Hello
I've been kicking around sites with boats for sale for a few weeks, but think I need a bit more insight.
Considering a trailer sailer as a multi-purpose boat to suit Hervey Bay location - bit of whale watching in season, fishing, diving, snorkelling and sailing, plus getting over to Fraser Island and down among the Sandy Straits. Also as a self-contained travel and camping method. More likely to trailer between appealing locations (caravan mode) than do anything more than hug the coastline once outside.
My understanding is to go for a flat bottom that can be beached and doesn't become unusable if caught by the low tide.
I've talked with a local sailmaker and long term sailer of smaller yachts and his wife, and they had very good things to say about the Southern Cross 23, which they owned for some years.
They seem to be just that bit more comfortable space-wise for a few nights away than the Careel 18. And they thought (around here anyway) the RL24 is quite likely to have been stressed from racing.
This sort of size would also allow us to sample on board living before thinking about anything bigger and more permanent as we get towards retirement age.
I've seen a number in varying states of repair, but there is one I've found in very good condition with pretty much everything done to it, asking about $18K.
Seems I could pay that sort of money and not have the hassle of doing all the sort of work assembling all the bits this guy has, and have a lot more time to actually go use it.
So does it sound like I'm on the right track?

Mad mission is the man to speak to. He will probably put a few links up to some sites for you.

www.trailersailerplace.com.au/

Sounds expensive. However you will pay more for a t/s than the equivalent size keelboat.

Thanks HG

Firstly Rigi welcome aboard , you will find a wealth of knowledge here at seabreeze on all aspects of sailing

I dont have any experience with many other TS's apart from my own Boomerang 20 Drop Keel , my dads Hartley 16 and the few i have crewed on over the years
any comment i would make on the designs you speak of would be anecdotal and uninformed

However i can comment on the versatility , convenience of TS's in general.
They are like any boat ..a compromise for the activities you outlined it sounds like a TS would suit you
As a recreational sailor i appreciate the sailing performance of a well designed TS , being mostly FG construction as are most of the major designs , when kept on a trailer , under a tarp or in a shed offer a low maintenance and cost alternative to a keel boat which is normally in the elements and on a mooring

With that said you obviously need an adequate tow vehicle and well maintained trailer , Generally speaking you have a lot less space due to the shorter LOA and intrusion into cabin of a centerboard case whether it be a drop or swing keel ...

I dont think its worthwhile discussing the seaworthiness as it depends on so many variables but i suggest you would want to have some experience and sound vessel even if you "hugging the coastline"
Trailing to destinations offering sheltered waters is one of the TS's strengths

Your tow vehicle will most likely dictate the size of any boat you would look and at its imperative to remain legal when towing on public roads.

As you can appreciate this is a big topic I can recommend
www.trailersailerplace.com.au/
as a useful source of information on all things relating to TS's

Hope this helps

Wow such a comprehensive listing
With such attention to detail i would assume it would have been over a weigh bridge
with all the extras it may be quite heavy
As always consider the resale value , look at what others of the same / similar (read sonata's ) design are / might be selling for .

Its a long time since miller and whiworth made mainsails so check out cot of replacement

ps. just checked sonata victoria web site http://23.101.235.194/
which has spec page
from which the NW 23 weight Racing trim 1800 kgs and cruising 2000 kg

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RigilKent said..
Thanks for these thoughts already.
We have a 2011 Forester XT turbo. Online says the towing limit is 1800kgs, so I think I'm clear there.
The boat I'm talking about is http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/woodburn/sail-boats/southern-cross-23-trailer-sailor/1100297124
The guy really seems to have done just about everything...
Thanks for the link - seems a really useful community. Bookmarked!

Nice looking boat and they are good boats. That one is at a premium price and that should not worry you too much, it's only money and you can't take it with you! The outboard motor is a bit too big. even 8 hp is on the large size for a 23 footer.

Queensland can be a hot and miserable place and living in a small fibreglass boat might not suit the better half. A lot of your time will be spent in the cockpit so ensure the seats are long enough to sleep on. Full length cockpit tent should be considered.

I like these. www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/falcon/sail-boats/trailer-sailor/1099818502

If I wanted to spend plenty of money I would go straight to a Noelex 25.

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madmission said..
Wow such a comprehensive listing
With such attention to detail i would assume it would have been over a weigh bridge
with all the extras it may be quite heavy
As always consider the resale value , look at what others of the same / similar (read sonata's ) design are / might be selling for .

Its a long time since miller and whiworth made mainsails so check out cot of replacement

ps. just checked sonata victoria web site http://23.101.235.194/
which has spec page
from which the NW 23 weight Racing trim 1800 kgs and cruising 2000 kg

Are those weights including trailer?

Yara
Yes as i read the document http://23.101.235.194/
Its at the very bottom of the page

+1 for ramonas observation
"If I wanted to spend plenty of money I would go straight to a Noelex 25."
Ticks a lot of boxes

I am partial to the sabre 22 but still check the weights these are solidly built , possibly too heavy as well
here is a great example which i had the pleasure to spend an afternoon on few years back up the cowan creek
Beautifully maintained by long term owners
www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gordon/sail-boats/sabre-22ft-trailer-sailer/1103940821

have a look at the Farr 750 as well , very good fast , roomy yacht . keel is not as heavy as the sonata .

You need to bear in mind that a forester is quite a small tow vehicle. Anything on a tandem trailer will be either on or near the 1800kg limit. Noelex for example is 2000 kg.

Ultimate 18 might be a good choice or Boomerang 20 on single axle.

Stephen

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Madmouse said..
You need to bear in mind that a forester is quite a small tow vehicle. Anything on a tandem trailer will be either on or near the 1800kg limit. Noelex for example is 2000 kg.

Ultimate 18 might be a good choice or Boomerang 20 on single axle.

Stephen

oops yeah , the forester is a bit light on for the sc 23 or the farr 750 , both those would need a cruiser or similar to be safe.

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SandS said..

Madmouse said..
You need to bear in mind that a forester is quite a small tow vehicle. Anything on a tandem trailer will be either on or near the 1800kg limit. Noelex for example is 2000 kg.

Ultimate 18 might be a good choice or Boomerang 20 on single axle.

Stephen

oops yeah , the forester is a bit light on for the sc 23 or the farr 750 , both those would need a cruiser or similar to be safe.

That's why I would go with the Windrush. http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/falcon/sail-boats/trailer-sailor/1099818502

Any problems then just push it off a cliff or leave at a recycling shop. The boat not the car! If I was considering a trailer sailer trip to the deep North I would probably buy a EL Falcon station wagon to tow the Windrush and leave it about the place and not worry about some one stealing it. Just head up to the border, put my watch back one hour and twenty years.

The Windrush Wildfire is an ideal yacht for the Great Sandy Straits. The trailer is single axle and therefore easy to manoeuvre and is easily towed behind a 6 cylinder car.

One for sale in W.A. at a bargain price.

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/beldon/sail-boats/windrush-wildfire-trailer-sailer/1103467864

wildfire.nodrama.com.au/

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Ramona said..


Any problems then just push it off a cliff or leave at a recycling shop. The boat not the car! If I was considering a trailer sailer trip to the deep North I would probably buy a EL Falcon station wagon to tow the Windrush and leave it about the place and not worry about some one stealing it. Just head up to the border, put my watch back one hour and twenty years.

This is my sacrificial rig but would be disappointed if i lost it
Over the weighbridge 1340 kgs with 10% on the draw bar
Aluminum trailer , outboard and some other equipment transferred to pano to keep it legal.
Its a compromise but at this stage it suits my use and budget.

You are a very lucky and/or smart man madmission. Thats a very practical setup!

Is that a staysail for a cutter rig that I see?

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Ramona said...

[b]

. Just head up to the border, put my watch back one hour and twenty years.

I can't offer any first hand advice on a trailer sailer but having own plenty of boats on trailers I will suggest -

Consider how hard will it be too launch and much more importantly retrieve.

How many ppl will you need to help you? Are said ppl happy to help you and fit for the task ?

Safety. . .things go wrong at boat ramps....the difference between sore fingers and losing them is good knowledge of whats likely to go wrong and how to avoid it.

Mental health. ...busy boat ramps....basically used to do my head in . it can be a struggle. ..and often seems bring out the worse in ppl

( if someone is struggling at the ramp...rather than get the cranks whinging how long they are taking..go help them! If frees up the ramp quicker than watching them suffer...its a nice thing to do...why don't more ppl do that )

The towing vehicle been well documented. ..but make sure the boat trailer is up to the job. Wheel bearing, brakes, the lights.

And ....the tyres!!!

Make sure the spare is good and actually fits

Just my 2c

Yara good get , indeed that is my small staysail i find it very useful with a number 3 and reefed main it gives me drive down low to punch into the chop.







MM its more good luck that photo is taken from sitting on my balcony looking north thats where i learnt to sail around 55 years ago , which is not quite the combined age of my boat and car

The ramp i use chopesBro is 300 mts down the road and Its nice and quiet no rush i do manage my times with regard the tide and wind direction but thats part of the deal with using that sort of ramp the fisho's that use it are ok





With my "Frankenwinch" (made from the old manual winch and a ford starter motor) and centering ezi roller setup i retrieve single handed in under a minute with no effort check the video albeit at a different ramp

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madmission said..


This is my sacrificial rig but would be disappointed if i lost it
Over the weighbridge 1340 kgs with 10% on the draw bar
Aluminum trailer , outboard and some other equipment transferred to pano to keep it legal.
Its a compromise but at this stage it suits my use and budget.

Nice set up madmission. If you don't have it already I suggest putting a one tonne rear axle under the back of the panno.

I have a 97 XH, 5 speed manual with one tonne rear axle and only 156,000 k on the clock that I am selling if you are interested.

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Ramona said..


If I was considering a trailer sailer trip to the deep North I would probably buy a EL Falcon station wagon to tow the Windrush and leave it about the place and not worry about some one stealing it. Just head up to the border, put my watch back one hour and twenty years.

Ah yes!! That is what makes Queensland so great. Beautiful one day, perfect the next.

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madmission said..

With my "Frankenwinch" (made from the old manual winch and a ford starter motor) and centering ezi roller setup i retrieve single handed in under a minute with no effort check the video albeit at a different ramp

I had the same set up on my Windrush Wildfire trailer.

Using the spinnaker pole as a lever from mast base to bow and a hoisting line back to a sheet winch the mast could be raised and lowered single handed and the boat launched and retrieved likewise. The cable on the winch had a 2:1 block on the end of it to lessen the winding load.

Hi Regilkent

Have you considered a Macgregor 26

Plenty of room inside and ticks most of your boxes

Regards Don

Hi Regilkent, Lot of good advices. But to pick the boat to suit you is not easy task.
Take you through my experience , 35 years ago I bought Adventure 7, great boat
enclose head, long fix keel, set up on my own and went sailing.
A few ears ago I bought Aquarius the same length , the same fix keel but there is no way
I can set up and go saling. Keep it in marina on hard stand whitch take 15 min. to launch
and go saling but cost 2k annualy. 2 years later need to transfer from Mel. to Yeppoon.
Purchased, I through a good towing vehicle, 4 tons rated turbo diesel.
Normal consumption 11l - city. took me 4 days 18 litres and a few times I reach 90km speed,
mostly sitying on 75km/ h. Why, the boat is 2 tons, sure but empty, Well all together
with trailer 3 tons. Well the boat is great, has sail Bass Strait, took it to Yellow Patch
wouldn't hesitate to sail East Coast to Lizard, but towing it, out of question
unles I have Cruiser100 or BT 50 . The picture is NSW ...West Wyalong

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cisco said..

If you don't have it already I suggest putting a one tonne rear axle under the back of the panno.

Thanks cisco , it has been part of the plan and I already have one from a XG longreach ute to swap over
Frankenwhinch really rocks once you get over voltage drop issues
I agree Don a mac would possibly suit weight and space wise but comes with a hefty price tag and compromised sailing performance (imho)
Just to compare my smallish TS layout i include the following pics of the tight but cosy interior and adequate cockpit.

She looks like a sturdy well equipped cruiser madmission. What is the Apple thingy just inside the companionway??

I notice your Autohelm hand bearing compass. Great little thing if you can keep them working. I have had three of them that have buggered up.

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cisco said..
She looks like a sturdy well equipped cruiser madmission. What is the Apple thingy just inside the companionway??

I notice your Autohelm hand bearing compass. Great little thing if you can keep them working. I have had three of them that have buggered up.

The apple sticker is on a wired autohelm remote it is handy in the companionway since that photo I added a wireless (madman) remote and run them both for added flexibility.
The autohelm hand bearing compass is great I have had it many years the only issue is I have not been able to get the sighting LED's to work otherwise great tool
It's difficult to imagine a family of 4 doing the pilgrimage to , around and back to the Whitsunday's on these boats but plenty did from '70s to the 90's , I haven't found anyone who likes the coffin berths and am sure there are some mentally scared from being made to sleep in them
For my situation , mostly solo its not a bad compromise for the time I get to use it
My wife supports a step up to a noelex but I doubt she appreciates the implications of a bigger , more expensive boat
This morning we became grandparents for the first time so perhaps a change is inevitable

Sorry for lack of responses for a couple days. Family etc. Plus I lost an almost finished post...

So the SC23 is out due to too heavy. Ditto the sister models. And tandem trailers are a giveaway for other types possibly (but not always) also too heavy.

Money definitely is an issue, so the Noelex is off the list! Original budget was $10K but prepared to go a bit above this for a boat that we can go straight to playing with, no work or additional costs. I'd get the same debate grief over each item that I would for one single overspend, so there's value in getting one that's completely sorted. That and time...

Fair observation @Ramona. Also need for screens because the Sandy Straits are big sandfly areas. So I'm giving a lot of consideration to flow-through, pop-tops, ability to screen openings. Ability to tent off the whole cockpit is an interesting consideration.

I'm amazed at how hard it is to find full boat and trailer weights - these are trailer sailers after all, so that's kind of an important bit of data... When talking to a guy from JCM, he agreed and said they have a website remake under way that will include exactly that.

@madmission your Boomerang 20 looks good and a nice balance. Plus light enough for the Forester even fully loaded for a getaway. Can't see how you shut the doors on the van after winching it up though... I'm guessing that is the mast raising stay? The "coffin berths" as you call them look more roomy than on a number of other models. Does that runner for the main sheet get in the way?

To camp on board I'm assuming every bit of length I can get without going too heavy is a positive, provided the cabin layout works well. Some seem to lean towards very large cockpits at the expense of cabin space. Great for day sailing, not so great for several nights on board.

@SandS mentioned Farr 750, but I'm only finding info on 740 Sport, 6000 and 7500. 6000 and 7500 have stub keels so no good for beaching. Haven't seen any for sale yet.

So the shortlist seems to be:

Boomerang 20 Seems to have a large cockpit. Is it at expense of cabin space? One for sale in Vic http://www.tradeboats.com.au/detail/marine/boats/boomerang/20-trailer-sailer/352993
Old fashioned colour scheme: www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/shoalwater/sail-boats/boomerang-20-trailer-sailer-sailboat-yacht/1103220970
See any problems with these ones? www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/burleigh-waters/sail-boats/boomerang-trailer-sailer-6-5m-urgent-sale-/1096903888
www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/shailer-park/sail-boats/trailer-sailer-boomerang-20-with-tandem-trailer-and-4stroke-8hp/1103966121
This one looks interesting - heavier perhaps? yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/boomerang-b63/162310

Careel 18 I quite like this one: yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/trailer-boats/compass-careel-18/179152

Careel 22 Unsure of weight of this one, but it looks like all the extra length went into the cockpit rather than the cabin? Love how the galley slides away into one of the "coffins", but that does seem to make it more of a make do galley than functional.

Timpenny 670 Some have poptop. About 1200kgs with trailer. Some for sale here: www.timpenny.com.au/yachts-for-sale No details: yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/trailer-boats/timpenny-model-670/165519
Looks nice, needs furnishing, really like the bulkhead/privacy, quality tandem trailer with rollers: yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/trailer-boats/timpenny-670/171363

Austral 20 1400kgs with trailer. Possibly not flat bottom?

Spacesailer 20 One for sale in Vic, no trailer info: yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/spacesailer-20/161784

Ultimate 18 Seems a good cabin and cockpit design for the shorter boat. Split pushpit would allow easy boarding from the water - especially after diving. Poptop would be easy to screen. Very tidy unit for the price: yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/trailer-boats/ultimate-18-trailer-sailer-pop-top-swing-keel-mariner-5hp-outb/181266

Windrush Wildfire Haven't found any for sale yet - on the east coast anyway.

Sabre 22 1340 kgs on trailer. Nice but expensive: www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/wishart/sail-boats/sabre-22-for-sale/1103329466 Sunmaid 20? www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/caboolture-area/sail-boats/sunmaid-20-trailer-sailer/1100096833

Sorry about the wall of words.

Madmision- That is one sorted boat!

Coffin Berths- Nah- Quarter berths. I like them. Snug, secure. Its all in the mind. Not as good as saloon berths with lee cloths, but good for sea berths.

You are going to end up with a Castle 650. Nice and light. Dries out, lock down keel.

Rigi

Great to hear you were not scared off by the comments.
Perhaps if you could give an idea of you and your passengers we could give you some better advice

I would suggest having a look at the designs in the flesh and preferably sailing on one before committing take your time and you will get great value in this market

This may be interesting if its legal weight wise note single axle
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/blackburn/sail-boats/careel-22l-46/1103990207

"Can't see how you shut the doors on the van after winching it up though... I'm guessing that is the mast raising stay? "

The barn doors on the pano are great , drop down tailgates dont work and the thing out the front is a prodder for assy kite and pivots up and out the way

"The "coffin berths" as you call them look more roomy than on a number of other models."

Believe me pita for 6'2" fat slug comfy for the smaller ones though

"Does that runner for the main sheet get in the way?"

I set my boat up to sail as efficiently as possible so its a compromise and gives me something to hold onto when things get rough

I will have a look at those B20's and get back to you

Another alternative is a Cole 23 with drop keel. Features a pop top, quarter berth and usable kitchen space. Weight might be an issue tho, cant find any specs at the moment.