We have started looking more seriously at a larger yacht to camp over night and day sail the Fraser coast from Hervey bay.

Started looking at various 6m trailer sailors but have decided to try and find something that could take 4 adults and 2-4 small kids.

The original plan of a trailer sailor appealed as an option to avoid annual haul out and marina fees. the plan was to store it at the boat ramp with mast up to increase usage and we have limited space to store at home.

We started considering sonata 7 (heavy)
Blazer 740
Nolex 25, farr 7500 ( seem expensive and aged?)

So the question starts to be asked, what about a keel boat?

Do costs start to skyrockete? Anti foul/ marina fees/ osmosis/ diesel engines. Rigging age?

Is a 1990 beneteau 285 potentially a bigger money pit than a trailer sailor?

Starts to become a champagne taste beer budget looking at keel boats.. Bavaria 34 would be nice but completely out of budget

Anyone had anything to do with fareast 28?

Not sure a MacGregor 26 has the sailing appeal I'm after though I have never experienced one.

You are really comparing very different boats.
You need to decide what you want to do with it.
There are a lot cheaper than an old Benny.
A fareast is a sports boat not really an overnighter but fast . If you want a sports type a cheaper option is an E7 .

If going for a keel I would suggest looking at a mid 80's ior type.

I just bought my first boat. I to struggled with the fees of having a boat on a mooring.
I found a 1980 Endeavour 26 for only $4,500. Needs to be fixed up inside, but had just been antifouled, great sails, rigging an in overall great condition. Only has a 5hp outboard.
I have worked out that it will cost me the following per year -
Mooring - $280
moooring service - $220
Rego - $100
Third party Insurance - $400 Optional.
antifoulung DIY - $880
Depreciation on sails and wear and tear - $500

So approx $2,000 to $2,500 per year.

The other option is to get a trailer sailor and save some on the above and probably never use it due to he hassle of getting it into the water.

I understand they are two very different classes of boats. We are stepping up from a Windrush 14 to something we can day sail with the family, occasional overnight and maybe upto 3nights away. All would be partially smooth waters, inside of Fraser island.

The initial thought was 6m trailer sailor but it would be nice to take my parents or friends along. So we have started looking at lager trailer sailors but are concerned they become less user friendly launching etc and a fixed keel becomes more feasible.

I don't see us towing a big boat behind an old 80 series any great distance ( Whitsundays) or realistically cruising the east coast (though I aspire to).

So I suppose I'm asking can you find a tidy keel boat 30- 50k? My current thought so far is its easy to find tidy 6-6.5 m trailer sailors or 100k fixed keel production yachts.

I have a TS so take that into account:

In many ways a TS is more convenient. If you can take it home you can do all your maintenance there. That will save you money. We store ours at home.

We regularly go day sailing and the set up takes about 20 mins (not including the people). Its not the hassle people think in my experience. Mast up storage is great but you have to pay for it and you also lose some of the convenience of portability and home maintenance. Obviously nothing beats a marina berth but $$$.

I would have thought the advantage of being able to lift the keel and even dry out at places like wathumba etc would be a big plus for you. Think RL28 and all the Ross 780s made for Qld customers.

If you are going to pay for storage, dont want portability (by the sound of it) and are happy to only visit waters with 2m depth you might as well get a keelboat as they are cheaper per foot.

There is a Magnum 8.5 for sale at Tin Can bay. Keep that in mast up storage and it would be an ideal family boat. Or keep it in a pen anyway!

I would like a keel boat for longer offshore work but down here mooring and berths are quite expensive so l stick with my Castle 650.

Btw the Castle sleeps 4 and is about as quick as a Noelex and faster than a Sonata 7. They are also really light. The keel retracts so you can dry out nicely. Really easy to set up. But small for 4 people...you can't have everything!

Hope that helps. In the end it depends on you usage patterns and budget to an extent.
Regards Stephen

all depends on how much you intend to use it

I have done the trailerable thing, sand found even tho liked minutes from water it was a pain in the **se ... get it there, rig it etc etc .. and at the end of the day have to pack it up.

went back to OTB boats, now back to what is a cross between sportsboat and keel boat, fast and can stll sleep 4+ relarively comfortable if I ever wanted to do something other than race it.

Like the ease of stepping on and basically going. Cost wise over all you still need to maintain it, still needs sails rigging, etc, no trailer to worry about or register, insure, maintain or suitable car (4x4) to tow it, but does have mooring/marina fees, does need antifoul .... so in the end, IMO it just about balances out

Me, happy with keelboat, albeit work has me away and dont use it as much as I should but sure would use a trailerable a whole lot less.

In the end, your choice, your boat and your decision.

Careel 22.
Very solid, stable boat.. pop top roof..
Affordable. .
But to be honest i dont think there are many ts's that would fit 4 adults and 2-4 children comfortably. Fit and comfortable are different.
Ive had both aswell.. dont miss dropping the mast and packing up. But miss been able to go right into the shallows on a busy day... miss been able to work on it when ever i had a spare moment. But no towing.. pros and cons for both. I have got a ns 27 now and i dont think you could fit 4 adults and 2-4 children. Think you need 30++. To be comfy or your guests maybe a one off..??
Noelex 25s are great boats. My dad had one in Nz.. ive always liked the castles..fast for what they are. There is a castle that races with us in a mixed fleet and he is faster than most us. i retro fitted a castle dagger board to my careel 18.. awesome rudder..guys in Mordiallic at castle yachts Victoria are a cool bunch.

The problem with Trailer boats apart from the annoying stuff like having to rig them etc is storage. In NSW now parking on the street is getting hard to do and this has put pressure on storage facilities. Queensland wont be far behind.

Can't imagine expecting to keep a trailer yacht parked in the street but its true that not everyone has a decent driveway and turning room.

Castle 650 had caught my eye,
Drying out is a concept I haven't tried first hand so I don't know what I'm mising out on. Watumba crk was on the cards though.

Storage at home isn't really an option. It would be out on the street. Carport roof is only 2.3 high and on an angle that would make anything over 6m difficult.

Maybe a big cockpit that could take 6 and sleep 4 would be a more realistic option.

Will look into magnum 8.5s.
I have crewed on farr 9.2 which I thought was a nice size. not too sure what good keel boats to look at. What to avoid.

Did like the idea of an Elliot 7 as a quick day sailer that may be set up for more cruising but not sure they would be very kid friendly. Never been on one.

RL 24 might be an option. Big cockpit

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Madmouse said..
Can't imagine expecting to keep a trailer yacht parked in the street but its true that not everyone has a decent driveway and turning room.

Plenty on the streets in Sydney. I drove past a yacht club storage area the other day that was always full of trailer sailers years ago. only 2 there now and they look like they have not moved for awhile. An 8m trailer sailer takes up a lot of room parked in a front yard and you may not be popular with your neigbours.

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gyccrewman said..
Castle 650 had caught my eye,
Drying out is a concept I haven't tried first hand so I don't know what I'm mising out on. Watumba crk was on the cards though.

Storage at home isn't really an option. It would be out on the street. Carport roof is only 2.3 high and on an angle that would make anything over 6m difficult.

Maybe a big cockpit that could take 6 and sleep 4 would be a more realistic option.

Will look into magnum 8.5s.
I have crewed on farr 9.2 which I thought was a nice size. not too sure what good keel boats to look at. What to avoid.

Did like the idea of an Elliot 7 as a quick day sailer that may be set up for more cruising but not sure they would be very kid friendly. Never been on one.

Castle 650's are a nice boat and sail well and have had up until recently a good resale. They are too small for your needs though. All the trailer sailors are limited to a maximum beam of 8' 2" and this limits their stability and load carrying capacity.
The market is awash with 30 foot IOR yachts that will be a better match for your requirements. Or one of the production yachts of the seventies in the 27 foot region and up.
In the cheaper zone but a really good boat. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/391684531863?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
In the classy area but still good value. yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/defiance-30/194177

If you go fixed keel make sure you have headroom and an inboard diesel.

Its a tricky one. Saw some great trailer sailors recently after working out logistics of sailing to hayman. About 6500k drive up...but as seaworthy as my tophat ? Or as comfortable?
If it were easy to setup it would be great. Awesome thing about boat on mooring is you jump on and go. Bad thing is if you need to tend to something below the waterline you need to slip. I really love the idea of just trailering anywhere. We took the hobie all over and sailed in SA. VIC. Lakes. Etc. Imagine being able to do that but on a proper sail boat. Would be great!
Dont like those macgregors. They look like rubbish. Rigging is the same as my 14 foot hobie!
I reckon theyd fall apart.

A key issue is the availability of moorings near where you live, and the dinghy access to the mooring. If these aspects are good, then a keelboat will be a good solution.
Another issue is time, and how often you will use the boat. Currently I dont get to use my T/S very often as I am still running my business full time, and there are high family demands. However, it is not deteriorating as it sits under a tarp on the street. If the council gets ****ty about street parking I might have to re-asses.
How you will use the boat is yet another question. The family might start off all keen, and then drop out, with only one or two keen participants, or even ending up singlehanding. Starting with a t/s will give you an indication of their true interest, and t/s tend to hold their value if you on-sell.

so, not real keen on storage out on the street so it would be down at the marina for approx 1500/year. Means I could leave the mast up and potentially use it more.

No swing morning areas avalble in the bay unfortunately. So fixed keel would be in the marina. Have seen 8 yr lease for 15k or its 5k per year.

The family has enjoyed the little catamaran and keep looking at Fraser wanting to sail further.

We have it in our heads that a trailer sailer would be cheaper upkeep then a fixed keel boat?


Trailer sailer may also be easier to get out of if you ever have to?

Felt a tidy 15-20k trailer sailor would be the next logical step up from an OTB cat. Seems to be if you keep under 7m. Maybe something I can day sail with 6ppl to Fraser island is a more realistic progression.

Would like to take the plunge on a keel boat but concerned of forking out 40k finding its a liability needs another 20+ spent within 2yrs and be forced to sell at a great loss.

If you're going to compare trailer-sailers with keel boats, spending $40k is way OTT. You can get a pretty good Top Hat these days for not much more than $10K. I reckon market price for my Compass 28 with mooring thrown in wouldn't top $20k the way things are.

Seems to me that if you have reasonable access to mast-up storage a TS would be great to allow frequent use in between those once or twice a year longer trips. Conversely if you can find a mooring close to home, you 're also going to be pretty happy with how much use you can get out of a keelboat.

We looked into both and ended up with a modest keel-boat moored 20 minutes from home. Add 10 minutes in the dinghy and 15 minutes to uncover and slug the main and drop the mooring, and we're on our way. So I use my boat a lot.

But then again, being able to maintain your boat at home with power and water and no rocking around also sounds luxurious.
Nevertheless, I also value the floating man-cave benefit of my boat, a small ocean away from SWMBO.

Cheers, Graeme

Most of the costs for my T/S are due to the fact that I run a second car to tow the boat. (But also the box trailer for gardening duties.) The other costs are boat registrations and insurance, as well as the odd maintenence item. Say $1000 per year. A lot less than a keelboat. However, in your case, $5k just for a marina berth is way more. Comes back to how often you will use the boat. If you are keen, then possible 20 w/ends/annum. Thats $250 per outing, just for the marina.

T/S on the hardstand mast-up sounds good. Something like a Careel 22 might do the trick. There is a short cabin version for day sailing, (bigger cockpit), and the long cabin version for overnighting. Seen them going for around $10k lately.

My tophat was 5k. Costs me 427 mooring. 150 reg. Slip and mooring maintenance 1.5 years. I will take the boat tothe cheapest slip i can find and do it for maybe 500. Mooring service is 175 cash. I take the boat everywhere. Shes ready to go for long trips and used as such. Im not rich but dont find it expensive. I love it.
Prob about a grand a year.

Here is my perspective.

In Melbourne, the overall cost of my 30' keel boat in a berth was similar to my old 24' trailer sailor on a hardstand. Foot for foot trailer sailors are more expensive to buy. The trailers are expensive, don't last for ever and the trailer upkeep roughly balanced antifouling. The other costs were about the same. In today's market, keel boats on moorings are even better value - just be very careful not to get a lemon, it will be impossible to sell.

I am pretty sure that most councils have a size limit around 7m that prevents permanent parking of boats on streets so you need off-street parking to avoid being at the mercy of the neighbours' complaints.

To get the advantages of a trailer sailor it needs to be in the smaller range (<22') so it can easily rigged, parked off street and be able to be driven 100km/hr on the freeway without worry. If you think you want a bigger boat then you may not save that much by getting a trailer sailor.

That is putting aside all the pro's and con's of shallow draft v offshore capability, back yard gloating v berth accessibility etc etc. From the berth I can find time to go sailing 2-3 times per week, but less than once per fortnight on the old trailer sailor.

A

IT's a buyers market ,you only have to look at Boats on line or similar sites . I know that street parking around Mosman and North Sydney is almost impossible unless you are a rate payer. Mooring a vessel is going down the same path. Lake Macquarie around Valentine is on Maritime radar for a mooring rethink as the boating population expands.I quess it all comes down to supply and demand and now it's affordable .
There was talk years ago about getting trailable boats off moorings and putting them in, "on land storage" to free up the bays and charging the owners a fee to have their vessel launched and taken out of the water after use .I think a big part of the problem is mooring minders and unseaworthy vessels, and these need to be removed from waterways to free up mooring areas.
So deciding on what type of sail vessel you want really is your choice .But in my opinion trailersailers are large dinghies and don't behave like keel yachts, yet trailersailers do have there advantages over keel boats so I quess one needs to decide what ones requirements are?, and also comfort and that feel safe factor for family and friends who come out on your pride and joy.Because it's pointless owning a yacht that only you and a couple mates enjoy and the rest of the family and friends fear .

Regards Bear

Hi Andrew l would be interested on what the costs of a berth are in Melbourne for 30 footer.
Stephen

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jbear said..
IT's a buyers market ,you only have to look at Boats on line or similar sites . I know that street parking around Mosman and North Sydney is almost impossible unless you are a rate payer. Mooring a vessel is going down the same path. Lake Macquarie around Valentine is on Maritime radar for a mooring rethink as the boating population expands.I quess it all comes down to supply and demand and now it's affordable .
There was talk years ago about getting trailable boats off moorings and putting them in, "on land storage" to free up the bays and charging the owners a fee to have their vessel launched and taken out of the water after use .I think a big part of the problem is mooring minders and unseaworthy vessels, and these need to be removed from waterways to free up mooring areas.
So deciding on what type of sail vessel you want really is your choice .But in my opinion trailersailers are large dinghies and don't behave like keel yachts, yet trailersailers do have there advantages over keel boats so I quess one needs to decide what ones requirements are?, and also comfort and that feel safe factor for family and friends who come out on your pride and joy.Because it's pointless owning a yacht that only you and a couple mates enjoy and the rest of the family and friends fear .

Regards Bear

There are a few trailer/sailers that behave like keel boats. The Investigator 563 is one, Sunmaid 20, Sunbird25, RedJacket, RedWitch and a few others with heavy ballast keels.

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Madmouse said..
Hi Andrew l would be interested on what the costs of a berth are in Melbourne for 30 footer.
Stephen

The yacht clubs are desperate for membership and there are some good deals around, even better than this :



Hardstands next door at St Kilda marina are just over $3K if you can get around the wait list. It is really exposed there and I know of at least two trailers that barely lasted 10 years due to the southerly driving moist salt laden air over the breakwater.

Convenience is an expensive commodity in Bayside Melbourne and I am sure it is cheaper further afield.

A

If you go for a keel boat and you intend to keep it, IMO the purchase cost becomes less relevant than the ongoing costs.
If you have the money I've always loved the Ross 780's, quick, roomy and genuinely great fun to sail.
I've always had keel boats, so I cannot speak for the cost comparison to a TS.
Regards accommodation, my 40' sleeps four adults and four kids comfortably, my old Sonata 26 did not.

Let's forget about the boat for a minute, and think about the people. Four adults and four children is a lot of people. What are they going to do while you're sailing? Youre not racing, so you do not need to have multiple sheet hands and foredeck hands for changing sails.

I'm guessing that it's two couples and their kids. So you're likely to have one or two people actually sailing the boat, and two adults and four kids with nothing to do. Kids are notorious for wanting to keep active, and being stuck on a boat is a recipe for refusing to come next time.

My recent experience with two couples on a large yacht, is that the ladies spent their time chatting, and were mostly bored. The owner's wife even complained that on their luxury boat worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, the cockpit table could only seat four people.

The standard procedure with kids is to take them ashore and let them run around. This means either a shallow draft to get close inshore, or towing a dinghy. For the adult socialising you probably want to be at anchor as well.

Looking at these probabilities, it seems to me that a powerboat with a large cockpit would do the job. Overnighting in the subtropics where you are could be done in the cockpit as well as the cabin if you have a simple awning arrangement. Terrible thing to say on a sailing forum, but that's the logical conclusion.

The other likely conclusion IMHO, if you press ahead with a sailing boat, is that after the first few outings, you end up sailing with just one or two crew.

Hope no offence taken, that's just my logic.

Import a Hobie 33.

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Andrew68 said..
Here is my perspective.

In Melbourne, the overall cost of my 30' keel boat in a berth was similar to my old 24' trailer sailor on a hardstand. Foot for foot trailer sailors are more expensive to buy. The trailers are expensive, don't last for ever and the trailer upkeep roughly balanced antifouling. The other costs were about the same. In today's market, keel boats on moorings are even better value - just be very careful not to get a lemon, it will be impossible to sell.

I am pretty sure that most councils have a size limit around 7m that prevents permanent parking of boats on streets so you need off-street parking to avoid being at the mercy of the neighbours' complaints.

To get the advantages of a trailer sailor it needs to be in the smaller range (<22') so it can easily rigged, parked off street and be able to be driven 100km/hr on the freeway without worry. If you think you want a bigger boat then you may not save that much by getting a trailer sailor.

That is putting aside all the pro's and con's of shallow draft v offshore capability, back yard gloating v berth accessibility etc etc. From the berth I can find time to go sailing 2-3 times per week, but less than once per fortnight on the old trailer sailor.

A

I agree with your thoughts. I think a trailer sailor is benifical around that 20-22 ft mark going bigger the advantages reduce.

I'm thinking a small trailer sailor for just our family or a keel boat that can take a crowd has become the decision.

As for board kids and powerboats I see your logic. It will most likely be my family (2 kids) and my parents, maybe another family (+2 kids) on occasions.

So far my whole family enjoy sailing over power boats. Another push to upgrade to a yacht would be so I can log some hours to one day gain my yacht master. The dream is to live/ work in the pacific on a yacht.

Was initially thinking a trailer sailor was the next step from OTB cats, if it all works out we might be able to jump straight to a 30ish foot keel boat. Just have to sit down and do the maths to ensure we can afford it at thus stage...

I think one of the earlier respondants has already addressed the people issue. My view is that it is really important to consider how you will use the boat, and what people will be doing on the boat. After all, you only buy a boat to meet a set of circumstances - and most boats are a compromise (because most of us don't have the funds needed to get the boat we deserve). For my liking, I've owned trailer sailers for the past 35 years, and my wife recently convinced me that we are just too old to be rigging and de-rigging a boat at the ramp every time we want to sail, and when we do sail, we want to enjoy the time at sea with our guests - so we opted for a keel boat. Four adults and associated offspring would fit fine on our boat, and we could even set the kids up with some computer games on my laptop down below. Just my view - some folks like trailer sailers, and some like keel boats - I like both, but I think they both have their benefits and pitfalls - you just need to define what you'll be using the boat for most of the time and the answer will become apparent..