After reading about the pros of soft shackles I made up one for headsail sheets per attached using 8 mm and it is perfect for the number 1 BUT would not go through the jib cringle due to the small size . So I made up another with 6 mm. Today I went out with the number 1 up and because the winds were only 5/10 kn. used the 6 mm sheet. All was fine until the wind dropped out and the hanging clew caught against the lifeline .
I gave it a shake and the damm shackle parted from the sail presumably because the cringle was too big for 6 mm. allowing it to slacken off .
Back to bowline.

im with you don't change for the sake of change bowline never lets you own

Always been a fan of the bowline but just lately because I hank my sails on it has been quite hard to get them undone to change sails, I would hate to be fighting the knot while the wind is getting serious might bite the bullet and for the first time ever go back to the head smasher quick release metal fitting

I use a 6mm Dyneema soft shackle bought off eBay. Great bit of kit!

www.google.com.au/search?q=equiplite+connectors&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-au&client=safari#imgrc=6q-NZqFVSSaOuM:

these are great for jib sheets. Never get tight, velcro strap stops them coming undone and they dont smash around.

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Zzzzzz said..
Always been a fan of the bowline but just lately because I hank my sails on it has been quite hard to get them undone to change sails, I would hate to be fighting the knot while the wind is getting serious might bite the bullet and for the first time ever go back to the head smasher quick release metal fitting

A bowline is easy to undo , and stays done up under load , that is the benefit of using it. The quick release fittings should only be used on the kite sheets and braces . If you use metal fittings on your overlapping heady they will hit the shrouds !!! not good !

Ive had bowlines jam up when racing on bigger boats. Before that i thought they could be untied no matter how hard youd pulled on the line.

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Zzzzzz said..
Always been a fan of the bowline but just lately because I hank my sails on it has been quite hard to get them undone to change sails, I would hate to be fighting the knot while the wind is getting serious might bite the bullet and for the first time ever go back to the head smasher quick release metal fitting

What size sheets do you find hard to get undone?

Hard to explain but if you hold knot up side down and break knot backwards it loosens, like breaking the bone out of a leg of lamb apart.
Works for me on sheets about 12 - 15mm

But that setup is far from a soft shackle. There's very little stopping the bit of rope passed through the rope eye! I actually think it's pretty poor to even think about trusting it...

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Jethrow said..
But that setup is far from a soft shackle. There's very little stopping the bit of rope passed through the rope eye! I actually think it's pretty poor to even think about trusting it...

I'll tell em.
Never had a failure with bow line and easy to tie on and loosen .
We used to practice in the dark in rough seas ,one hand for self and one for the knot.

I switched to dyneema soft shackles a few years ago. Awsome. Make my own using this guide.
l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php

Just make sure you brief you crew on how to use them.

Sorry B-Bender, that's not a soft shackle at all. Look closely at the link from M-Mouse - it's completely different. A proper soft shackle (especially the 'improved' one) will certainly not come undone when slack.

I bought a pair of shackles from brand Marlow, as my attempts to tie the diamond knot looked like they had been done by a farmer. I am hopeful that a new set of sheets with small eye splices, and soft shackle connections, will stop the genoa hanging up in the stays when tacking. The previous bowlines were the culprits and this was a big problem in all winds and led to many failed tacks when single-handing.

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saintpeter said..
Sorry B-Bender, that's not a soft shackle at all. Look closely at the link from M-Mouse - it's completely different. A proper soft shackle (especially the 'improved' one) will certainly not come undone when slack.

I bought a pair of shackles from brand Marlow, as my attempts to tie the diamond knot looked like they had been done by a farmer. I am hopeful that a new set of sheets with small eye splices, and soft shackle connections, will stop the genoa hanging up in the stays when tacking. The previous bowlines were the culprits and this was a big problem in all winds and led to many failed tacks when single-handing.

According to this bloke who seemed to know what he's talking about it is.
www.liveabout.com/attach-jib-sheets-with-a-soft-shackle-2915412
Anyway that's me finished with soft shackles to tie on sheets.
Interesting about your issues with bowlines .You did not by chance have the ends on the outside and not tucked in?

Installed new genoa sheets this morning. Soft shackle has been there a few years and was fairly difficult to open. Ignore the failing Dacron UV strip, I'll get to that later.

No need to ignore the UV strip its gonzo. But just how old is that soft shackle ???

I've found that any soft shackle on the clew will stretch and then you can't trim the sheet right back to the block on the track on deck. No matter how tight I made the soft shackle, it would stretch under load that I couldn't sheet in enough. So went back to the standard bowline and am happy again.

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woko said..
No need to ignore the UV strip its gonzo. But just how old is that soft shackle ???

Few years! I turned it around though and should get another few years out of it. Old headsail will go up in the next week or so and I'll use that through the winter while I sew on a new UV strip.

I tighten up my diamond knots on my biggest winch as hard as possible. They look ok and the shackle never stretches.

Cheers

Bristol

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Bristolfashion said..
I tighten up my diamond knots on my biggest winch as hard as possible. They look ok and the shackle never stretches.

Cheers

Bristol

Hi Bristol,
This pre-tensioning seems to be an important bit. Soft shackles are dyneema, which I didn't think stretched noticeably, but I note Foolish has seen stretch.
Does pre=tensioning make, or is, the difference?

Ok, my thoughts in general as I've been making/using soft shackles for 5 years and been in rigging/Chandlery for 20!!

Firstly I think you can't go past bowlines for cruising. On race yachts soft shackles are great for quick changes and repeating settings but because your sheets sit on the winch and blocks at the same place all the time, you'll go through sheets pretty quickly.
A bowling means you can end for end your sheets and as you will never tie the bowline exactly the same, you'll get far longer out if a set of sheets.

Now on soft shackles...a well made soft shackle is 1.5-2 times stronger than the dyneema it's made from, so a 4mm shackle should be at least 3000kg break and a 5mm around 5000kg!!
Now to give you an idea on loads, I have put a Harken 40st winch on a test bed with load cell and in a perfect winding body position with a double handed winch handle, I could get 1500kg max load.

So basically you could use a 4mm soft shackle on any halyard or sheet on any boat under 35ft, a 5mm would be more than enough for the jib sheets on Shaggys Pogo!!

Here's some pics of sheets I made for the Inglis 58 down here.
All 12mm spectra, jib sheets have 8mm soft shackle and kite sheets have 7mm ones!!

Both have velcro keepers at the owners request but I have never had a soft shackle come undone!!

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rumblefish said..
Ok, my thoughts in general as I've been making/using soft shackles for 5 years and been in rigging/Chandlery for 20!!

Firstly I think you can't go past bowlines for cruising. On race yachts soft shackles are great for quick changes and repeating settings but because your sheets sit on the winch and blocks at the same place all the time, you'll go through sheets pretty quickly.
A bowling means you can end for end your sheets and as you will never tie the bowline exactly the same, you'll get far longer out if a set of sheets.

Now on soft shackles...a well made soft shackle is 1.5-2 times stronger than the dyneema it's made from, so a 4mm shackle should be at least 3000kg break and a 5mm around 5000kg!!
Now to give you an idea on loads, I have put a Harken 40st winch on a test bed with load cell and in a perfect winding body position with a double handed winch handle, I could get 1500kg max load.

So basically you could use a 4mm soft shackle on any halyard or sheet on any boat under 35ft, a 5mm would be more than enough for the jib sheets on Shaggys Pogo!!

Here's some pics of sheets I made for the Inglis 58 down here.
All 12mm spectra, jib sheets have 8mm soft shackle and kite sheets have 7mm ones!!

Both have velcro keepers at the owners request but I have never had a soft shackle come undone!!

Rumble,
That's a great explanation and those sheets are better than porn. I've never seen the Velcro keepers, is that a standard thing you do on every one?

I have bow lines on my sheets but really hate the way they hang up on the stays when tacking. I am looking at a new single sheet and thought the lower example of the loop and stopper method might be worth a try. Keen to hear any comments . Bill
..
The traditional way of attaching the sheet to the jib is the cow hitch. The cow hitch (above) is not a nice hitch if we want to be able to change sails quickly. The sheet has to be completely removed from the fairleads, etc. Again we need to find a simple and reliable way to attach the sheet to the sail, yet allow easy removal.The "ideal knot" described above for the mainsail can't be used directly. But with the small adaptation shown below, the sheet can be attached to, and removed from the jib just as easily.
....
A loop is made at the mid-point of the jib sheet by using some whipping twine. Then a short helper line is also securely attached with whipping twine. At the end of the helper line, a plastic stopper is attached. Again, it is important to use a stopper that cannot slip through the clew cringle.

This is slightly better than the two bits of soft rope poked through the eye, as the stopper will provide SOME security but the issue I have with these is that all your sheet load is depending on the strength of the whipping twine. Actually not all as there is some friction of the sheet around the stopper line but most of the load is shear load on the whip. Try and compare the strength of the rope and imagine how much twine you will need. A spliced loop and proper Dynex soft shackle will beat it for strength every time.

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Jethrow said..
This is slightly better than the two bits of soft rope poked through the eye, as the stopper will provide SOME security but the issue I have with these is that all your sheet load is depending on the strength of the whipping twine. Actually not all as there is some friction of the sheet around the stopper line but most of the load is shear load on the whip. Try and compare the strength of the rope and imagine how much twine you will need. A spliced loop and proper Dynex soft shackle will beat it for strength every time.

Thanks Jethrow. You are right that system would put some serious hurt on 1mm twine. OK some more splicing practice for me. Thanks

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termite said..
I have bow lines on my sheets but really hate the way they hang up on the stays when tacking. I am looking at a new single sheet and thought the lower example of the loop and stopper .
....
A loop is made at the mid-point of the jib sheet by using some whipping twine. Then a short helper line is also securely attached with whipping twine. At the end of the helper line, a plastic stopper is attached. Again, it is important to use a stopper that cannot slip through the clew cringle.

Aside from whipping twine issue the above suggestion and even the
original I posted are not bad alternatives PROVIDED the rope size is such that the the loop has to be squeezed through the cringle ie. the loop once through is greater in size than the diameter of the cringe so than when the "helper line" once inserted and pulled tight will not loosen.
Another important factor would be to ensure that the loop/s are not too big such that movement happens ( per instructions from the article). My issue was that the cringle on the number 1 was way too big for the size sheet I used and there was no way it would remain tight when the sheets were slack .
Interesting comment from jethrow regarding twine being used to create the loop .Just about all continuous sheets where a loop is created in the middle twine is used and even though I did the same I was sceptical of its strength.

To reply to Shaggy, I don't think dyneema stretches appreciably and it doesn't need any stretching. The winching is only to tighten the diamond knot as much as possible - the test I read indicated that this was the main predictor of final breaking strength.

Cheers

Bristol

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Bananabender said..
...Just about all continuous sheets where a loop is created in the middle twine is used and even though I did the same I was sceptical of its strength.

Hi Bender. Yeah, my comments were mainly directed at the whipped eye loop as the hardest on the whipping twine. In the situation of the continuous sheet with the loop whipped in the middle, the act of cow-hitching the loop through the ring and back on itself means the loop part grips both the sheet parts and the friction takes some of the strain off the whipping. Hopefully that makes sense of my reason for it being less loaded. If the sheet is just passed through the ring and whipped outside then I see the same issues as the whipped eye.

In my photo above of my soft shackle I should add that under the West coast whipping I stitched the sheets together first. This not only makes the whipping easier but takes a fair bit of the load.

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shaggybaxter said..

rumblefish said..
Ok, my thoughts in general as I've been making/using soft shackles for 5 years and been in rigging/Chandlery for 20!!

Firstly I think you can't go past bowlines for cruising. On race yachts soft shackles are great for quick changes and repeating settings but because your sheets sit on the winch and blocks at the same place all the time, you'll go through sheets pretty quickly.
A bowling means you can end for end your sheets and as you will never tie the bowline exactly the same, you'll get far longer out if a set of sheets.

Now on soft shackles...a well made soft shackle is 1.5-2 times stronger than the dyneema it's made from, so a 4mm shackle should be at least 3000kg break and a 5mm around 5000kg!!
Now to give you an idea on loads, I have put a Harken 40st winch on a test bed with load cell and in a perfect winding body position with a double handed winch handle, I could get 1500kg max load.

So basically you could use a 4mm soft shackle on any halyard or sheet on any boat under 35ft, a 5mm would be more than enough for the jib sheets on Shaggys Pogo!!

Here's some pics of sheets I made for the Inglis 58 down here.
All 12mm spectra, jib sheets have 8mm soft shackle and kite sheets have 7mm ones!!

Both have velcro keepers at the owners request but I have never had a soft shackle come undone!!

Rumble,
That's a great explanation and those sheets are better than porn. I've never seen the Velcro keepers, is that a standard thing you do on every one?

Sorry for the late reply, no I don't as I've never had one come undone, but customer requested in this case.

Here is some more porn ;)
Soft shackle built into the end of the halyard :))

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rumblefish said..

shaggybaxter said..

rumblefish said..
Ok, my thoughts in general as I've been making/using soft shackles for 5 years and been in rigging/Chandlery for 20!!

Firstly I think you can't go past bowlines for cruising. On race yachts soft shackles are great for quick changes and repeating settings but because your sheets sit on the winch and blocks at the same place all the time, you'll go through sheets pretty quickly.
A bowling means you can end for end your sheets and as you will never tie the bowline exactly the same, you'll get far longer out if a set of sheets.

Now on soft shackles...a well made soft shackle is 1.5-2 times stronger than the dyneema it's made from, so a 4mm shackle should be at least 3000kg break and a 5mm around 5000kg!!
Now to give you an idea on loads, I have put a Harken 40st winch on a test bed with load cell and in a perfect winding body position with a double handed winch handle, I could get 1500kg max load.

So basically you could use a 4mm soft shackle on any halyard or sheet on any boat under 35ft, a 5mm would be more than enough for the jib sheets on Shaggys Pogo!!

Here's some pics of sheets I made for the Inglis 58 down here.
All 12mm spectra, jib sheets have 8mm soft shackle and kite sheets have 7mm ones!!

Both have velcro keepers at the owners request but I have never had a soft shackle come undone!!

Rumble,
That's a great explanation and those sheets are better than porn. I've never seen the Velcro keepers, is that a standard thing you do on every one?

Sorry for the late reply, no I don't as I've never had one come undone, but customer requested in this case.

Here is some more porn ;)
Soft shackle built into the end of the halyard :))

Now that is really really cool Rumble.

As Motor ( or stink if you are like that ) boater I can't see what IS wrong with normal staino shackles, they look stronger. But then again I have never had any experience with soft shackles.
regards,
mick