I had a couple of wins in the CYCA Winter Series last year and want my boat 'Sea Ya' (a Swarbrick S80) to be as competitive as possible this season.
I am looking for opinions on whether I should replace my 6 HP Toshiba (26 Kilos) with the Toshiba 3 and a half (13 Kilos).
I am considering doing this as I will lighten my boat by 13 Kilos (pros).
What are the cons?

Will it push it?
Not that you are racing in a class but I know endeavours are required to have a 5 hp.

Good day Two Dogs
If I buy the 3 and a half HP for the tender I can then try it on the 26 foot.

S80s race as a class here in the west...they don't even take one aboard. They are completely stripped out.
Wouldn't need much power to push one along either as they are fairly slim/low wetted surface.

Changing the boat mid series could be against the rules, be careful of that.

I raced a Blazer 23 and Space Sailor 24 and won various season championships. Using a lighter motor does give your boat that touch more acceleration as you would expect, but the loss of mass reduces the boats ability to coast in lulls and push through chop. In light small boats the designers of the boat might also have allowed for that weight and moving it might not be guaranteed successful.

We didn't change motor size but instead moved it around. Pre race we always took it off the stern and put it below in the centre of the boat. Sometimes we moved the motor (and Esky) to the windward side of the boat during the race to get the benefit of the weight. The Space Sailor I had dragged its stern with the outboards weight on the back but when the motor was down below it didnt. 0.2 knots probably. Worthwhile over a long race.

If you are that serious make sure everyone on board stands going downwind wearing wind jackets and crouches upwind. And in drifters light a cigarette. Many times we slowly drifted past the others on the strength of the ciggy smoke showing wind direction, then when the wind picks up again suddenly you have a boat length head start

Trek, with respect shifting the engine and esky to windward is illegal.

If you're only talking arbitrary racing then under most systems you should declare the change in the boat and the handicapper may change the handicap, so you're back to square one and may have issues motoring home in a big breeze.

You'd have to be sailing incredibly well for 13kg to be relevant; I know in J/24s which are of similar speed in one nationals the heaviest boat was 3rd and the third heaviest was first, which shows how little it matters. Some handicappers reckon the average boat is sailing about 5% slower than its potential even in steady winds. Dragging an inboard prop is rated about 2% slower and under many systems, not carrying a kite is about 4% slower. So differentials caused by tiny tweaks in performance are vastly less important than just sailing better - roll tacking perfectly, hitting every shift, etc. If you're good enough to worry about 13kg you must have spent many, many hours training in all aspects of sailing. If not, don't worry.

A fast stock S 80 should be going minutes faster than the J/24 you race against (which was second last in the 2016 state titles) and starting on the same time, or very close to, the Peterson 30 Fiction which seems to be kicking ass in your division according to its handicap and elapsed times.

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Chris 249 said..
Trek, with respect shifting the engine and esky to windward is illegal.

If you're only talking arbitrary racing then under most systems you should declare the change in the boat and the handicapper may change the handicap, so you're back to square one and may have issues motoring home in a big breeze.

You'd have to be sailing incredibly well for 13kg to be relevant; I know in J/24s which are of similar speed in one nationals the heaviest boat was 3rd and the third heaviest was first, which shows how little it matters. Some handicappers reckon the average boat is sailing about 5% slower than its potential even in steady winds. Dragging an inboard prop is rated about 2% slower and under many systems, not carrying a kite is about 4% slower. So differentials caused by tiny tweaks in performance are vastly less important than just sailing better - roll tacking perfectly, hitting every shift, etc. If you're good enough to worry about 13kg you must have spent many, many hours training in all aspects of sailing. If not, don't worry.

A fast stock S 80 should be going minutes faster than the J/24 you race against (which was second last in the 2016 state titles) and starting on the same time, or very close to, the Peterson 30 Fiction which seems to be kicking ass in your division according to its handicap and elapsed times.

If the boat was being changed you are right but putting the motor below was not changing the boat it was same in each race. I mentioned careful of that at beginning of my post.

I dont think it can be compared to roll tacking. Roll tacking imparts to energy to the boat. Moving ballast doesnt and is no different to Wild Oats moving its keel and many others pumping water.

I agree the difference 14kg might make is minimal but boat speed comes from getting 0.1kt from 20 things usually and winning means dont ignore anything, although one bad judgement can waste the better boat speed.

So Bundeena boy you are on the money thinking about it.

My 14 ft windrush yacht tender has a 2.5hp Tohatsu uprated to 3.5hp. Remote fuel tank. Has a Korts nozzle and this motor would push any 26 foot yacht about. Korts nozzle is made from a bit of plastic pipe with some carbon fibre and fiberglass cloth layup. Adds very little weight but doubles the thrust.
Remote fuel tank will get some weight out of the ends of the boat.

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Trek said..

Chris 249 said..
Trek, with respect shifting the engine and esky to windward is illegal.

If you're only talking arbitrary racing then under most systems you should declare the change in the boat and the handicapper may change the handicap, so you're back to square one and may have issues motoring home in a big breeze.

You'd have to be sailing incredibly well for 13kg to be relevant; I know in J/24s which are of similar speed in one nationals the heaviest boat was 3rd and the third heaviest was first, which shows how little it matters. Some handicappers reckon the average boat is sailing about 5% slower than its potential even in steady winds. Dragging an inboard prop is rated about 2% slower and under many systems, not carrying a kite is about 4% slower. So differentials caused by tiny tweaks in performance are vastly less important than just sailing better - roll tacking perfectly, hitting every shift, etc. If you're good enough to worry about 13kg you must have spent many, many hours training in all aspects of sailing. If not, don't worry.

A fast stock S 80 should be going minutes faster than the J/24 you race against (which was second last in the 2016 state titles) and starting on the same time, or very close to, the Peterson 30 Fiction which seems to be kicking ass in your division according to its handicap and elapsed times.

If the boat was being changed you are right but putting the motor below was not changing the boat it was same in each race. I mentioned careful of that at beginning of my post.

I dont think it can be compared to roll tacking. Roll tacking imparts to energy to the boat. Moving ballast doesnt and is no different to Wild Oats moving its keel and many others pumping water.

I agree the difference 14kg might make is minimal but boat speed comes from getting 0.1kt from 20 things usually and winning means dont ignore anything, although one bad judgement can waste the better boat speed.

So Bundeena boy you are on the money thinking about it.

Shifting weight like engines and esky to windward is clearly illegal and can cop sailors a 10 year ban from the sport. The rule is RRS 51, which states;

"All movable ballast, including sails that are not set, shall be properly stowed. Water, dead weight or ballast shall not be moved for the purpose of changing trim or stability."

Sails are considered to be "movable ballast" or "dead weight" for the purposes of RRS51, so are motors and eskys. For example, as the Sydney-Hobart protest committee says (see http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/2617079/notice-to-competitors-1.pdf) "The movement of sails for the purpose of altering trim or stability is clearly an attempt to increase a boat's performance without a corresponding increase in rating. Any movement of sails, within the boat, or stacked on deck are in breach of RRS 51." The same source says that "Any movement of sails, within the boat, or stacked on deck are in breach of RRS 51."*

Engines and eskies fall into the same category as sails - you can't move them to alter trim or stability. Taking an outboard off the stern and putting it in the same place every time isn't considered a breach because it's not really "altering" stability if you put it in the same place every time. Moving the outboard from side to side as you tack is a different thing.

The reason the canters and water ballasted boats can do it is because they have a special exemption clause written into the SIs and NoR of the events they do. For example;

Middle Harbour Regatta; "1.2.2 Boats shall request permission from the Race Committee to use movable and/or variable ballast for the purpose of increasing stability. Any such request must be accompanied by full details of the system involved, and any such system will be taken into account in establishing the boats handicap. "

IRC Rule 27.3.1; "A boat may request permission from the Rating Authority to use movable and/or variable ballast for the purpose of increasing stability. The Rating Authority will generally only grant permission to boats specifically and originally designed to carry movable and/or variable ballast and may deny permission without giving any reason.

In the early days of yacht racing they used to have movable ballast. They banned it because everyone hated spending their weekends dragging bags of lead shot or gravel from side to side every tack. We'd all hate it if we had to drag the outboard to windward every tack.

Yes, winning is made up of many little things but spending more time getting the big things right is more important than trying to save 13kg on a 2000kg boat.


* Later modified by specific instructions in the Hobart.

Sail stacking? Nah!

Sailing is a self policing sport.. Do whatever you like until someone gets the ****s enough to protest... bending or breaking the rules within reason is the name of the game and strategy..

I recon you have the heavier motor and move it around below decks all you want and keep it it all out of sight and no one will know and therefore will not really be able to protest... and if they do say they were going below checking a phone or something like that that gives reasonable doubt.

Oh oh "sails shall be properly stowed" that means 99% of boats are illegally using ballast. Using phone would be a no no, someone would say you were getting external assistance!
But movable ballast is acceptable, given permission from race commitee. A technicality as proven in regattas world wide.

Deleted

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patto1987 said..
Sailing is a self policing sport.. Do whatever you like until someone gets the ****s enough to protest... bending or breaking the rules within reason is the name of the game and strategy..

I recon you have the heavier motor and move it around below decks all you want and keep it it all out of sight and no one will know and therefore will not really be able to protest... and if they do say they were going below checking a phone or something like that that gives reasonable doubt.

Saved for posterity.

Self policing doesn't work if the honest people have to sail against cheats. And what do you get when you cheat - a plastic trophy. You value your integrity so little that you'd cheat for a little trophy?

What else do you do when racing? Miss a mark? Turn the motor on if no one can see it on a long race?

Do you guys have the same attitude when you're selling your stuff on this forum? Is it OK to lie in ads?

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Trek said..
Oh oh "sails shall be properly stowed" that means 99% of boats are illegally using ballast. Using phone would be a no no, someone would say you were getting external assistance!
But movable ballast is acceptable, given permission from race commitee. A technicality as proven in regattas world wide.

No. Sails are allowed to be stowed where you want as long as they are not moved around to change trim or stability while racing. Don't insult the rest of us by claiming we are cheats.

It's not "a technicality" to get permission. Getting permission allows the RC to refuse permission or to change your handicap if they allow you to shift ballast. If you didn't get permission you were breaking an important rule.

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Chris 249 said..

Trek said..
Oh oh "sails shall be properly stowed" that means 99% of boats are illegally using ballast. Using phone would be a no no, someone would say you were getting external assistance!
But movable ballast is acceptable, given permission from race commitee. A technicality as proven in regattas world wide.

No. Sails are allowed to be stowed where you want as long as they are not moved around to change trim or stability while racing. Don't insult the rest of us by claiming we are cheats.

It's not "a technicality" to get permission. Getting permission allows the RC to refuse permission or to change your handicap if they allow you to shift ballast. If you didn't get permission you were breaking an important rule.

No one has called anyone a cheat but your claim that taking the outboard off the stern is illegal did. I'm glad you read further and got the facts!

The sail stacking is interesting. Yachting Australia approved it because they said "everyone does it". Then they cancelled their approval because they thought it might break an IRC rule.

How does the RC decide who can use movable ballast and who cant. An amendments to the 2017 S2H sailing instructions said "a boat with movable ballast may move that ballast". There is no mention of asking for permission from RC or anyone?

If its not a technicality then the RC is empowered with giving some boats an unfair advantage. Especially when they add the usual "and the RC doesnt have to give a reason".

I've only ever put in one protest in my life, only been protested twice and never been DSQ'd so I'm no sea lawyer. Yes, I'm big on us all following the rules and not cheating. What's wrong with that?

EDIT - There's clearly confusion here. I have NEVER said that moving an outboard off the stern pre-race is cheating. However, as I have clearly said several times, moving an outboard to windward during a race is different and it IS illegal unless specifically allowed by an alteration in the rules.

Rule 51 is in Part 4 of the RRS. Part 4 rules "apply only to boats racing." * A boat is only racing after the preparatory signal. There is therefore nothing stopping anyone from moving their outboard off the stern or putting sails on the cabin floor in the usual way; ie before the P flag goes up**. However once the P flag is hoisted, a boat is by definition racing and therefore you can't shift sails or the engine to affect trim or stability.The rules against shifting things like outboards or tool kits is there for a very good reason - because sailing would be a lot less fun if some of the crew had to stay down below, dragging heavy gear from side to side and smashing up the boat as they did it.

PS - No, using a mobile phone is not outside assistance unless it is done to obtain an advantage and break the rules. See the famous protest against Loyal in the 2011 Hobart for Cocko's chat to the ABC helicopter for an example.

* There's an exception for R 55, which is irrelevant.
** Obviously class, safety or rating rules still apply, which is irrelevant in most mixed fleet yacht club racing.

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Trek said..


No one has called anyone a cheat but your claim that taking the outboard off the stern is illegal did. I'm glad you read further and got the facts!

No, Trek, I did not have to "read further to get the facts". I NEVER claimed that taking the outboard off the stern before the race is cheating - in fact I clearly said that it was not cheating.

However, moving the outboard to windward during a race to get the benefit of the weight is illegal and I have clearly noted the difference between moving the outboard before a race and moving it to windward during the race. It's a bit like using the engine to push the boat - it's fine up to the prep signal but not after that.

In the Hobart the use of movable ballast is controlled because the main events are under IRC and ORC ratings, and those rating rules have rules for movable ballast and increase the rating of boats that use it. IRC has always had been a secret rule, even when it was new and called CHS.

The simple fact is that moving the motor to the windward side of the boat during the race to get the benefit of the weight is not allowed.

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Trek said..


We didn't change motor size but instead moved it around. Pre race we always took it off the stern and put it below in the centre of the boat. Sometimes we moved the motor (and Esky) to the windward side of the boat during the race to get the benefit of the weight.

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Chris 249 said..

patto1987 said..
Sailing is a self policing sport.. Do whatever you like until someone gets the ****s enough to protest... bending or breaking the rules within reason is the name of the game and strategy..

I recon you have the heavier motor and move it around below decks all you want and keep it it all out of sight and no one will know and therefore will not really be able to protest... and if they do say they were going below checking a phone or something like that that gives reasonable doubt.

Saved for posterity.

Self policing doesn't work if the honest people have to sail against cheats. And what do you get when you cheat - a plastic trophy. You value your integrity so little that you'd cheat for a little trophy?

What else do you do when racing? Miss a mark? Turn the motor on if no one can see it on a long race?

Do you guys have the same attitude when you're selling your stuff on this forum? Is it OK to lie in ads?

Everyone breaks the rules one way or another.. so everyone cheats at some point..

The last protest I was involved in, I was quite clearly in the wrong and didn't give way or do a penalty turn etc. The guy who protested however had no clue about how to protest properly and I won the protest arguing it wasn't valid and the committee agreed..

Was it fair that I didn't get penalized for not giving that guy the right way.. (Probably not in all fairness).. but their is rules about how to lodge a protest and he didn't follow them so why should I penalized when he didn't follow those rules? Would he value his integrity so low that his happy to win a protest by breaking the rules to get a little plastic trophy? Did i value mine so low i was happy to (not) win some trophy on a technicality.. clearly yes lol..

Onya Patto! The last protest I should have been involved in was when I was one race away from winning the club championship at the time when an older skipper did an illegal tack in front of me forcing me to tack away. I came second in that race and lost the annual club championship after winning the Winter and Spring Series where I was at the time.

Lucky I sailed in the spirit of the racing and didnt ram him and didnt zealously pull the rules and protest him (I dont think we ever carried a red flag ever) and ruin the poor guys short remaining life That cup would have looked good in my garage with all the others though

The motor argument is dumb anyway. We'd better now get onto the sus aspect of one boat with a 120kg sail trimmer shifting his weight versus a boat with a 50kg sail trimmer shifting his weight. Or the boat where the 120kg sail trimmer miraculously doesnt show up on wind less days. Makes a 14 kg motor pretty insignificant.

Patto you must be taking the piss, surely you can't be that stupid

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andy59 said..
Patto you must be taking the piss, surely you can't be that stupid

I think I get Pattos point. If one benefits by use of the rules one dies by the rules. A bit like our dual citizen politicians.

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Trek said..


The motor argument is dumb anyway.

It's only dumb if you'd like it if the only way to win in heavy airs was to cart 250kg of gear to windward each tack, like they used to. Most of us don't want to go back to the old style of having special lockers to throw weights into, and having to pay your crew because no one will spend the afternoon sweating and bouncing down below while dragging heavy weights from side to side.

By the way, as noted earlier I've only ever put in one protest in my life so I don't "pull the rules". However, if no one pointed out that shifting the motor to windward while racing was illegal then someone reading this forum could have done it and received a 3 to 10 year suspension.

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patto1987 said..
Sailing is a self policing sport.. Do whatever you like until someone gets the ****s enough to protest... bending or breaking the rules within reason is the name of the game and strategy..

I recon you have the heavier motor and move it around below decks all you want and keep it it all out of sight and no one will know and therefore will not really be able to protest... and if they do say they were going below checking a phone or something like that that gives reasonable doubt.

I see your point. I never crewed on a boat where the sails were stowed on the leeward side! And thats a lot of boats in several countries.
Sailing Australia passed a rule allowing sail stacking because "everyone does it". Says it all doesnt it!! Regardless of the fact they later reversed their reversal.

And the boat competing with the 14kg motor mover has a 100kg heavier sail trimmer moving his weight around. Who's got the unfair advantage? The guy moving his 14kg motor or the guy with the 120kg sail trimmer?

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Chris 249 said..

Trek said..


The motor argument is dumb anyway.

It's only dumb if you'd like it if the only way to win in heavy airs was to cart 250kg of gear to windward each tack, like they used to. Most of us don't want to go back to the old style of having special lockers to throw weights into, and having to pay your crew because no one will spend the afternoon sweating and bouncing down below while dragging heavy weights from side to side?

By the way, as noted earlier I've only ever put in one protest in my life so I don't "pull the rules". However, if no one pointed out that shifting the motor to windward while racing was illegal then someone reading this forum could have done it and received a 3 to 10 year suspension.

Good point> However, if no one pointed out that shifting the motor to windward while racing was illegal then someone reading this forum could have done it and received a 3 to 10 year suspension.

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patto1987 said..


Everyone breaks the rules one way or another.. so everyone cheats at some point..

Really? I know I have some arch rivals who have never broken a rule as far as I can see. It may depend on what you sail and where you are in the fleet.

There's also a clear difference between inadvertently breaking a rule like not having the boat's name written in large enough printing or getting too enthusiastic about pumping, and illegally moving weights to windward on purpose. That's recognised by the fact that one of them gets you a warning to fix it, one of them often just gets you a 720, and the other often gets you a 3 to 10 year ban.


(I'm leaving myself out of it because obviously I'm biased about myself)

Interesting (off) topic discussion. RRS 2017-2020 are the base level of rules for every race. Each one design class may have its own set of rules. Every regatta will have their own set of rules (Sailing Instructions) that may make a change to those base and one-design rules, where allowed.
The RRS allow you to have a 150kg trimmer any time you like, unless your class rules (such as Tasars) that say you have to sail the whole event with that person. But the RRS rules also say that you can't move any ballast item (non crew) from one side to the other and you cant use electric winches, autopilots, etc unless the SI's say so (such Sydney Hobart).

I sailed in Canberra recently and after the bottom mark a faster boat managed to get an inside overlap on me. As he got next to me, he called out 'Mast Abeam'. We all laughed. He then sheepishly said, is that rule not around now?

Playing any game is a matter of knowing the rules and using them to your advantage. A few people are ignorant, or stuck in a time warp or don't care about the rules. But at the pointy end, the good guys know the rules very well (perhaps Wild Oats in the last S2H is an exception). There are even clubs who sail by ColRegs for those who don't want to know. But if you win a protest because the other guy does not know how to protest, then you have won fairly. He needs to learn how to protest.

But I don't believe that anyone should go out with the attitude of winning at all costs. Otherwise you have joined the ranks of a politician.

I had a mate that was a world class sailor.

When he was sailing J24's we was "well built" but the rest of the crew were quite light. this worked well with the weight restrictions, except for the strongest winds - but in heavy conditions the "lightweights" would wear lots of heavy jumpers that miraculous got very wet, thus adding quite a lot of "movable ballast".

Of course it made it hard work for the lightweights so there is a trade off.

Yipes,

do you racing types ever wonder why the sailing, but not racing, people have absolutely no interest in yacht racing?

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even just removing the motor and storing inside in one place , would not be within the rules . most categories require this . see below


3.24.4

If using outboard motor, provision for mounting

Outboard motor mounted at all times

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LMY said..
Yipes,

do you racing types ever wonder why the sailing, but not racing, people have absolutely no interest in yacht racing?

For one, I know plenty of non-racers who are interested in racing.

Secondly, this thread is nothing like as angry as some of the ones I've seen amongst cruisers, or amongst touring cyclists, or amongst non-racing wooden boat owners or non-racing windsurfers.

Thirdly, letting one thread decide one's attitude towards tens of thousands of other people isn't very logical.