Hi all

Went for a sail on a Sailmaster 845 yesterday similar to mine that a gent down here has just purchased and it has a baby stay (mine has not got one)

It has a quick release fitting on the deck and didn't have a great deal of tension on it

Going about was slow because the head sail kept getting caught on the baby stay and i was tempted to unclip it from the deck and clip it to a pad eye at the base of the mast but i was not 100 % sure that i was not needed

It was only blowing 10-15 knots with the occasional stronger gust and the mast is a fairly solid section and we were only using head sail and mainsail

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Regards Don

Some rigs have these inner forestays so they can use them for a storm jib or cutter rig. They normally also require running backstays which attach to the mast at the same location as the inner forestay. There is never any tension on this inner frosty and it is not required to hold up the rig and can be released and tied back onto the mast.

If there was tension on this inner forestay it would bow the mast forward (not good) unless you also had the running backstay tensioned all the time. But running back stays have to be continually released as you tack (get them away from the boom) so normally only used when you have a sail attached to the inner forestay.

I know of boats that put a sail on the inner forestay first before deploying the headsail as this helps prevent the headsail getting snagged when tacking. Of course this means you need double the deck hardware to run both sails at the same time.

My boat has an inner forstay but it is permanently attached with a roller furler fitted. It is a cruising boat and would not be suitable for multiple tacks when racing around the cans. One of the benefits of having a detachable forestay is that when not in use, it can be put away to make tacking easy. I normally roll my head sail in a bit when tacking to stop it getting snagged on the cutter rig. I have talked to some guys (who have cutter rigs) about this and some of them normally jibe to go about. I do not jibe my boat unless it is very light conditions and avoid this manure if possible. I've seen too many near misses with loose main sheet ropes and heads in the wrong place to continually warrant the risk.

I'm not sure if this information is true for your boat but it may help.

Hi Donk. I have an inner forestay too that got in the way. I think it was Cisco who said
to put it away.....so I did. I tied it to the base of mast and now it's so much easier to tack. Hope this helps.

My understanding is that in most cases, the baby-stay is there to stabilise the mast and maintain the correct bend. It may only be necessary in heavy weather or big seas. Given the significant disadvantages (when tacking, also taking up space on the foredeck) you can be sure the designer wouldn't have put it there without a very good reason. And while people do use them for additional sails, in many cases that may not have been the original design intention. You certainly wouldn't want to put a storm jib there without also adding running backstays to properly support the mast.

Hi Donk,
I have a baby stay on my rig. I only have single inline lower shrouds so the babystay pulls a preload/bend into the mast to stop pumping. Having an adjustable babystay and an adjustable backstay allows the forestay tension to be easily adjusted . If I where to have double lowers it would be harder to change forestay tension and keep the mast looking good especially on a large mast section. Some rigs that use babystays also have checkstays to oppose its tension
The boat sails without the babystay but the mast will pump as loads increase and as sea state roughens.
I also have an inner stay for a staysail, that one is opposed by runners

Don't confuse a baby stay with an inner forestay. A baby stay is not intended to run a sail, it is to stop the mast from pumping especially in heavy weather. The standard S&S34 has a baby stay.
The problem with disconnecting it is, will you be able to reconnect it when the wind builds and it is needed. If you never (that is never ever) go sailing in anything over 15 kts you could probably disconnect it safely. I know from my experience that I can never confidently get wind strength right and have been caught in stiff breezes when not expected.
An inner forestay does not always need running back stays. If the stay attached less than 10% of the distance from the base of the mast and the top stay fitting the existing back stay will take the loads.

HI Donk,
I run an inner forestay that is removable for running a staysail.
Tension is adjustable.
No runners or backstay opposing, but the mast/shrouds are really stiff.

We run it for changing down gears from the headsail as we can't partially furl the headsail.
The staysail ls on hanks on a halyard that enters the mast at the same point.

It does foul the big headsail a bit when tacking.

Overall, I love the concept, the whole setup works really well.
SB

I have seen a few UFO34s with a baby stay attached to a track leading back to the base of the mast. The baby stay can be released and slid back to the mast out of the way, then retention from the cockpit by pulling it forward through a block and clutch. Some s&s 34s have a block and tackle at the bottom of the babystay. You can let it slack and feed it some rope to bring the babystay back to the mast and then tension it by pulling it tight when you have got the rest of the rig trimmed or have gone through the tack.

My Carter 33 has a baby stay fixed to the mast halfway between the two spreaders and a block a tackle fixed to an eye on the deck as shown below. Under the deck is another eye which is connected to a cable and turnbuckle down to the hull, only problem is that it makes it difficult to get into the v-berth so it is always disconnected and I am yet to remember to re-connect when sailing, fortunately we haven't hit heavy weather as yet but need to work out a way to remind myself before I get in trouble. The PVC conduit shown at the top of the photo slides down to cover the block and tackle to protect the headsail and I always partly furl before tacking so that the sheets clear the forestay. However the last time I sailed I think pulled in too much sail and had a brain snap in the turn and went into irons, was thinking if I had kept the headsail full it might have pulled the boat around and I wouldn't have had to start the engine. Any thoughts on this?

My Mottle 33 had a baby stay and same thing, it made taking tacking a pain because the jig/genoa would get jammed on it.

After short deliberation I took it off. The mast stayed there and tacking was great.

Maybe it was meant to contribute to the mast bend, if it did the improvement in tacking speed (we were racing) made it worth the sacrifice. The only risk factor I could see was that if the forestay broke there was no backup to stop the mast coming down. But the rigging was new and that never happened.

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..
Hi all

Went for a sail on a Sailmaster 845 yesterday similar to mine that a gent down here has just purchased and it has a baby stay (mine has not got one)

It has a quick release fitting on the deck and didn't have a great deal of tension on it

Going about was slow because the head sail kept getting caught on the baby stay and i was tempted to unclip it from the deck and clip it to a pad eye at the base of the mast but i was not 100 % sure that i was not needed

It was only blowing 10-15 knots with the occasional stronger gust and the mast is a fairly solid section and we were only using head sail and mainsail

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Regards Don

Perhaps it has a stay sail set up when new Donk similar you mine the H28s has several foresails including a stay sail
Ive removed the sail track off the fore deck while I'm painting


I realize you boats a sloop and the masts set back further perhaps they use the Genoa lines to set a small foresail off the baby stay .
These boats were sold with out Furlers back then I think I have a selection of 4 sails up front

No. 1 27.5 sqm
No. 2 *21.1 sqm
No. 3 * 17.7 sqm
No. 4 10.54 sqm
I think Ill be refitting the sail track as it would be good for for a storm sail and a stay sail when I'm lazier than I am right now

I have a baby stay. I made a plastic conduit cover for it with plastic bearings made from a chopping board. Works fine.

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..
Hi all

Went for a sail on a Sailmaster 845 yesterday similar to mine that a gent down here has just purchased and it has a baby stay (mine has not got one)

It has a quick release fitting on the deck and didn't have a great deal of tension on it

Going about was slow because the head sail kept getting caught on the baby stay and i was tempted to unclip it from the deck and clip it to a pad eye at the base of the mast but i was not 100 % sure that i was not needed

It was only blowing 10-15 knots with the occasional stronger gust and the mast is a fairly solid section and we were only using head sail and mainsail

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Regards Don

Hi Donk
You may find the inner forestay is there for when you are on a third reef to prevent the mast from inverting
Al

Donk its hard to know never found a lot of info on the sail master

came across these a little bit of reading for you

news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19760910&id=9e1UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UJIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4048,2466694&hl=en

news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19761207&id=fU8QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SJIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6762,1972917&hl=en

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Sailing/General/beam-reach-boom-position/?page=2

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..
Hi all

Went for a sail on a Sailmaster 845 yesterday similar to mine that a gent down here has just purchased and it has a baby stay (mine has not got one)

It has a quick release fitting on the deck and didn't have a great deal of tension on it

Going about was slow because the head sail kept getting caught on the baby stay and i was tempted to unclip it from the deck and clip it to a pad eye at the base of the mast but i was not 100 % sure that i was not needed

It was only blowing 10-15 knots with the occasional stronger gust and the mast is a fairly solid section and we were only using head sail and mainsail

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Regards Don

Here's some random thoughts;

1- Babystays on older racing boats normally used to be able to be disconnected easily, because otherwise you can't do a dip-pole gybe. So there's lots of different systems to be seen on older racing boats that will allow them to be disconnected and re-tensioned quickly. I think the standard system was just a shap shackle (for disconnecting) and a 3:1 tackle leading back to a cleat or jammer and then to a winch - nothing high tech or very powerful.

If you have me running bow on a boat like that just wear ear plugs. I have a bad tendency to forget the babystay until I'm on the bow ready for the tripping.

2- If I recall correctly, one reason they were popular is that older masts had larger sections with thinner walls. Such sections would not handle bends as well as modern spars, which have narrower sections and thicker walls and can bend further without buckling. So the old motto was much more about holding the mast in column and these days some people are happy to let them move around. Years ago I was talking to the late great Lou Abrahams who said that the Sydney 38 rig was the most comfortable he had sailed with (even more comfortable than on his steel Freya type or his S&S 42) because it "gave" in a seaway.

3- Personally, I tend to think that if a mast can handle dropping off a swell when a full crew is stacked on the rail and the boat is overpowered with a kevlar/carbon #3 or #4 and a reef or two (and all cruiser/racer rigs should, IMHO) then it should be able to handle sailing around in moderate conditions on flat water under #1 with a shorthanded crew and dacron sails when loads are vastly lower, even without a babystay. If it's going to be marginal in easy conditions then I want it to fall down then, when it's easy to pick up the bits!

4- As others have said, the babystay may just be there to stop inversion under deep reefs or when bouncing offshore. Even some boats like Cole 43s used to have runners and babystays that were basically only used when it got nasty under small sails in the Strait or on the Montague (and it was almost always nasty in the Montague).

Hi all

Thanks for your thoughts and the information and apologies for taking so long to reply (been busy sailing)

It has conduit wrapped around it so I assume the previous owner used to leave it in place but if it was mine I think I would clip it back to the mast base unless it was blowing hard

It hasn't got running back stays and the shroulds look much like mine apart from the extra baby stay

It has a furler and a split fixed backstay wheras mine has hank on headsails and a single fixed backstay to the centre of the transom

Where the stay attaches to the pad eye on the deck it has a pelican type fitting so there is no easy way to tension it when fitted

I guess that partially furling the headsail before going about would be a option as suggested but it would make going about a bit slower

Regards Don