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shaggybaxter said..
That's kinda of a cool fascination Andy.
I found one of the those serious problems today. We took a bunch of 9 x kids for a birthday sail to Peel today, all good, but came home into 30 kn on the nose. Was great for us, and a nice first exposure to sailing for the kids!
The kids were great, little freaked out, but happy freaking. Anyway.
The winds were strong enough to flip the dingy under tow, tearing both cleats out of the bow, and the start of a 40 min recovery, End result we lost the boat hook retrieving upside down inflatable, but got inflatable and outboard back, no boat hook.
It was blowing like stink, and I'd just sat down to a welcome coffee after the dinghy was safely following the boat again, when we gybed. The mainsheet was eased and as we gybed over it wrapped around the starboard wheel, crushing it as the mainsheet took up the slack.
The helm is locked of course, as some numpty wrapped a dirty great mainsheet around it. I'm lunging for the self tailer and hanging on as the boat just takes off, the locked helm's driving it onto a reach as I start dumping mainsheet.Back to the helm and a superman heave to lift the still powered up mainsheet out of the wheel before letting it dump to leeward. Panic over.
Again.
That's twice now.

That's definitely a problem with the Pogo I need to resolve, the following pic shows the problem. I drew a fake mainsheet to show the problem, the arrow shows where it bites into the wheel. The mainsheet can't be slack without it becoming a threat by potentially wrapping around the wheel when gybing. That's B.a.d. Especially 'cos it happens in heavy winds when the mainsheet is eased.



I could sheet the mainsheet all the way in first before gybing, but that's not always practical in heavy winds, the boat can power up too much.
Idea 1. I've tried bungy cord looped around the mainsheet to the bottom of the boom with not much success, I might try a variant of that idea methinks.
Idea 2. Mount a wheel guard of some description on the pedestal. Could look good, or terrible.
I'm open to ideas if anyone got a suggestion!

The positive for the day was the sail choice was new for me in those winds, full main and headsail in 30 kn, normally I'd be on staysail and a reef. She stayed well-mannered and in control. .

using a bungy cord or a similar solution may work, but it's a bit like a using gaffer tape to fix a problem...what happens in a panic, or close racing someone forgets?

Smaller wheel...? try a very small one it see if you can snag it, and progress up.

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andy59 said..

Ramona said..
Bolted my windvane back on. Replaced the Delrin bevel gears with brass and replaced the delrin oar pivot bearings with black nylon. Also the housing for the SS bearing for the small bevel gear is now in black nylon. Sun had effected the Delrin and a few teeth had chipped off the gears. Machined new pulleys as well. The nylon I bought from Cammthane in Albion Park and it's a pleasure to work with on the lathe.
www.cammthane.com.au/

That's an interesting looking setup, would you mind putting some more photos of it up. After being mesmerised by countless hours of watching my wind vane at work I've developed an unnatural fascination with all things wind vane related.

I have the same problem. I can be reading and find myself transfixed by the machine. Check out my video and see the mark 2 mod 15 version. Or this webpage for photos a few pages back. I'm Ramona there too. www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/windvane.html

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shaggybaxter said..
That's definitely a problem with the Pogo I need to resolve, the following pic shows the problem. I drew a fake mainsheet to show the problem, the arrow shows where it bites into the wheel. The mainsheet can't be slack without it becoming a threat by potentially wrapping around the wheel when gybing. That's B.a.d. Especially 'cos it happens in heavy winds when the mainsheet is eased.




I could sheet the mainsheet all the way in first before gybing, but that's not always practical in heavy winds, the boat can power up too much.
Idea 1. I've tried bungy cord looped around the mainsheet to the bottom of the boom with not much success, I might try a variant of that idea methinks.
Idea 2. Mount a wheel guard of some description on the pedestal. Could look good, or terrible.
I'm open to ideas if anyone got a suggestion!

Perhaps running a line (with clips at each end and/or one in the middle) between the port and starboard top lifelines in front of the wheel and behind the main sheet. Might prevent the loop being able to catch the leeward wheel on the gybe. Not ideal tho.

I have a similar problem as my traveller track is actually bolted to the front of the pedestal. My main is a lot smaller though, so I can hold the main sheet in my hand while doing the gybe. And my pedestal and wheel are made of Stainless Steel which helps a bit.

Took delivery of Sonata yesterday . I was hoping to sail back to Calypso Bay but far to windy for one up.
Interesting set up for backstay,
Boat was owned originally by a seasoned gent in Whitsundays who has replaced backstay chain plates with permanent bracket on transom to which the backstay is attached so that the Bimini is not impeded as well as being a rest for the mast when unstepped.
IMO all ugly and will go ,

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shaggybaxter said..
That's kinda of a cool fascination Andy.
I found one of the those serious problems today. We took a bunch of 9 x kids for a birthday sail to Peel today, all good, but came home into 30 kn on the nose. Was great for us, and a nice first exposure to sailing for the kids!
The kids were great, little freaked out, but happy freaking. Anyway.
The winds were strong enough to flip the dingy under tow, tearing both cleats out of the bow, and the start of a 40 min recovery, End result we lost the boat hook retrieving upside down inflatable, but got inflatable and outboard back, no boat hook.
It was blowing like stink, and I'd just sat down to a welcome coffee after the dinghy was safely following the boat again, when we gybed. The mainsheet was eased and as we gybed over it wrapped around the starboard wheel, crushing it as the mainsheet took up the slack.
The helm is locked of course, as some numpty wrapped a dirty great mainsheet around it. I'm lunging for the self tailer and hanging on as the boat just takes off, the locked helm's driving it onto a reach as I start dumping mainsheet.Back to the helm and a superman heave to lift the still powered up mainsheet out of the wheel before letting it dump to leeward. Panic over.
Again.
That's twice now.

That's definitely a problem with the Pogo I need to resolve, the following pic shows the problem. I drew a fake mainsheet to show the problem, the arrow shows where it bites into the wheel. The mainsheet can't be slack without it becoming a threat by potentially wrapping around the wheel when gybing. That's B.a.d. Especially 'cos it happens in heavy winds when the mainsheet is eased.



I could sheet the mainsheet all the way in first before gybing, but that's not always practical in heavy winds, the boat can power up too much.
Idea 1. I've tried bungy cord looped around the mainsheet to the bottom of the boom with not much success, I might try a variant of that idea methinks.
Idea 2. Mount a wheel guard of some description on the pedestal. Could look good, or terrible.
I'm open to ideas if anyone got a suggestion!

The positive for the day was the sail choice was new for me in those winds, full main and headsail in 30 kn, normally I'd be on staysail and a reef. She stayed well-mannered and in control. .

Short term, maybe some stops on your traveller so it can only move across the mid 50-60% of the rail to stop mainsheet looping round outer section of wheels?

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shaggybaxter said..
That's kinda of a cool fascination Andy.
I found one of the those serious problems today. We took a bunch of 9 x kids for a birthday sail to Peel today, all good, but came home into 30 kn on the nose. Was great for us, and a nice first exposure to sailing for the kids!
The kids were great, little freaked out, but happy freaking. Anyway.
The winds were strong enough to flip the dingy under tow, tearing both cleats out of the bow, and the start of a 40 min recovery, End result we lost the boat hook retrieving upside down inflatable, but got inflatable and outboard back, no boat hook.
It was blowing like stink, and I'd just sat down to a welcome coffee after the dinghy was safely following the boat again, when we gybed. The mainsheet was eased and as we gybed over it wrapped around the starboard wheel, crushing it as the mainsheet took up the slack.
The helm is locked of course, as some numpty wrapped a dirty great mainsheet around it. I'm lunging for the self tailer and hanging on as the boat just takes off, the locked helm's driving it onto a reach as I start dumping mainsheet.Back to the helm and a superman heave to lift the still powered up mainsheet out of the wheel before letting it dump to leeward. Panic over.
Again.
That's twice now.

That's definitely a problem with the Pogo I need to resolve, the following pic shows the problem. I drew a fake mainsheet to show the problem, the arrow shows where it bites into the wheel. The mainsheet can't be slack without it becoming a threat by potentially wrapping around the wheel when gybing. That's B.a.d. Especially 'cos it happens in heavy winds when the mainsheet is eased.



I could sheet the mainsheet all the way in first before gybing, but that's not always practical in heavy winds, the boat can power up too much.
Idea 1. I've tried bungy cord looped around the mainsheet to the bottom of the boom with not much success, I might try a variant of that idea methinks.
Idea 2. Mount a wheel guard of some description on the pedestal. Could look good, or terrible.
I'm open to ideas if anyone got a suggestion!

The positive for the day was the sail choice was new for me in those winds, full main and headsail in 30 kn, normally I'd be on staysail and a reef. She stayed well-mannered and in control. .

Lots of gybe preventers on the market. Also sailing with autopilot prevents gybing?

Hi Shaggy

Was today's gybe planned or accidental

From memory the last time we discussed this it had damaged the wheel

Did it do the same thing today

Regards Don

From my understanding should always pull the mainsheet in prior to the jibe from what I read it was accidental jibe due to dinghy mishap Donk.

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Donk107 said..
Hi Shaggy

Was today's gybe planned or accidental

From memory the last time we discussed this it had damaged the wheel

Did it do the same thing today

Regards Don

Hi Donk,
Planned mate. Anytime the mainsheet is eased when we gybe. And yes, shattered the wheel again.
South, yes, not sheeting in the main is the cause. But that's the issue, sheeting in the main in heavy airs powers the boat up and increases the chance of a broach.

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shaggybaxter said..

Donk107 said..
Hi Shaggy

Was today's gybe planned or accidental

From memory the last time we discussed this it had damaged the wheel

Did it do the same thing today

Regards Don

Hi Donk,
Planned mate. Anytime the mainsheet is eased when we gybe. And yes, shattered the wheel again.
South, yes, not sheeting in the main is the cause. But that's the issue, sheeting in the main in heavy airs powers the boat up and increases the chance of a broach.

Hi Shaggy

Just so i understand are you gybing because you want to change direction or because of a change in wind direction

When you say that pulling on the main during the gybe powers the boat up i assume that you are not heading dead down wind when you gybe

If you are gybing without pulling the main on and then easing it after completing the gybe ther main must come across with a hell of a bang

Regards Don

It's a two man job,helmsman and mainsheet hand. If your doing it solo with that rig and yacht design in those conditions a jibe is going to cause extreme worry to any able skipper. Personaly I just like to hit the auto pilot so I can sort out the drama with the kids/dinghy and then handle the main through the jybe after that. I think if it's a racer /cruiser you should have a awesome auto pilot and a jybe preventer.

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Bananabender said..
Took delivery of Sonata yesterday . I was hoping to sail back to Calypso Bay but far to windy for one up.
Interesting set up for backstay,
Boat was owned originally by a seasoned gent in Whitsundays who has replaced backstay chain plates with permanent bracket on transom to which the backstay is attached so that the Bimini is not impeded as well as being a rest for the mast when unstepped.
IMO all ugly and will go ,

I agree with you mate. That backstay "bracket" looks ugly and I think dangerous.

If you retore to original chain plates for the back stay and maybe move the bimini forward a bit, I think all will be well with the world.

Congrats on the new boat.

Shaggy, I remember that mainsheet nearly ripping my arm off when I tried to ease it through a gybe on the trip north. Just that once taught me to stay away from it.

Do you think that maybe an adjustable boom brake would help?? Also have you talked with the Pogo people about it?

Hi Bananabender

On the previous boat i used to race on the split backstay ran through slots the bimini fabric and when we used to race we would just bring the frames together and put a couple of velcro straps around the top to hold it together and get it out of the way (the back stay adjustment still worked in this position)

After the race we would remove the velcro straps and it had a couple of ropes on the back that would clip down to the pushpit rail and a couple on the front that would clip down to pad eyes on the deck

It also had a joining piece that would zip in between the rear of the dodger and the front of the bimini to completely shade the cockpit

Regards Don

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shaggybaxter said..
That's kinda of a cool fascination Andy.
I found one of the those serious problems today. We took a bunch of 9 x kids for a birthday sail to Peel today, all good, but came home into 30 kn on the nose. Was great for us, and a nice first exposure to sailing for the kids!
The kids were great, little freaked out, but happy freaking. Anyway.
The winds were strong enough to flip the dingy under tow, tearing both cleats out of the bow, and the start of a 40 min recovery, End result we lost the boat hook retrieving upside down inflatable, but got inflatable and outboard back, no boat hook.
It was blowing like stink, and I'd just sat down to a welcome coffee after the dinghy was safely following the boat again, when we gybed. The mainsheet was eased and as we gybed over it wrapped around the starboard wheel, crushing it as the mainsheet took up the slack.
The helm is locked of course, as some numpty wrapped a dirty great mainsheet around it. I'm lunging for the self tailer and hanging on as the boat just takes off, the locked helm's driving it onto a reach as I start dumping mainsheet.Back to the helm and a superman heave to lift the still powered up mainsheet out of the wheel before letting it dump to leeward. Panic over.
Again.
That's twice now.

That's definitely a problem with the Pogo I need to resolve, the following pic shows the problem. I drew a fake mainsheet to show the problem, the arrow shows where it bites into the wheel. The mainsheet can't be slack without it becoming a threat by potentially wrapping around the wheel when gybing. That's B.a.d. Especially 'cos it happens in heavy winds when the mainsheet is eased.



I could sheet the mainsheet all the way in first before gybing, but that's not always practical in heavy winds, the boat can power up too much.
Idea 1. I've tried bungy cord looped around the mainsheet to the bottom of the boom with not much success, I might try a variant of that idea methinks.
Idea 2. Mount a wheel guard of some description on the pedestal. Could look good, or terrible.
I'm open to ideas if anyone got a suggestion!

The positive for the day was the sail choice was new for me in those winds, full main and headsail in 30 kn, normally I'd be on staysail and a reef. She stayed well-mannered and in control. .

If that boat was a workshop work safe would close it down with a set up like that above for a start its strip hazzade
and that only the deck floor



with some slide out davits

I remember the time we did a controlled jibe on the adams 52 race boat I skippered ....took the runner back stay with the jibe and the crew cranked on the main after the jybe some how chewing up the spectra running backstay rolling swell out the back of Whitsunday islands if he just let it be after the jybe everything would have been fine...I think some how he thought we needed to go back up wind so he started sheeting on! I coped the Blame!

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southace said..
I remember the time we did a controlled jibe on the adams 52 race boat I skippered ....took the runner back stay with the jibe and the crew cranked on the main after the jybe some how chewing up the spectra running backstay rolling swell out the back of Whitsunday islands if he just let it be after the jybe everything would have been fine...I think some how he thought we needed to go back up wind so he started sheeting on! I coped the Blame!

I just believe it is not working make it user friendly and safe. nothing stays the same other wise we be still paddling bar wire canoes

Thanks Cisco and thanks for your suggestion . I knew you Gents would have an answer. Between yourself and Don I have sensible alternatives if I want to retain the Bimini.

Shaggy Id email the POGO designers and tell them the scenario they make a good boat so id same they would welcome the input to refine the design and should get back to you with some design ideas alteratives

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HG02 said..
Shaggy Id email the POGO designers and tell them the scenario they make a good boat so id same they would welcome the input to refine the design and should get back to you with some design ideas alteratives

Hi HG

I wonder if the layout of the boat was originally designed around a tiller and with the tiller it wouldn't be an issue but when wheels are specified the problem occurs

It would be interesting to hear Pogo's thoughts on it

Regards Don

Thx all for input, I appreciate the fresh set of eyes.
HG02, good suggestion , I just sent off a mail, thx.
Donk, yep, I reckon you're right, it is a tiller boat suffering growing pains from a wheel conversion. None of this would be an issue with the tiller version. The boom going across is quite controlled in the gybe, ie: it's not bad. As long as I don't wrap the mainsheet around the helm on the way through
South, yes, the preventer's weird but can act as a brake, but I don't normally need it. I agree on the autopilot, I wish I had've known this years ago.
I might look at a variant in what EC suggested, a simple rope lashing down low between the pedestal and the side of the cockpit. that would act as a preventer, and would be out of the way. Mmm. I hate drilling holes unless it's really necessary.

Bananabender, congrats on the new boat! And yes, get rid of that godawful bracket.

Cisco, yes, the traveller is THE line that deserves the most attention, it's frightening when out of the locks. All the new crew only ever leave it unlocked once

The pogo with the tiller in the earlier post is the one which was the original design, obviously, while your wheel steering and raised cabin end relegated the traveller into that awful slot between the cabin end and the two wheel pedestals.
Wonder, why did the design was changed? And why so inconveniently? To me is a clear sign of cost saving and thoughtlessness. Why on earth put wheels on it in the first place???
The position of the helm looks cramped, narrow and restrictive. Did one ever loose balance, threatening with a fall over the life lines?

In earlier fotos this bad feature doesn't show up this clear until you published the 'side on' foto but being a tiller person l always found the wheels, most wheels, awkward, say the least.
I am sorry Shaggy, that you were the experimental rabbit.
Wonder, will the builder of the pogos admit the shortcoming of this parts and replace the shattered wheel for you, free of charge?
And change the design!? They should.

As far as the dinghy-towing is concerned, well, you should know it by now.

Towing anything except a fishing line - let alone an inflatable with a motor attached - is a NO NO NO don't do it! Ever. Not a foot. Never.
Pogo got a wide fore deck to boot.

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sirgallivant said..
The pogo with the tiller in the earlier post is the one which was the original design, obviously, while your wheel steering and raised cabin end relegated the traveller into that awful slot between the cabin end and the two wheel pedestals.
Wonder, why did the design was changed? And why so inconveniently? To me is a clear sign of cost saving and thoughtlessness. Why on earth put wheels on it in the first place???
The position of the helm looks cramped, narrow and restrictive. Did one ever loose balance, threatening with a fall over the life lines?

In earlier fotos this bad feature doesn't show up this clear until you published the 'side on' foto but being a tiller person l always found the wheels, most wheels, awkward, say the least.
I am sorry Shaggy, that you were the experimental rabbit.
Wonder, will the builder of the pogos admit the shortcoming of this parts and replace the shattered wheel for you, free of charge?
And change the design!? They should.

As far as the dinghy-towing is concerned, well, you should know it by now.

Towing anything except a fishing line - let alone an inflatable with a motor attached - is a NO NO NO don't do it! Ever. Not a foot. Never.
Pogo got a wide fore deck to boot.

I thought i might have been the only one who saw several more serious problems with the actions taken.
All you people on here that are so safety conscious why is Sir Gallivant the only one who has even mentioned any of the faults.

30 knots admitting it was blowing hard on the nose.
Towing a dinghy.
Experimenting with carrying more sail then ever previously in this breeze.
All with 9 kids being introduced to sailing on board.

Doesn't sound like the smartest decision to me.
You want to go experimenting in those conditions you don't do it with 9 new to sailing kids on board. What if this did scare them and now they have been lost to sailing forever.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
The pogo with the tiller in the earlier post is the one which was the original design, obviously, while your wheel steering and raised cabin end relegated the traveller into that awful slot between the cabin end and the two wheel pedestals.
Wonder, why did the design was changed? And why so inconveniently? To me is a clear sign of cost saving and thoughtlessness. Why on earth put wheels on it in the first place???
The position of the helm looks cramped, narrow and restrictive. Did one ever loose balance, threatening with a fall over the life lines?

In earlier fotos this bad feature doesn't show up this clear until you published the 'side on' foto but being a tiller person l always found the wheels, most wheels, awkward, say the least.
I am sorry Shaggy, that you were the experimental rabbit.
Wonder, will the builder of the pogos admit the shortcoming of this parts and replace the shattered wheel for you, free of charge?
And change the design!? They should.

As far as the dinghy-towing is concerned, well, you should know it by now.

Towing anything except a fishing line - let alone an inflatable with a motor attached - is a NO NO NO don't do it! Ever. Not a foot. Never.
Pogo got a wide fore deck to boot.

G'day SG,
I am a tiller guy too, so there was a lot of debate about the wheels. What tipped it was two things:
1) this is my co-owner's first boat, he's much happier with wheels than tillers, and;
2) the boat is used for corporate days, where we take clients out, and the interaction for people who've never sailed before is much easier with a wheel compared to a tiller.
So, it's a trade-off thing to be sure. SG is right, there are negatives with wheel position's on such a wide boat, and the reason you can't run a single wheel, you'd never reach the bloody thing. Even the weight, there's 300kgs in those two simple supports. Position is a lot further back and more outboard than most, so it looks for all the world like you'd be uncomfortable in extreme seas.
Having said that, the wheels are very comfortable to stand or sit. I've lost balance once, beating to windward in 40kn and really big seas. Even at max heel it's surprisingly comfortable. Sitting down, you're snug in the corner and could sit there all day.
I wasn't the first guinea pig SG, there are over half of the 12.50's with wheels, and we were hull #35. I have pushed it back to Pogo though for their input, it is silly and dangerous and to me a design flaw, it mars otherwise a really great boat.

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twodogs1969 said..

I thought i might have been the only one who saw several more serious problems with the actions taken.
All you people on here that are so safety conscious why is Sir Gallivant the only one who has even mentioned any of the faults.

30 knots admitting it was blowing hard on the nose.
Towing a dinghy.
Experimenting with carrying more sail then ever previously in this breeze.
All with 9 kids being introduced to sailing on board.

Doesn't sound like the smartest decision to me.
You want to go experimenting in those conditions you don't do it with 9 new to sailing kids on board. What if this did scare them and now they have been lost to sailing forever.

G'day Twodogs,
Thx for the comments, I'll try and break down my response for you. I know its sounds on paper like I was being partially irresponsible, but I can assure you I am extremely careful when sailing, more so when I am in charge of kids or newbies. I would respectfully suggest people need to be there if you want to state the actions taken were bad/irresponsible.

30 knots going to windward is nothing in that boat. You are standing unassisted in the cockpit in those wind conditions. All the kids were seated in the cockpit, they all fit on the two cockpit benches. I'd checked the weather from three different sources, we knew exactly what we were expecting, at no stage was the boat even close to being on the edge, and I spoke to an RYA instructor with 25,000 sea miles (that in Moreton Bay alone) prior about my choices that has actively sailed on the boat. The trip was logged with VMR, we had double the life-jackets for the Pob on board. I'd even gone around and tightened lifelines to YA tolerances, there wasn't much left to chance on the planning table regards safety and being sensible.

Let's be clear, there was no accidental gybing, there was no being overpowered, there was nothing wrong at any stage except admittedly I was naive about towing a dinghy. I simply painted a picture about the conditions where I have a design problem that rears it's head in heavy airs.
I apologise , I must have misrepresented the scene, it was another fun day out in heavy wind conditions. What is wrong with sailing in heavy airs if you're equipment is geared for it? Do we all have to leave kids at home, or not go out when it gets windy? I don't hang **** on people sailing in light airs, yet I feel sometimes there a sub-current of negativity amongst a lot of sailors about sailing in strong winds. Genuine question: If the equipment and crew can handle it and enjoy it what is wrong with strong winds for God's sake?

Towing a dinghy: absolutely agree in hindsight. I listened to some bad advice from some I thought would know better. Lesson learnt now!
Experimenting ...again, respectfully, you'd need to be there. Experimenting sure, but not dangerous at that selection/wind range even soloing and no way would I "play on the edge" with 9 x kids on board. As mentioned before, Boty for example will have a full wardrobe up in these conditions, it all depends on the boat.

The kids aren't lost to sailing at all, in fact they're all mad keen to go again this weekend. It was you're normal roller coaster ride, screams and squeals aplenty , hysterical laughing , sure they freaked out a few times but in a good way, not negative and not one unhappy face at the dock at the end of the day.

I've got broad shoulders and one of the things I like on SB is critique and debate, but I don't agree my actions at any stage were dangerous to my passengers or crew at all.

Thanks for the comments though, appreciate you highlighting the safety aspect.

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

twodogs1969 said..

I thought i might have been the only one who saw several more serious problems with the actions taken.
All you people on here that are so safety conscious why is Sir Gallivant the only one who has even mentioned any of the faults.

30 knots admitting it was blowing hard on the nose.
Towing a dinghy.
Experimenting with carrying more sail then ever previously in this breeze.
All with 9 kids being introduced to sailing on board.

Doesn't sound like the smartest decision to me.
You want to go experimenting in those conditions you don't do it with 9 new to sailing kids on board. What if this did scare them and now they have been lost to sailing forever.

G'day Twodogs,
Thx for the comments, I'll try and break down my response for you. I know its sounds on paper like I was being partially irresponsible, but I can assure you I am extremely careful when sailing, more so when I am in charge of kids or newbies. I would respectfully suggest people need to be there if you want to state the actions taken were bad/irresponsible.

30 knots going to windward is nothing in that boat. You are standing unassisted in the cockpit in those wind conditions. All the kids were seated in the cockpit, they all fit on the two cockpit benches. I'd checked the weather from three different sources, we knew exactly what we were expecting, at no stage was the boat even close to being on the edge, and I spoke to an RYA instructor with 25,000 sea miles (that in Moreton Bay alone) prior about my choices that has actively sailed on the boat. The trip was logged with VMR, we had double the life-jackets for the Pob on board. I'd even gone around and tightened lifelines to YA tolerances, there wasn't much left to chance on the planning table regards safety and being sensible.

Let's be clear, there was no accidental gybing, there was no being overpowered, there was nothing wrong at any stage except admittedly I was naive about towing a dinghy. I simply painted a picture about the conditions where I have a design problem that rears it's head in heavy airs.
I apologise , I must have misrepresented the scene, it was another fun day out in heavy wind conditions. What is wrong with sailing in heavy airs if you're equipment is geared for it? Do we all have to leave kids at home, or not go out when it gets windy? I don't hang **** on people sailing in light airs, yet I feel sometimes there a sub-current of negativity amongst a lot of sailors about sailing in strong winds. Genuine question: If the equipment and crew can handle it and enjoy it what is wrong with strong winds for God's sake?

Towing a dinghy: absolutely agree in hindsight. I listened to some bad advice from some I thought would know better. Lesson learnt now!
Experimenting ...again, respectfully, you'd need to be there. Experimenting sure, but not dangerous at that selection/wind range even soloing and no way would I "play on the edge" with 9 x kids on board. As mentioned before, Boty for example will have a full wardrobe up in these conditions, it all depends on the boat.

The kids aren't lost to sailing at all, in fact they're all mad keen to go again this weekend. It was you're normal roller coaster ride, screams and squeals aplenty , hysterical laughing , sure they freaked out a few times but in a good way, not negative and not one unhappy face at the dock at the end of the day.

I've got broad shoulders and one of the things I like on SB is critique and debate, but I don't agree my actions at any stage were dangerous to my passengers or crew at all.

Thanks for the comments though, appreciate you highlighting the safety aspect.

thanks shaggy but i the the regular no 1 up on Saturday over to Morton to clean the bottom for next weekends st helena cup about 20 to 25 knots of breeze and was comfy with wife and 1 of the girls from our race crew probably would have had the same sails up if racing though a kite on the reach home would have been nice [wife voted no she won ,her vote is worth twice ours ]
on towing dingys never tow an inflatable in anything other than flat water we tow our 8 foot tender up to about 40 but it is the correct shape our timber exploration dingy we only tow in very good conditions as it would have similar problems to the inflatable with to flatter sections aft causing broach at speed in rough water
does this mean your out for next weekend

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shaggybaxter said..

Donk107 said..
Hi Shaggy

Was today's gybe planned or accidental

From memory the last time we discussed this it had damaged the wheel

Did it do the same thing today

Regards Don

Hi Donk,
Planned mate. Anytime the mainsheet is eased when we gybe. And yes, shattered the wheel again.
South, yes, not sheeting in the main is the cause. But that's the issue, sheeting in the main in heavy airs powers the boat up and increases the chance of a broach.

Hey Shaggy, I not quite understanding why you cant safely gybe the boat by collecting up main sheet as you bring the stern through the wind, then ease out sheet to complete the gybe.

I know you said something about powering up the sail if you sheet it in. but in my case, sheeting in and bringing the leech into the wind de-powers the main. My boat is slow though with small sails I have not sailed on a pogo so could you elaborate a little more for me.

Cheers

It is a real shame, that you had to compromise on your dream yacht for the sake of a newbie partner and the corporate &%$#s who would not give a toss in the first place.
I see the change of the steering arrangement as a kind of prostitution where a perfectly good reliable design gets screwed by the need to satisfy the 'corporate world' which is the bane of humanity in the first place. Strewth!
I did not know, there is politics involved.

As a mostly single hander l have rules for myself which l never ever compromise on. (Well, this is rule No1, the one that l never compromise on my own rules.)
This is my way of dealing with safety and sail handling issues on my 28 feet Adams.

One of this rules are - whatever anyone thinks or says about it - l never ever under any circumstances sail or motor without wearing a pfd with a harness, safety tethers attached while sailing on my own. When leaving the cockpit l clip onto the Jack-line running bow to cockpit on both sides. Above 20-25 knots l clip on while inside the cockpit, as well. No exceptions, no compromises, no just...!

Well, one of the rules is "never ever tow any dinghy while motoring or sailing". Period.
It might sound strange but it works for me.

I don't want to qualify the degree of danger towing different types of dinghies but the inflatable type with motor attached is the most lethal of them all.


I left the following subject out of my previous post on purpose, however, Ross mentioned it, so l put my two bob's worth in.

Beside all this discipline issues as a retired educator l would find 9 teenagers to deal with, simultaneously, and sail in 25-30 knot winds, more than a handful knowing the youngsters unsteady, abrupt nature. They could snap at any time, do the most unexpected things and react illogically and obstreperously. They are developing personalities and so, unsteady, undeveloped and could become a danger to themselves and each others. And to the boat. Most of them are ticking time bombs. Mines too. A few, may be fine, but nine? Hmmm.

Sailing is an inherently dangerous sport at best of times. Unfortunately, your situation is a textbook case, an otherwise perfectly safe sailing trip could turn into a chain of compounding disasters in a very short time. For anybody. At any time.

I would like to say to you: thanks for bringing it to our attention as a parable, for everyone's benefit.
Your openness might save lifes and teach all of us a lesson.
Good on ya Shaggy!

Btw, there is absolutely nothing wrong sailing in higher winds at all as long as one is capable of handling it.

Regularly tow my inflatable when motoring a few miles to a new anchorage around Rottnest. Only when not much wind, only when motoring. Make up a bridle and attach to transom of dinghy so it's pulling from there with a guide to bow. Works well, dinghy is nice and stable.

Adding the two bobs worth of a grumpy old man, I hate and detest end of boom sheeting. In your case, you just demolished the wheel. In more than one case crew have been trapped against the coaming by the sheet in an accidental gybe. That nay not be an issue on the pogo, and it doesn't happen too often, but when it does happen it can be painfull.