I was wondering how these guys are at turning around the leeward mark? I've heard stock Promos can have issues with steering due to very little weigh on the front end because the pilot is sitting so far back behind the axle . Cutting them down would seem to make maters worse. Are they counter balancing? Any one have any thoughts on this?

www.pbase.com:443/waltercarels/image/152707508

I'm no expert when it comes to designing- but to me, it looks like the mast step is a lot further foreward than the Lefroy Mini design.

possibly that has something to do with it?

recently chook moved the mast foreward on one of his minis, made a huge difference with bigger sails.

I think Chook and Paul are out on the salt at the moment, might be a while before they get back if the wind is good.

stephen

I think it really depends on the surface that you sail on. I first set my class5 up the same as the euro yachts(very little weight on the front wheel) I think this would be OK on beaches but found it down right dangerous on salt. When the wind was up a bit the front end could not get enough traction to get around the corners. I moved my body weight forward a little and the problem went away. I think Paul had the same problem. Hope this helps.

Looks like there is room to shift bodyweight forward 20-30cm?
These look cool. Plan to make one.

I'm pretty sure in the last great Mini event in Belgium the Seagull chopped Promo was wearing ballast on the lower part of the mast www.flickr.com/photos/frogsail-ontour/sets/72157637584050923/page2/

I believe these are just airtrack nano skoots with better seats and a class 5 sail?

what you are seeing here is the difference in the traction that is possible.
what i have found from experience is that on sand the rear wheels get a hell of a lot more traction on sand than on our salt. your clay is better than salt but not as good as sand. walyungups bare spots have great traction but there are gravely bits where it all come es undone.
so the only yacht so far that seems to rech a compromise on all surfaces is the blokart. ,. but that compromise means a loss of top speed (in course racing) not necessarily ultimate speed.
having really great traction at the rear means that you can slap on bigger flatter rigs that are simply faster, and will power you over rougher ground.
the images in west ende look like an awsome speed beach, a real opportunity to really get the small rigs out and playing.
we have a small claypan that is the same clay surface as Ivanpah and we can move our weight right back.
even more so with the cl5. you can sail to windward with tthe front wheel just OFF the ground,only touching down to tack .

Seagull are making LE MINI PROMO looks cool but if it can't steer on salt then I won't build one.

www.landyachting.com/chars/le-mini-promo.html

Ben.

There is your answer Ben. On "veladaterra's" link, the last few photos have dumbbell weights strapped on.
The red yacht in your link, is fitted with an "after market" dogbone weight, strapped to the mast step.

I am using a 6.9 m2 cammed sail on a 5350mm extended carbon mast. IMCS 29.

Yes "sn" is right.
On "Fowl Play" I extended the chassis spine on my new LL Mini by 75mm (The whole seat forward of it's original position by 75mm) and with the adjustable mast step, the actual position of the mast has ended up a further 75mm forward from it's standard position.

The mast has been stood up to only 5 degrees of rake as well. The cammed sails do have a fair bit of mast curve.

The rear axle 35mm x 35mm x 2mm T under the seat was extended by 50mm each side, to a total of 600mm.

It still fits the 5.6 rule with 40mm to spare.

I turns like it's on rails, at any speed, on Lefroy salt.

So Chook on 'Fowl Play' the chassis is 75mm longer this moved your balance point BP forward slightly placing more weight on your front wheel? How many kg? The more weight the better it turns right? but you don't want too much.
Your mast is also 75mm further forward placing more weight on the front wheel?
Your mast rake is 5degrees LLM original is 10degrees. This has moved your CE further forward.

You ran the same mast and sail on your previous yacht 'Saline Bye' with a standard LLM 10degree mast rake.

How do the two yachts compare?

Also noticed there is minimal camber on your rear wheel.

Sorry for all the questions but I like to know not just the how but the why?

I didn't notice the dumbbell strapped to the mast post.


Well you could use it for weight training between race meetings.

Ben.

this is getting down to the point where the yachts are so small that you cant build a yacht to fit everyone, therefore you have to balance with weights.
brilliant!!!!!
would love to see what chookies up to
if you were going to copy the essence of the seagulls, all the pics are there in plain view, no secrets, no special unobtainium chassis's.
maybe I was just a year too early with spirit of stupidity.
there's certainly plenty of ideas to be going on with

Select to expand quote

BenBoulder said..

Seagull are making LE MINI PROMO looks cool but if it can't steer on salt then I won't build one.

www.landyachting.com/chars/le-mini-promo.html

Ben.

Well, after clicking on the link and having a cursory look I do not think anybody could accuse Seagull of not responding to market demand.

The Ludic upon which the Potty closely based would probably have fit the bill for the 5.6 mini rule, but they have come up with a new yacht.

Blokart, if they are going to stay in the business of building and selling land yachts, must be feeling the pressure to come up with something new.

The "One Design" concept has had a good run but in any sport the ultimate recognition comes with it's inclusion in the Olympic Games.

So, WHEN land sailing makes it into the Olympics, which will be the design rule that is adopted???

Select to expand quote

BenBoulder said..

How do the two yachts compare?

It's really been an experiment to see how I can get moving in minimal wind conditions and still be controllable in the higher winds/gusts. I was sick of just sitting round waiting for the wind to improve, or the walk of shame when it quits altogether.
I now only need to get moving at 9kmh and that's enough. I'm then sailing.

"Saline by" really proved that the big sails could be used on such a small chassis (with the help of much ballast from a heavy pilot= 108kgs)
It sort of worked, but the back end kept breaking loose at speed and it wouldn't steer without sliding up forward with the seatbelt under your ribs. The tyre wear on the back was horrendous too.

So the new chassis with the adjustable mast step was built to see how much weight I needed to feed forward.
The 75mm forward shift for the seat came about as I used a fibreglass seat that I had already cut, the mast step cut from, to suit a standard mini.
So it made sense to just extend the spine 75mm and utilize this cut out. I'm fairly tall so the steering pedals were already right up in front of the mast step anyway.


Also noticed there is minimal camber on your rear wheel.

Yes, my yachts have gone from 8 down to 5 degrees of camber. "Saline by" was down to 3 degrees and was holding better when I used a 5.2 m2 sail.
"Landyacht" suggested I go a bit further and they are now 1 degree. This works a treat for my rig. Tyre wear is very even and the back end is nailed to where I want it. When it lets go now, the world spins round big time.
Last time at Lefroy, I ran the left side at 1 degree and the right at 3 degrees for a couple of hours, just to see if I could tell the difference. Yes that's why I was back and forth across the pond on the same track for so long.
There was a marked difference in the tyre noise and the 1 degree wins hands down on grip and = better speed.
I just kept standing the mast up till it cornered well and the back didn't slide at all.

It was a great couple of days to test things out and I tried to get as many people sailing it, for their ideas as well.

Most comments were that 6.9 m2 isn't at all different to the smaller rigs, even in high winds it's very manageable.
The Canadian doctor took a bit of encouragement, but once in it I couldn't get him out.

Hope I've explained it well enough Ben.
I just love altering bits to try and improve. The LL mini is such a brilliant design anyway.

I'm up to number 23 with not a lot of changes from "Fowl play" The main idea is in the mast adjustment area.
I've got the sketch sorted out for adjustable mast rake on the fly.

Thanks Chook,


I was sick of just sitting round waiting for the wind to improve, or the walk of shame when it quits altogether.
I now only need to get moving at 9kmh and that's enough. I'm then sailing.

I know the feeling. I hated windsurfing in marginal conditions. Unless it was 20knts I wouldn't bother

"Saline by" really proved that the big sails could be used on such a small chassis (with the help of much ballast from a heavy pilot= 108kgs)
It sort of worked, but the back end kept breaking loose at speed and it wouldn't steer without sliding up forward with the seatbelt under your ribs. The tyre wear on the back was horrendous too.

I've include a crude Gizmo type diagram. Sounds like the BP was too far back and the CE behind the rear wheels. Did you ever sail 'Saline by' on the beach?








I just kept standing the mast up till it cornered well and the back didn't slide at all.

You were shifting the CE further forward?

It was a great couple of days to test things out and I tried to get as many people sailing it, for their ideas as well.

Most comments were that 6.9 m2 isn't at all different to the smaller rigs, even in high winds it's very manageable.



Is this because it is a cammbered race sail. How easy is it to rig? I was playing around with my 5.5m Neil Pryde and was reminded how fun it is to rig cams





The LL mini is such a brilliant design anyway. To paraphrase Landyacht:

on salt the faster yacht will be the one with a well cut sail matched to a good mast sailed by a competent pilot.


Thank you Chook, I still love your Power Sailing Style.


Ben

Yes you are dead right Ben the sail is just too big for the design and it's CE is way outside the envelope. Chook just pushes the boundaries

With a 5.6 m2 sail "Saline by" sails well, on salt, sand or gravel. With a 4.5 m2 it sails perfectly.
With it's pulse jet, it's gold!!!!

Our beaches can be soft in places, but you still need some weight on the front otherwise your into the surf when a gust hits you. I just slide forward to turn. Walking back up the beach after a run I always check the wheel tracks to see how the front and rear wheels are loaded when powered up. The rooster tail marks indicate what's needed, front or rear.
It's the same in a kite buggy the tyre tracks tell the story for "Centre of Effort".

Greg is the guru on the Cape Le Grande beach maybe he can comment.

Rigging only takes a few seconds longer to seat the camms and batten tension is already set with most of the later sails.
Just the same as when windsurfing I'm told. Pull the sail onto the mast, a small amount of down haul and then seat the camms, then as much downhaul as you can give it. These cammed sails, do need Lyndon's "Crockett downhaul" to work properly.

That's a "Reduced Diameter Mast" on your 5.5m2 Ben? Looks great. I wouldn't be touching that until you sail it. It should be perfect as it is.


Your cammed sail is what the adjustable mast step should work for, to get the CE in the right area, as the mast is swept back under a lot of tension anyway.

They go like stink and power away with low down grunt.
You'll love it!!!!!............ Is that Paul, I can hear grumblin' in the background.

Sorry to hijack your thread 772.

Two years ago - at the 2012 Worlds - the Ludic was a "5.60 mini", now is a very enjoyable "small yacht". It is pretty far from the 5.60 limit (ludic 5.04, blokart 4.98) but there're no factory improvements available, maybe a longer tiller could fit the bill. The Silence showed itself not able to cope with the chopped promos and class 5 so here we are. "Minis" are now only for racing, every maker is working at something that is slightly different from what you can use every day bringing it out of the trunk and sailing in a confortable way (it's the same also for the 2012 world champion beachrunner ruotenelvento.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/landsailing-around-the-world-sven-kraja-and-frog-sails/)

Ciao - Enrico

Must be bored again, ripped mini aus230 to pieces today. Going to make some changes to see if I can get a little more out of it.

No Vic, this was your benchmark yacht If its not broken don't fix it.

Why not make another one. I'm sure you could whip one up in a week or two.

BTW got an email from Jean-Philippe (Seagull Designer) the gymnastic weights strapped to the mast were due to the gale force winds in Belgium.

Ben.

Select to expand quote

aus230 said..
Must be bored again, ripped mini aus230 to pieces today. Going to make some changes to see if I can get a little more out of it.

Whew!!!! and here's me thinking that you had freighted it home with Qantas.

Onya Vic, can't wait to see what develops here.

Select to expand quote

BenBoulder said..

BTW got an email from Jean-Philippe (Seagull Designer) the gymnastic weights strapped to the mast were due to the gale force winds in Belgium.

Ben.

Use whatever is close at hand for ballast....... Love it!!!!!
It is a fantastic looking yacht, Jean-Philippe. Bet it sails as well as it looks too.

probably not a lot of changes, move the mast post forward to put a little more weight over the front and turn it into centre pull(down haul) the steering has already been converted to rod steering was never able to come to grips with the rotating steering

Ben, I could have built a new yacht but the changes that I wanted to make to the mini was minor. The mini was the first y framed yacht that I know of(way back before the 5.6 rule) so I figured that I would try to get it up to speed again.

Built 2007










Started putting it all back together today only the top of the hull to refit.

The mast post is now almost the same as my class5. Within in 50mm from centre of back axle to the centre of the mast post. I can now fit a centre pull for the boom.

Airtrack Nano (flex axle) and Blomini Video

Correction to mini build it was first built July 2009

Everything back together on the upgrade only have to sand and paint now.

Looking good Vic.

Finished up grade (finish a little rough like to see how it go's) Bit of work to do on boom.

Took the mini for a sail at lake walungup, The changes had a huge effect on the mini. It is now very very fast and handled like a small class5, could not believe the difference the changes made.

Glad we had some influence over the mods and even nicer that it was a positive result Vic.

How much did you come forward with the mast step? Looks like 100mm or so.

Got a new helmet for Christmas mate?

300mm forward, that is one of the sandgroper guys having a sail. The centre pull was great.
I need to get a better sail this one was an old easy that I cut down and stitched the whole thing with a hand awl, has to be an easer way

great news about your mini. just need to finish 'frog's legs' mini. I'm off to Perth this week for the blokart thing.

Here is one way of getting the mast well forward.



There are some awesome photos in the "Carels" gallery.
www.pbase.com:443/waltercarels

Thought about doing something like but it was going to be to complicated. The idea looks good once we see a pic.