Hi everyone,
My young family (2 adults, a 2 yo child & another on the way!) wants to buy our first yacht to gain more sailing experience/boat handling.

Our dream one day is to purchase a blue water cruiser in Europe and sail back to Aus but our first boat will not need to be blue water capable.

I'd love some help and advice please in narrowing down a practical sized yacht & makes & models.

We have limited sailing experience but I'm comfortable on boats/boat handling.
My wife and I have RYA day skipper quals and I've done a bare boat charter in Thailand, worked on fishing boats, had tinnie as a kid & sail training on Young Endeavour years ago.

We live in Canberra and plan to moor the yacht around Batemans Bay NSW (open to suggestions) which is a 2hr drive each way & use boat for weekends.

Use:
-coastal sailing (up to a few days away)
-2 adults, 2 small children (sufficient space for us all)
-sailing experience & fun

Budget: $50k approx

Must haves:
-easy to handle
-safe & seaworthy
-sails well, fun, with good feedback
-All lines to cockpit for short handed
-sloop rigged (possibly cutter also)
-26 foot & above
-fibreglass
-fin keel
-good reliable engine
-good cond standing rigging
-good sails
-good resale
-fully enclosed head with toilet
-none or limited osmosis
-elec windlass
-not a project boat (I'm time poor. Young family, work & distance from boat means I want to sail & not refit). Some upgrades & tidy up (new cushions, revarnish, small repairs) are ok.

Prefer/nice to have:
-less than 30 years old (give or take)
-for sale NSW, south QLD, Vic
-at least 1 double birth but prefer 2 closed off from saloon
-gas cooker
-pressure water (preferably hot)
-fridge
-dingy
-solar/wind
-inverter
-davits
-autopilot/self steering

I've been reading a lot on this forum & researching vessels between 30-35 foot.

I've considered & researched: Mottle 33, Jarkan 10.5, Beneteau First 27.7 & 30, Moody 346, Moody 35, Sadler 34, Hallberg Rassy 29, Compass 38,
Van de Stadt 34,Sparkman and Stephens 30 (or similar),Arends 33, Northshore 33, Catalina 27, 28, 30. I realise some are outside my current price range of 50k.

Should I go smaller for first boat? Research suggests a boat 22-27 foot may be better to learn on due to ease of handling and sailing feedback/feel, berthing etc. The trade off is interior space if we go too small as I don't want this to turn the family off sailing if we are too cramped, uncomfortable and ready to kill each other!

I have a soft spot for centre cockpits (around 33-35 foot) for the safe cockpit location, interior space & seperate sizeable aft cabin (despite their poor use as births while sailing (leecloths aside))

I'd love some help & advice from you all to weigh up pros and cons. Thanks for the historical posts from which I've learnt a great deal so far.

mottle or the VS 34 would be my picks

Buy that Sadler 34 up in Sydney and forget about davits.

Another boat worth looking at is already at Batemans Bay. This one comes with a mooring in a decent spot. Is advertised as an SS34 but is a one off S&S that is very similar but just looks a little different! I see her here regularly. Is older than what you want but is a particularly well fitted vessel in nice condition. Don't think about davits! Has a good windvane steering unit.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-34/206150

Been for sale for a long time and is down to about half what it came on the market for.

I would highly recommend a Martzcraft 35 very solid cruiser sails well and they have dropped in price.
You should be able to at least buy 20% cheaper than what the asking price is on any yacht as a minimum the Martzcraft has just about everything you want and can easily sail the world as a bonus

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SandS said..
mottle or the VS 34 would be my picks

SandS how easy would they be to sail single or double handed and would one be better than the other performance wise and to gain sailing experience?

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Ramona said..
Buy that Sadler 34 up in Sydney and forget about davits.

Hi Ramona, I like that Sadler & made enquiries recently. It seems well cared for. Same owner for 20 years & I like the newish motor. 14 yo sails apparently in good condition.

Rig was replaced 14 years ago & I'm told insurance co's won't fully insure if older than 10yrs. Est. rig replacement cost $6k I'm told. Osmosis is present but I don't know how much.

What do you think the boat is roughly worth?

Any cons of a twin skinned hull?

Why do some of you say to forgo davits?

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Ramona said..
Another boat worth looking at is already at Batemans Bay. This one comes with a mooring in a decent spot. Is advertised as an SS34 but is a one off S&S that is very similar but just looks a little different! I see her here regularly. Is older than what you want but is a particularly well fitted vessel in nice condition. Don't think about davits! Has a good windvane steering unit.

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-34/206150

Been for sale for a long time and is down to about half what it came on the market for.

I hadn't found this one Ramona, thanks for flagging it. Its age concerns me but I don't know why. Maybe it's not an issue if the boat is sound. I'll make enquiries.

Mooring would be really helpful as I hear they are hard to come by in BB (and also expensive?)

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BROWNSMTRACE said..
I would highly recommend a Martzcraft 35 very solid cruiser sails well and they have dropped in price.
You should be able to at least buy 20% cheaper than what the asking price is on any yacht as a minimum the Martzcraft has just about everything you want and can easily sail the world as a bonus

I've read a little about the Martz C Brownsmtrace (possibly on this forum. I love the aft cabin space. Is it true that they are quite slow sailing?

How roomy are their cockpits?

I've been following this one: http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1989-MARTZCRAFT-35/OAG-AD-16284865
What are your thoughts?

Good to know about the 20% off asking price, many thanks!

I owned a Matzcraft it would easily sail 8kts cockpit small and the wheel can't be stood behind I hated that, but inside is fantastic big rear room hot shower and kids have their own room I have seen them sell as low as $30000 but as you say you will be fixing it up and that's not you want.
If size really dosnt worry you and you want something to learn on , cheap to maintain very forgiving and a great seaboat the Duncason 29 is amazing value much loved in general by their owners, and so cheap.
seen some in SA from as little as$10.000 YOU really would learn to sail on these but limited space .
If you start going peformance you start getting flighty I would suggest looking for a boat that will look after you and forgives your mistakes .
wives tend not to go back when they have been scared.

That engine would worry me the timber on the outside shows it hasn't been as loving looked after as they say $65 Would be achievable on that yacht but that would be the start of your spending.
Sloop rig unusual on the Martzcraft.
I sailed mine enginless to Cairns , you can't do that with a yacht that dosnt sail well .

Have a look at the Phantoms. The 33 has a wider cockpit than the 32 which is better for the family. I regularly singlehand and they are easy to sail. They are sloop rigged and aren't prone to osmosis. If you want Davits it's easy to get them. I bought some Martec Davits online and they bolted straight on in less then half an hour.
They are very capable boats and are cruising up and down the coast regularly. You can pick them up for under fifty grand and there seems to be a lot down your way.

What does your wife think?
Where's the baby get stowed?

2 kids (ages?), 1 baby, drive from Canberra for weekends, 'time poor', $50k budget ...

The S&S is a well cared for boat - I've been aboard. Owned by very nice and very experienced people.

As a former Batemans Bay/Canberra sailor (who is about to relinquish a mooring in a great spot near the bridge) I'd be concerned about going much over 5ft in draft due to the depth of the bar. We went from 4ft 8" draft to over 6ft and noticed how much more we were constrained by the tides with the bigger boat.

I love the Bay and miss it even though the boat is now in Port Stephens. Although it's not much good for anchoring in a southerly, there are some lovely little bays that are protected from winds from the north-east through to the west. The river also offers a nice gentle area to motor and anchor.

If you are thinking long term, I'd enquire about the height of the new bridge. It will stop boats like our current 36'er from going up the river.

The Bay is affected by swell much of the time. Our 28'er is quite rolly at anchor so we just used to put out a stern anchor to hold her in line with the swell. While it wasn't critical in the 36'er, it still made a lot of difference to comfort. I would place a high priority on being able to run a stern anchor out easily. That, coupled with the shorebreak on the beaches, means a good dinghy is important and you have to be able to handle it and get in and out easily. A boarding platform or fairly moderate freeboard would be good things to have. A high-freeboard boat without a boarding platform could be a problem.

In the typical summer NE, the five bays along the northern shore all make lovely anchorages. The un-named one to the east of Reef Point was one of our favourites; roos on shore, no house to be seen apart from those 5ks south on the other side of the bay, water so clear you can easily see the anchor 20ft down, and white sand.

My favourite spot was between the Tollgate Islands. Although in strong winds it's exposed, it can be an overnight anchorage in lighter conditions. If you have a good dinghy you can go around to the Shark Gully, to snorkel in clear water among overhanging slabs or rock, or motor through the sea cave. There's good snorkelling - not as good as the Barrier Reef, but lovely. In whale season it's spectacular but there are normally dolphins and fairy penguins.

Broulee is a good anchorage 10m south that works in most conditions, while Durras offers one anchorage protected from the north and two protected from the south. Moruya River has a narrow entrance but it's not too shallow and you can go all the way up to the town.

BB does require more effort than somewhere like Port Stephens. You will have to learn the tide-restricted bar, the way wind and swell affects some anchorages, etc. You'll have to learn to be careful around the rocks, especially if you're trying to find a new place to anchor. But the wildlife is great; it feels like real cruising because you are normally anchored alone; and it has a lovely unexplored feel to it. Take it easy at first since one bad day rolling around in the wrong anchorage can turn off a family forever.

The Martzcraft isn't as quick as the other boats you've looked at and while the design deserves respect, if you're getting in and out of a dinghy in anchorages that are rarely dead calm I'd be cautious about its high freeboard. Same with the Jarkan which is also a fine boat. The Arends is shallow, which is good, but like the Martzcraft not a quick boat.

The Mottle does seem like a good choice. That low, wide stern could take a boarding platform very easily. If you get davits, which could be a good idea, check their capacity as some only take tiny dinghies and around BB, a slightly larger dinghy can be a real plus.

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mattthefrog said..

Ramona said..
Buy that Sadler 34 up in Sydney and forget about davits.

Hi Ramona, I like that Sadler & made enquiries recently. It seems well cared for. Same owner for 20 years & I like the newish motor. 14 yo sails apparently in good condition.

Rig was replaced 14 years ago & I'm told insurance co's won't fully insure if older than 10yrs. Est. rig replacement cost $6k I'm told. Osmosis is present but I don't know how much.

What do you think the boat is roughly worth?

Any cons of a twin skinned hull?

Why do some of you say to forgo davits?

The Sadler 34 is one of the all time favourites for the Poms making Atlantic crossings. Davits should not be seen on boats under 70 feet in my opinion and certainly not on yachts that go to sea. That said the yacht next to mine is 54 foot and owned by people in Canberra and has an inflatable on davits. Still looks wrong and makes the boat more of a motorsailer. The big down side of davits locally is the temptation from lowlifes from the big smoke to steal the inflatable boats!
Jervis Bay and Greenwell Point is a popular place for Canberra people to keep there yachts as well now that highway 93 is operational.
Insurance is going to be a problem with any yacht over 25 years old.
That SS in Batemans Bay is on a mooring just off the motels about halfway between the bridge and the marina. This is a seriously nice boat that is selling well under it's value simply because it's not a production boat. The SS34 is a seriously good sailing vessel and is not to be confused with Marzecrafts and Phantoms etc. An old couple sail it up and down the coast so it will be set up well for a young family.
I think you can just about forget about resale with yachts these days, the market seems to be continuously in free fall.

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Ramona said..
I think you can just about forget about resale with yachts these days, the market seems to be continuously in free fall.

Ain't that the truth??

I agree that Davits are ugly and aren't to be used in any sort of serious seaway but for a young family in sheltered waters the extra deck space and the convenience of Davits far out ways the cons. Not having to struggle putting outboards onto dinghies every time you want to go ashore or listening to the constant slapping of a dinghy all night makes cruising just that little bit more enjoyable. I did it for a while and it wasn,t fun.
When I go into open water I just strap the dink on deck.
S&S34's are cracking yachts just not roomy enough for my liking and room is very important when sailing with kids. I still shake my head when I see how much stuff comes onto my boat every time the kids come. They never seem to leave with as much stuff.

Have seen a few Swarbrick s&s 34 on the hard the hull littered with osmosis

The S&S in BB isn't a standard S&S 34. It's a glass/balsa hull, with timber deck and cabin if I recall correctly. A tough little boat (check the 'glass thickness on the core sample they have!) with lots of offshore miles and beamier in the stern than the S&S 34. I think it was a Kiwi build, perhaps by Brin Wilson, which may explain the cabin which made me think it was a Townson.

The layout is a very practical offshore one, from memory, which may or may not suit the OP and their family. Bulletproof and sorted.

Ramona, I agree with you about davits offshore in many ways, but if it's just coastal stuff the convenience would be nice.

Call me old fashioned but I am not a fan of composite built boats seen way to many having decks ripped out and rebuilt. Even saw half a hull stripped back because one Staunton wasn't bedded properly

Mum and dad own one of these, and neither are hugely experienced, nor adventurous, yet they've done significant coastal cruising in south east Tasmania (without an autopilot). exceptionally stable, with good performance -from memory they're a Farr 1104 hull with a meter cut off the stern aand an aft cabin with a proper double! Sail trim makes a huge difference in reducing weather helm in fresh breeze - as in any boat. When I used to race her, I fund she was well behaved upwind in 25 without a reef so long as the traveller was down the track and the backstay on hard, smallish jib makes tacking easy compared to a M/H rig. A huge amount of space down below,, and a spacious centre cockpit. The hard dodger on this one is a bonus. boarding platform would bolt to the stern easily enough (I've seen it done), and davits shouldn't be a problem.
Moderate draft. Having sailed one in a huge variety of conditions I'd think this would be worth a look, even if she's not as pretty as an S&S!
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/compass-innovator-33/214766

There is a Van de stadt 36 that i built and raised 2 kids aboard for sale in Tas but needs some tlc. Current owner has done a few laps around the pacific in her. Centre cockpit, very roomy, sails well, davits etc. there are a couple of others around for sale as well. Could be worth going just that bit bigger and you wont grow out of it for a while. Also you cant beat a dinghy for learning to sail so could be worth getting one for the lakes as well. Photo is the vds seal 36.

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All@Sea said..
Mum and dad own one of these, and neither are hugely experienced, nor adventurous, yet they've done significant coastal cruising in south east Tasmania (without an autopilot). exceptionally stable, with good performance -from memory they're a Farr 1104 hull with a meter cut off the stern aand an aft cabin with a proper double! Sail trim makes a huge difference in reducing weather helm in fresh breeze - as in any boat. When I used to race her, I fund she was well behaved upwind in 25 without a reef so long as the traveller was down the track and the backstay on hard, smallish jib makes tacking easy compared to a M/H rig. A huge amount of space down below,, and a spacious centre cockpit. The hard dodger on this one is a bonus. boarding platform would bolt to the stern easily enough (I've seen it done), and davits shouldn't be a problem.
Moderate draft. Having sailed one in a huge variety of conditions I'd think this would be worth a look, even if she's not as pretty as an S&S!
https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/compass-innovator-33/214766

An ex navy mate of mine has one of these here. He is very happy with it. He stepped up from a Northerner 28 so it was a big increase for him. They are however a small 33 and his was roughly half what the asking price is here.

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Chris 249 said..
The S&S in BB isn't a standard S&S 34. It's a glass/balsa hull, with timber deck and cabin if I recall correctly. A tough little boat (check the 'glass thickness on the core sample they have!) with lots of offshore miles and beamier in the stern than the S&S 34. I think it was a Kiwi build, perhaps by Brin Wilson, which may explain the cabin which made me think it was a Townson.

The layout is a very practical offshore one, from memory, which may or may not suit the OP and their family. Bulletproof and sorted.

Ramona, I agree with you about davits offshore in many ways, but if it's just coastal stuff the convenience would be nice.

Had a chat with the owner awhile back. It is a Sparkman and Stephens design at 34 feet but is not an SS34 as we know it. It's regularly here. This is a photo from a few years back.

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BROWNSMTRACE said..
Have seen a few Swarbrick s&s 34 on the hard the hull littered with osmosis

Where?
The early round hatch boats can suffer a bit but I am yet to see a bad case of osmosis in one. The later square hatch 34s I've never seen any problem with osmosis.

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Ramona said..

Chris 249 said..
The S&S in BB isn't a standard S&S 34. It's a glass/balsa hull, with timber deck and cabin if I recall correctly. A tough little boat (check the 'glass thickness on the core sample they have!) with lots of offshore miles and beamier in the stern than the S&S 34. I think it was a Kiwi build, perhaps by Brin Wilson, which may explain the cabin which made me think it was a Townson.

The layout is a very practical offshore one, from memory, which may or may not suit the OP and their family. Bulletproof and sorted.

Ramona, I agree with you about davits offshore in many ways, but if it's just coastal stuff the convenience would be nice.

Had a chat with the owner awhile back. It is a Sparkman and Stephens design at 34 feet but is not an SS34 as we know it. It's regularly here. This is a photo from a few years back.

I have it on good authority that while the owners claim it to be an S&S it isn't. It is a kiwi built yacht designed by the builder from some S&S drawings. It's sailing characteristics are not similar to the S&S34.

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mattthefrog said..

SandS said..
mottle or the VS 34 would be my picks

SandS how easy would they be to sail single or double handed and would one be better than the other performance wise and to gain sailing experience?

both can be single handed easily if set up with self tailing genoa winches . you will probs find more mottles in F/Glass than V/S .
the mottles are a very good yacht on all points of sail , nice wide ass for down wind ,and point like a witch !
the VS would point as well , but maybe not as stable down wind .
the mottle has a aft master cabin and a smaller vee berth . not sure but the VS layouts would vary a fair bit more as more owner fit outs and builds .

There is one in Tin Can Bay (S&S34) has spent a lot of money on a paint job which looks fantastic but every time it comes out of the water it's covered in blisters.
The other one i saw was in Lauries marina on the hard stand first time I had seen one with the keel off , sure makes the yacht look small they had taken all the gel coat off to do repairs.

Mottle 33 are built by two different companies the Nauits are supposed to be way better, unless your a midget (sorry Mr Adams) you will hate going down the rabbit burrow to go to bed BUT they do sail nice

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BROWNSMTRACE said..
Mottle 33 are built by two different companies the Nauits are supposed to be way better, unless your a midget (sorry Mr Adams) you will hate going down the rabbit burrow to go to bed BUT they do sail nice

Joe Adams died in 2012 www.mysailing.com.au/news/australian-yacht-designer-joe-adams-murdered-in-the-philippines so i don't think he will be too upset by your comment

Regards Don

Yeah i knew that donk just being polite