Replacement with equivalent new Hutton winches would cost about $14,600 - only $1900 more, and much quicker turn around.
Given the size of the bill either way, I am chewing on what I may yet do, and most likely will live with my existing winches until winter next year...
Q
My Arco 40ST have a rubber lower ring. I think they work well, maybe not quite the standard of a new Harken but pretty nice. Have you you tried new collars? Hutton Arco sell them.
Select to expand quoteEastCoastSail said..
Q
My Arco 40ST have a rubber lower ring. I think they work well, maybe not quite the standard of a new Harken but pretty nice. Have you you tried new collars? Hutton Arco sell them.
Thanks, my main issue is slippage round the drum. If there's enough traction on the drum, then the rubber jaw has little pull from the rope. If the rope's slipping on the drum, however, then the load gets transferred to the rubber, which wont take much strain before it starts slipping, at which point you have to manually tailor the winch. Maximum turns around the drum helps :-)
My point in posting was to address Steve's question about cost of replacing his winches with new winches. The part of the reply I quoted from Allen Hutton gives prices for various sizes of new Hutton self tailing winches, and also some idea of trade-in value. Plus some idea of the time and cost of back to factory for refurb versus new.
Ah I missed the pricing point about US dollars. Once you take that into account they're no cheaper than Harken.
any thoughts about the winch size question? Is size 30 likely to be too small for my 24 square metre 150% Genoa, or do you think I'll be ok at that size?
Quick update after I spoke to Alan at Hutton/Arco
1. The old Barlow 25 actually has a ratio of something like 38 or 39:1, so it's not comparable to a 25 in today's parlance. He recommended the hutton 40 for my boat
2. pricing on the website in US dollars is intended for US customers - he'll quote a local price that's more competitive
The Hutton 2 speed self tailing 40's are $1030+ GST and he offered $150 trade in on my old Barlow 25's - so ends up < $1000 per winch. Seems like a pretty great deal.
Also, what a great guy. Very generous with his knowledge and time
I have 30 year old hutton/arco winches on my boat still going strong. Also have a Arco windlass from them. This year my windless started doing something different (still worked though) and I pulled it apart and found a piece that was cracked. Called up Arco and spoke to the owner. Hopped in the car and visited the workshop and had a new piece in hand with a container of grease and a few other parts. The owner gave me a tour of the workshop. It's not that small of an operation. They also specialise in making custom parts for winches such as for old large yachts all over the world. Think he mentioned that he knows of just one other workshop in the world that does it. He showed me some absolutely huge winches they were restoring for some monster size sailboat in france.
I also serviced my Arco's and they had a funny noise after. The owner was on the mobile on a weekend helping me diagnose the problem by listening over the phone.
if I was buying new winches for a boat I would be buying Hutton winches. Same with if I was buying a new windlass.
