Curious to know if any one uses cam cleats when running lines back to the cockpit as opposed to clutches .I was thinking of using a combination of the both with clutches for the halyards and cleats for the reef lines but I'm not sure. The boat is a Compass 28
cheers

The way I see it is that lines come back to winches.
If the winch serves more that one line, there is a clutch before the winch.
The line is sheeted in, clutch is engaged and then the line is removed from the winch.
If you only have one line working on one winch (i.e. halyard or sheet only) you don't need a clutch.
Clutches also give quick release as in spinnaker or spinnaker pole topping lift control.
Clutches are more expensive than cleats.
The jaws and mechanism eventually wear and they do damage the line because it is often gripped at the same position.
Also if you have a strong backpull on the line (i.e. halyard or sheet) a clutch can be released easily.

Cleats are used when you only have one line run to one winch.
The line is sheeted in and then cleated after the winch.
Cleats are cheap, will last for ever and don't damage line.
A line correctly cleated can be released easily even with strong back pull.
Cleats have been around for a long time for a good reason.
With a cleat, you can control the speed that the released line is let out.

So what you require will depend on how your lines are run and the way your winches are set up.

Do you need to actually winch in your reef lines? If not you don't, you don't need clutches for them.
I have no clutches on my boat. But it is a 25 footer with 7 winches.
gary

Garys right, the choice depends on use. I have cleats where the line might need to be released fast without risk of jamming due to a tangle.

I agree with Gary too. I do have some camcleats as well as jammers but high stress stuff always goes to a cleat after the winch. Reefing lines come back through jammers to the winch and then to a cleat as well. Jammers do slip eventually and the levers can catch and pull up accidentally. I have been going to add a couple of cleats to the rear of the cabin top for ages. Properly lined up with the right angle cleats are pretty damn good.

Yes. I use all three on my 28, clutches, cam and jam cleats.

Clutches on the main lines led back to the cabin top winches, cam cleats to control spinnaker uphaul and the furling line and jam cleats on the mast and boom to control reef line and main outhaul and in conjunction with a cam cleat on the stb. side of the cabin top to control the uphaul line for the pole.
The twin control on the pole uphaul line is practical as it makes possible to jam the line while working at the mast and after when l returned to the cockpit use the cam cleat for adjustments.

I was contemplating to employ cam cleats on the boom instead of the jammers but rejected the notion as the jammers work perfectly without moving parts for ages.

My 28 footer was set up for racing before I bought her. Everything comes back to the cockpit.
I've got two winches atop the cabin, one either side of the hatch, each winch has four clutches
in front of it and four clam cleats after it. I've got no idea what they are used for. I don't race.
However I do utilise them for main halyard, lazyjack lines. main downhaul etc, so they don't
go to waste.

Thanks , I do have two existing winches on the mast which will move back to the cockpit. Does anyone recommend a good Clutch ?I don't need top of the line just something that works and is hassle free. I had a look in whitworths yesterday but they only have a limited range

My Top Hat has two small winches on the coach roof. There are three clutches in front of them. Main halyard, Boom Vang and Headsail halyard. Close to the Port winch are three cleats, one for the spinnaker topping lift, one for the spinnaker halyard, one for the furling line. Starboard cleats are for the first and second reefing lines. The traveller has cam cleats, as do the headsail sheets as I don't have self tailing winches, which are mounted on the cockpit combing.

Hi Jay
To convert from mast mounted winches to cabintop position next to companionway (the usual position),
you will need new halyards, blocks mounted at the base of the mast, a method of fitting these blocks to the mast base, turning blocks to bring the lines on a 90 degree turn back to the winches and a cleating system of your choice there.
The winches will need to be removed from the mast and mounted on the cabintop with solid mounting pads inside the cabin and maybe tapered mounts on the cabintop for correct line alignment.

If your halyards are internal, you will have to have a clean exit from the mast down to the mast base block.
This will result in.
1. More cost than your are expecting.
2, More effort in hoisting the fore and mainsails than you are expecting because of the extra turns.
3. More work.

At the moment with mast mounted system, you have the system the Chichester and Knox-Johnson used to sail around the world (admittedly a long time ago).
In a pinch with you present system you can use the boom topping lift as an auxiliary mainsail halyard.
You go to the mast, lower the main. hook the reef cringle onto the reefing horn, pull the luff reef down and cleat off to the boom. If the main gets snagged or doesn't run up or down freely, you are right there.

Beware of the newest sexy gear. Some of the older stuff is better than you think.
If I were you, I would leave it as it is and get really smooth and efficient at using that rig.

gary

PS a bit of clarity

Select to expand quote

garymalmgren said..
Beware of the newest sexy gear. Some of the older stuff is better than you think.
If I were you, I would leave it as it is and get really smooth and efficient at using that rig.

Couldn't agree more. If I could do it on my yacht I would have mast mounted winches for main and genoa halyards. It is possible but low on the list of priorities at the moment.

Will throw a spanner in the works, if you need to use a winch to get the tension on the line use a clutch, if you can hold the line tension in your hand use the cam cleat.

Another spanner - I find mast-mounted winches catch too many lines. However,having the clutches and winch aft means that you have no easy way of working the halyard from the bow, or bouncing the halyard up single-handed. I hate not being able to pull the jib halyard while up at the forestay, so I'm probably going to mount a cleat or clutch on the mast, above the turning block.

On the 28'er I went for a J/24 style system with a cam cleat just below the exit slot for the headsail and kite halyards. That way you can hoist hand over hand while standing at the mast and cleat the halyard off almost automatically. If there's a snarl you can just grab the halyard below the turning block and walk to the bow while still being able to hoist or lower. It's also great for spinnaker work. I'm not sure if there's a cam that will work for the 36'er also obviously one uses the clutch once the halyard is no longer being adjusted. Any ideas?

Spanner here, spanner there, it all makes sense but not on the same boat.
Racing and cruising are two different art forms and honestly l don't give a toss about racing while sailing my yacht single handed. However, l give a big toss about efficient and smooth working of all lines, sheaves, clutches and cleats of all sorts.
Having two independent lots of lines makes my life easier.
One lot goes back to the clutches and winches while the other lot is on the mast.
Two lots of all lines makes sense and l am glad the boat came with all those lines.
The lot on the mast got jam cleats which work perfectly in all conditions with the mast and boom winches. I seldom use the mast lines as the furler and all other control lines for the three halyards plus wang and cunningham are led back to the cockpit leaving the cutter sail halyard and the second jib halyard for the second jib (goosewinged twins) the only ones on the mast which are in regular use. The second spinnaker halyard is seldom touched.

The furler makes going to the bow superfluous but if l got to drop the genoa or get it up again the halyard, which has an extra long tail, is taken out of the clutch and the mast winch above the sheave is used as a turning block so the halyard is in my hands while feeding the genoa into the foil.
I hope it all makes sense as it is a very workable system.

My little cat also has a mix of mast and cockpit. The mast rotates so the halyard winches are on the mast and the small outhaul winch is on the boom with a clutch. No vang due to the wide traveller on a cat.

I am currently working on a system to raise and lower the dagger boards using the cabin top sheet winches and a continuous line.

To do this I will need to install a triple clutch in front of each winch because I have to set the jib before I can use the winch to raise the leeward dagger board. So the jib sheet has to be secured in front of the winch first so the winch is then free to use for the dagger board raise.

And being able to switch on and off the "up" and "down" clutches depending on which way the continuous line is flowing will be something I cant do as easily with a cleat, without ending up with a bit of a tangle.

My boat was a live aboard cruiser for 17 years before I got her,there are only three cam cleats .Traveller and mainsheet , everything else are normal cleats. Four on the mast , six in the cockpit ,three on each side for tying up . The midship cleat is awesome for docking and pivoting backwards around pontoons ( full keel ,turning is some times not an option ) I find they dont wear out,not much maintenance and simple for some one like me . If it ain't broke don't fix it.