The maxis in the SYD-Hobart all have cutter rig plus an inner staysail. Looking a lot like the racing yachts of yesteryear. Question- do these boats have diamond stays/ jumper struts to take the extra load on the mast, or do they have running back stays?

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Yara said..
The maxis in the SYD-Hobart all have cutter rig plus an inner staysail. Looking a lot like the racing yachts of yesteryear. Question- do these boats have diamond stays/ jumper struts to take the extra load on the mast, or do they have running back stays?

Running back stays for sure with the maxis I think they just utilise the throw up everything and go theory until the conditions turn to reducing sail area. Anyway glad I'm at anchor in a 25 to 30 knot southerly sea breaze behind a island!

Yara,
I don't know if it is the same across the different boats? My CF rig is your normal dual spreader with a D1 D2. No diamonds or jumpers or backstay and we run an inner forestay that aligns with the upper spreaders.
I did have the option of adding a running backstay to this rig without diamonds or jumpers needed, but I was confidently told by Structures I didn't need them to do the Hobart, ballsy statement. I'd be downsizing early though.

Why are people apprehensive about running backstays?
Yes, it needs extra attention, yes, it is more complicated than a sloop rig but it has advantages as well.
The rig can be less complicated and so cheaper to maintain and replace.
When l was sailing on ' 'Impeccable' l was the crew who looked after the runners.
It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple.

On my old Adams 28 l had a twin spreader, cutter rig with runners and l was single handing most of the time. No problems there either.
The VOR yachts had runners as well, l think.

I like runners SirG except when I'm solo. Then I really don't like them.

Fine if you have a man running the runners I woul prefer a backstay that can just pull on ease off.

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sirgallivant said..
Why are people apprehensive about running backstays?
Yes, it needs extra attention, yes, it is more complicated than a sloop rig but it has advantages as well.
The rig can be less complicated and so cheaper to maintain and replace.
When l was sailing on ' 'Impeccable' l was the crew who looked after the runners.
It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple.

On my old Adams 28 l had a twin spreader, cutter rig with runners and l was single handing most of the time. No problems there either.
The VOR yachts had runners as well, l think.

From what I remember looking at the runner's on rahpsody when using them to windward you would have been able to leave both pulled on. They were pretty far forward not at the stern so you would be able to dump the main and not hit the runner. Also you would have a bit of lee way if not fast at getting the windward one on fast.
Traditional runners would be a pain in the ass cruising .

Best position on the crew - Leeward runner trimmer

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sirgallivant said..
Why are people apprehensive about running backstays?
Yes, it needs extra attention, yes, it is more complicated than a sloop rig but it has advantages as well.
The rig can be less complicated and so cheaper to maintain and replace.
When l was sailing on ' 'Impeccable' l was the crew who looked after the runners.
It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple.

On my old Adams 28 l had a twin spreader, cutter rig with runners and l was single handing most of the time. No problems there either.
The VOR yachts had runners as well, l think.

I think you answered your own question!

"It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple."

Solo sailors don't need the agro. Resale of old racers with runners is dismal.

Ok, very different rigging set ups being discussed here.
The big S2H boats run a IFS for reaching sails only and therefore don't need runners to pull against the IFS.
As for the actual runners, they are top mast running backstay, very different from the old IOR runners.
These boats have no backstay due to the square top main so the runners do the job of the backstay as well as tensioning the forestay.

Runners on a MH inline spreader rig with IFS are pretty much essential. Not only do they stop the rig pumping fwd in big seas but they give you IFS tension for heavy upwind sailing.

On a rig like Shaggy's, depending on what you are using your IFS for you can get away with them but I have found it difficult to keep IFS tension in high winds without them as you don't usually tension your D2/intermediate shrouds as much as your caps anz lowers.

Complicated subject but I like them on cruising boats.
A couple of hints.....
- suggest changing our wire runners for dyneema but check back of spreaders first as wire wears at these and makes them razor sharp. Dyneema won't damage your mast and sail
- don't rely on a small purchase system to tension your runners. Setup to windward sheet winch as you need to be able to crank on.

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Ramona said..

sirgallivant said..
Why are people apprehensive about running backstays?
Yes, it needs extra attention, yes, it is more complicated than a sloop rig but it has advantages as well.
The rig can be less complicated and so cheaper to maintain and replace.
When l was sailing on ' 'Impeccable' l was the crew who looked after the runners.
It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple.

On my old Adams 28 l had a twin spreader, cutter rig with runners and l was single handing most of the time. No problems there either.
The VOR yachts had runners as well, l think.

I think you answered your own question!

"It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple."

Solo sailors don't need the agro. Resale of old racers with runners is dismal.

Horrible things. When they get stuffed up the rig has a good chance of coming down.
A S2H boat did exactly that in the Derwent a few years ago.
I did a Coffs race years ago on a Navy Swarbrick with runners. A proper pain in the .....
MB has have an inner forestay which we attached within 10% of the mast height from the backstay attachment point at the top of the mast. No runner needed.

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sirgallivant said..
Why are people apprehensive about running backstays?
Yes, it needs extra attention, yes, it is more complicated than a sloop rig but it has advantages as well.
The rig can be less complicated and so cheaper to maintain and replace.
When l was sailing on ' 'Impeccable' l was the crew who looked after the runners.
It was a precision operation, especially in higher winds but so be it. It kept the rigging relatively simple.

On my old Adams 28 l had a twin spreader, cutter rig with runners and l was single handing most of the time. No problems there either.
The VOR yachts had runners as well, l think.

I didn't realise you sailed on Impeccable. You guys did really, really well in the long races!!!!!

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rumblefish said..
Ok, very different rigging set ups being discussed here.
The big S2H boats run a IFS for reaching sails only and therefore don't need runners to pull against the IFS.
As for the actual runners, they are top mast running backstay, very different from the old IOR runners.
These boats have no backstay due to the square top main so the runners do the job of the backstay as well as tensioning the forestay.

Runners on a MH inline spreader rig with IFS are pretty much essential. Not only do they stop the rig pumping fwd in big seas but they give you IFS tension for heavy upwind sailing.

On a rig like Shaggy's, depending on what you are using your IFS for you can get away with them but I have found it difficult to keep IFS tension in high winds without them as you don't usually tension your D2/intermediate shrouds as much as your caps anz lowers.

Complicated subject but I like them on cruising boats.
A couple of hints.....
- suggest changing our wire runners for dyneema but check back of spreaders first as wire wears at these and makes them razor sharp. Dyneema won't damage your mast and sail
- don't rely on a small purchase system to tension your runners. Setup to windward sheet winch as you need to be able to crank on.

Please explain: IFS and MH. Ahh- Inner Fore Stay, but what is MH? Silly me, Mast Head. Thought these were abbreviations for some new super sophisticated technology. But then when you have a cutter rig plus an IFS, which one is the real IFS?

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Yara said..

rumblefish said..
Ok, very different rigging set ups being discussed here.
The big S2H boats run a IFS for reaching sails only and therefore don't need runners to pull against the IFS.
As for the actual runners, they are top mast running backstay, very different from the old IOR runners.
These boats have no backstay due to the square top main so the runners do the job of the backstay as well as tensioning the forestay.

Runners on a MH inline spreader rig with IFS are pretty much essential. Not only do they stop the rig pumping fwd in big seas but they give you IFS tension for heavy upwind sailing.

On a rig like Shaggy's, depending on what you are using your IFS for you can get away with them but I have found it difficult to keep IFS tension in high winds without them as you don't usually tension your D2/intermediate shrouds as much as your caps anz lowers.

Complicated subject but I like them on cruising boats.
A couple of hints.....
- suggest changing our wire runners for dyneema but check back of spreaders first as wire wears at these and makes them razor sharp. Dyneema won't damage your mast and sail
- don't rely on a small purchase system to tension your runners. Setup to windward sheet winch as you need to be able to crank on.

Please explain: IFS and MH. Ahh- Inner Fore Stay, but what is MH? Silly me, Mast Head. Thought these were abbreviations for some new super sophisticated technology. But then when you have a cutter rig plus an IFS, which one is the real IFS?

Ok, usually no more than 4 forestays on a masthead rig
Forestay, foremost stay to masthead and is only permanent forestay
Solent stay, one end (usually top end) joins close to forestay.
Inner forestay, usually parallel to forestay, top end to top end spreader base
Baby stay, close to mast, for prebend control and no sails set off it

Chris, yes, l was sailing on Johnny Walkers boat in his last season just around MH races. I was not one of his original S/H crew! Nevertheless it was a wonderful experience.
RIP JW!

Two Dogs, yes, you remember correctly, and it had an adjustable back stay. The runners were spectra and only applied when the cutter stay was employed. Beating into the wind sloop rigged l did not have to use the runners just pull on the back stay to firm up the fore stay.

Of course, it is a world of difference on a larger yacht and it all depends on the rigging as Rumblefish posted (+1) !

Shaggy, on your yacht, l do not wonder, you dislike runners. There is a pharsec distance btwn a Pogo and an Adams 28. It is a bit like Phar Lap vs a Clydesdale.