If I can get out in 17 knots on a 138x42 cm board then how many knots will I get out in, on a 148x48cm board?

Beginner, 90kg, 12m kite.

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KiwiDave said..
If I can get out in 17 knots on a 138x42 cm board then how many knots will I get out in, on a 148x48cm board?

Beginner, 90kg, 12m kite.

You'll be somewhere around 13 to 15 knots I expect. Is the 148x48 really flat? Makes an enormous difference if there is no rocker.

Hi KiwiDave,

I reckon you'd be able to go in possibly 12 knots but a lot will depend on the kite and board. A good grunty kite that pulls well upwind will make life easier. SOme manufacturers make a big kite grunty by making it sit back in the wind window a bit more than most. It feels really powerful but you need to edge super hard against it to stop yourself going downwind.

A kite that has excellent upwind ability will provide you the pull in a more upwind angle requiring you to edge less. Hard edging causes huge drag or resistance which will will pull you off the plane.

Light wind kiting is much more technical than powered up kiting and comes with it's own set of skills and techniques.

Here is a few tips:

Edge hard and point high upwind in the gusts when you have more power.

Flatten the board and edge less in the lulls so there is less resistance.

A trick I learned some time ago was to "twist" the board by trying to flatten the front of the board with your front foot and keep a normal edge with the back foot. This works really well with boards like the North Jaime and X-Ride which has the 3D shaping in the core to promote twist in the middle whilst leaving the front and back of the board more rigid. It lessens the entry angle of the water to the board at the front and progressively increases edging. It takes som practice, but I found it worked for me.

The 148 x 48 is a LOT bigger than the board you currently ride, so I'd expect a significant increase in bottom end with good riding skills. If you're new to light wind kiting, practice heaps and experiment to see what works for you. The skills aren't learnt by normal kiting methods and will take time to learn, but they are worth learning.

A bigger board is a much better value and better performance option than a bigger kite. A bigger kite should be added once you have the board skills so you aren't just throwing more power at a problem. The combination of big board and big kite is crazy for light wind.

DM

Depending on how big your tides are, you can use the runout tide in a creek mouth to give you more apparent windo. For instance. I have a creek mouth that I play in, on a 4m tide it will rush out at 4-5 knots, turning 12knots of wind into 16-17 knots of apparent wind. Tide can make a huge difference to your light wind sesh.
Good luck

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bigtone667 said...

KiwiDave said..
If I can get out in 17 knots on a 138x42 cm board then how many knots will I get out in, on a 148x48cm board?

Beginner, 90kg, 12m kite.

You'll be somewhere around 13 to 15 knots I expect. Is the 148x48 really flat? Makes an enormous difference if there is no rocker.

A flat lw board is great for flat water, but if your riding in shore conditions it helps to have rocker, otherwise your riding with too much backfoot pressure to get over the whitewash and sets, this is a killer of power and momentum, as dm mentioned lw efficient riding is much more difficult to master, also it's natural as a new rider to try and keep out on the water in all winds, and with that comes bigger kites bigger boards , and vise versa, you'll get more choosy as you progress, We all did it, now I'm sitting it out unless the wind has some swell and decent strength

What board?

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Kamikuza said..
What board?

I didn't have a specific board in mind but wanted to avoid asking simply "how bigger board should I buy" and potentially getting confusing answers.

I see a used Cabrinha Spectrum 148x44 and thought that might be the go?

Wider is better than longer for low end. Flatter is better than both. Flat water tops everything, by a lot. What everyone else said!

Axis Ultra is a great light wind board - I swear, the channels are the shiznit... keeps the ride smooth and fast. I have a Flydoor XL 170x50 and my small TT is 140x43 - Axis Limited. If I can't ride that upwind the Flydoor will do it, but there's very little fun to be had and I'd rather practice riding the directional.

No wish to try a directional? A Nugget or something will top anything TT and directional is more fun to mow the lawn with...

yeh I agree with Action Sports & Big Tone and disagree with Kamikuza (sorry m8)

Do you go in waves or flat or both?

13 -15kts is totally doable on the right LW TT I would say 12kts

Bigger board is way better economics than a bigger kite, so you're on the right track.
Spectrum's are good boards but the ultimate LW TT is the Shinn 150x50 you will triple your riding with this and your progression.
LW boards can be long and thin, short and fat, long and fat, assymetrical, reverse outlined, add to all these combo's low rockered, or high rockered,
small tipped or wide tipped and you've got more options than sonny bill.

Kami said wide an' short but the crew around here are finding it's all about rail length in the water. If you think of a kite in terms of upward and downwind pressure, then imagine trying to transfer that to upwind shipping. A long rail distributes the pressure accross a larger water surface giving you more plane and less pressure in your ankles. A shorter rail has more pressure per water area as there is the same amount of kite pressure but less rail. This causes "ploughing" where you are the plough and your board is the blade, resulting in **e upwind & lots of boredom. We've tried all combo's of kite's from 9,11,12,13,14,15,16,17&19 (one of my m8's is a compulsive new season kite buyer ;) with massive door's small TT's, mid TT's proper LW TT's performance, and dedicated SB's strapped unstrapped, Tomo design's, Custom's Big brand popout SB's and rail length beats surface area when you're a bit powered up, say at 11kts on a 17. Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn. there are ton's of boards we haven't rode, but we've rode a ton of the other's and the nugget was one and the shinn just buries it for LW. Nug's is fun but if you're looking at SB's the SS celrita's does the same wind as the Nug and is heaps more versatile as it can do slop and pumping 5'

happy searching

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pattiecannon said..
yeh I agree with Action Sports & Big Tone and disagree with Kamikuza (sorry m8)

Do you go in waves or flat or both?

13 -15kts is totally doable on the right LW TT I would say 12kts

Bigger board is way better economics than a bigger kite, so you're on the right track.
Spectrum's are good boards but the ultimate LW TT is the Shinn 150x50 you will triple your riding with this and your progression.
LW boards can be long and thin, short and fat, long and fat, assymetrical, reverse outlined, add to all these combo's low rockered, or high rockered,
small tipped or wide tipped and you've got more options than sonny bill.

Kami said wide an' short but the crew around here are finding it's all about rail length in the water. If you think of a kite in terms of upward and downwind pressure, then imagine trying to transfer that to upwind shipping. A long rail distributes the pressure accross a larger water surface giving you more plane and less pressure in your ankles. A shorter rail has more pressure per water area as there is the same amount of kite pressure but less rail. This causes "ploughing" where you are the plough and your board is the blade, resulting in **e upwind & lots of boredom. We've tried all combo's of kite's from 9,11,12,13,14,15,16,17&19 (one of my m8's is a compulsive new season kite buyer ;) with massive door's small TT's, mid TT's proper LW TT's performance, and dedicated SB's strapped unstrapped, Tomo design's, Custom's Big brand popout SB's and rail length beats surface area when you're a bit powered up, say at 11kts on a 17. Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn. there are ton's of boards we haven't rode, but we've rode a ton of the other's and the nugget was one and the shinn just buries it for LW. Nug's is fun but if you're looking at SB's the SS celrita's does the same wind as the Nug and is heaps more versatile as it can do slop and pumping 5'

happy searching

I have the Boardriding Maui Paipo (what Mr Shinn borrowed for his Shinnster) and I agree it is a good light wind board and I find it just a little bit better than the Nugget and find the Nugget much better than SS Celeritas (or however you spell it).

But I needed something better because of my size ........ so I made a fatter, longer and another weirdo thing:






The Paipo derivative works really well, and the red thing is super super light wind (flat flat flat and very wide.... sort of a directional slim board)

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pattiecannon said...
Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn.

I think you just agreed with what I was saying. 50cm is the widest TT I've heard of, the Shinn being the shortest (but still 50cm wide) by a very long way... Planing area is important, but you're right it's not the be all and end all.

Straighter rails make is easier to go upwind IMO as you can edge against the rail, rather than have to sit on the rear foot.

The flydoors have a center fin so you can rose the board even flatter.

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Kamikuza said..

pattiecannon said...
Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn.

I think you just agreed with what I was saying. 50cm is the widest TT I've heard of, the Shinn being the shortest (but still 50cm wide) by a very long way... Planing area is important, but you're right it's not the be all and end all.

Straighter rails make is easier to go upwind IMO as you can edge against the rail, rather than have to sit on the rear foot.

The flydoors have a center fin so you can rose the board even flatter.

Agreed, the Flydoor will go earlier and have better upwind ability than the Shinn.

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BrisKites said...

Kamikuza said..

pattiecannon said...
Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn.

I think you just agreed with what I was saying. 50cm is the widest TT I've heard of, the Shinn being the shortest (but still 50cm wide) by a very long way... Planing area is important, but you're right it's not the be all and end all.

Straighter rails make is easier to go upwind IMO as you can edge against the rail, rather than have to sit on the rear foot.

The flydoors have a center fin so you can rose the board even flatter.

Agreed, the Flydoor will go earlier and have better upwind ability than the Shinn.

Yes but depends what you want and your conditions, flydoor in flat water mowing the grass riding ,great, if that's your thing, add some onshore slop and whitewash and chop, crap, if you want to carve around do a few jumps, catch a few waves,etc etc the flydoor isn't amongst others the board, it's a true lw board which does just that, depends what you want from a lw session,

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cauncy said..

BrisKites said...

Kamikuza said..

pattiecannon said...
Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn.

I think you just agreed with what I was saying. 50cm is the widest TT I've heard of, the Shinn being the shortest (but still 50cm wide) by a very long way... Planing area is important, but you're right it's not the be all and end all.

Straighter rails make is easier to go upwind IMO as you can edge against the rail, rather than have to sit on the rear foot.

The flydoors have a center fin so you can rose the board even flatter.

Agreed, the Flydoor will go earlier and have better upwind ability than the Shinn.

Yes but depends what you want and your conditions, flydoor in flat water mowing the grass riding ,great, if that's your thing, add some onshore slop and whitewash and chop, crap, if you want to carve around do a few jumps, catch a few waves,etc etc the flydoor isn't amongst others the board, it's a true lw board which does just that, depends what you want from a lw session,

Yes, agreed. It does depend on the conditions. So in that case in those conditions you are describing I can think of a half dozen boards that will be more fun than the 50cm wide Shinn. Not that I care because I will be on my Nugget or Starboard Ultra

Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

Flydoor XL is fine if you're a bigger rider... If I were kiwidave and I was getting a Flydoor, it'd be the L, or perhaps the Flyradical XL which has a similar outline and rocker but isn't such a monster. Chop and slop is all we got here and you can carve them well enough but I'd rather ride a bigger kite and a smaller baord ;)

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cauncy said..
Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

For all round everything: North Nugget (strapped), Boardriding Maui (unstrapped), Fish style surf board (21+ inches, 35+ litres volume)

For flat water: Slingshot Glide, Vector 60

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bigtone667 said...

cauncy said..
Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

For all round everything: North Nugget (strapped), Boardriding Maui (unstrapped), Fish style surf board (21+ inches, 35+ litres volume)

For flat water: Slingshot Glide, Vector 60

All good but the post was for a beginner , no good giving him most of them when he hasn't learnt the basics,

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cauncy said..

bigtone667 said...

cauncy said..
Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

For all round everything: North Nugget (strapped), Boardriding Maui (unstrapped), Fish style surf board (21+ inches, 35+ litres volume)

For flat water: Slingshot Glide, Vector 60

All good but the post was for a beginner , no good giving him most of them when he hasn't learnt the basics,

Slingshot Glide then. Perfect beginners board and cheap.

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bigtone667 said...

cauncy said..

bigtone667 said...

cauncy said..
Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

For all round everything: North Nugget (strapped), Boardriding Maui (unstrapped), Fish style surf board (21+ inches, 35+ litres volume)

For flat water: Slingshot Glide, Vector 60

All good but the post was for a beginner , no good giving him most of them when he hasn't learnt the basics,

Slingshot Glide then. Perfect beginners board and cheap.

Thought you might suggest a skimboard minus Finns and deckpad

Glide is really narrow for its length iirc. Be nice going edge to edge... and the rail is straight. Always wanted to try one.

A directional is a good option. They're easy to learn (relative to free race boards) and you can still have fun on them - more than a big door, IMO.

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cauncy said..

bigtone667 said...

cauncy said..

bigtone667 said...

cauncy said..
Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

For all round everything: North Nugget (strapped), Boardriding Maui (unstrapped), Fish style surf board (21+ inches, 35+ litres volume)

For flat water: Slingshot Glide, Vector 60

All good but the post was for a beginner , no good giving him most of them when he hasn't learnt the basics,

Slingshot Glide then. Perfect beginners board and cheap.

Thought you might suggest a skimboard minus Finns and deckpad

Skimboard (deckpad is a must) with or without fins is fine, but a skim board is a little harder to learn than say a big twin tip. You need some serious balance for the skim board (IMHO) and need to have your kite skills down first. A tt is a little bit more forgiving, as is a directional.

But my personal order of "learning" preference is a directional, then tt, then skim. I always found the directional easiest, but it is the most expensive (kitesurf directional!!!).

spot on bigtone - but you've got to learn to spot the wink face on the end of cauncy's posts half the time!

a tongue in cheek face might be more apt for that one above?!

I noticed he was yanking my chain after the post....

I was looking for the dick on head after some of those suggestions for a beginner

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cauncy said..
I was looking for the dick on head after some of those suggestions for a beginner

That's what the strapon is for ....

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bigtone667 said..

pattiecannon said..
yeh I agree with Action Sports & Big Tone and disagree with Kamikuza (sorry m8)

Do you go in waves or flat or both?

13 -15kts is totally doable on the right LW TT I would say 12kts

Bigger board is way better economics than a bigger kite, so you're on the right track.
Spectrum's are good boards but the ultimate LW TT is the Shinn 150x50 you will triple your riding with this and your progression.
LW boards can be long and thin, short and fat, long and fat, assymetrical, reverse outlined, add to all these combo's low rockered, or high rockered,
small tipped or wide tipped and you've got more options than sonny bill.

Kami said wide an' short but the crew around here are finding it's all about rail length in the water. If you think of a kite in terms of upward and downwind pressure, then imagine trying to transfer that to upwind shipping. A long rail distributes the pressure accross a larger water surface giving you more plane and less pressure in your ankles. A shorter rail has more pressure per water area as there is the same amount of kite pressure but less rail. This causes "ploughing" where you are the plough and your board is the blade, resulting in **e upwind & lots of boredom. We've tried all combo's of kite's from 9,11,12,13,14,15,16,17&19 (one of my m8's is a compulsive new season kite buyer ;) with massive door's small TT's, mid TT's proper LW TT's performance, and dedicated SB's strapped unstrapped, Tomo design's, Custom's Big brand popout SB's and rail length beats surface area when you're a bit powered up, say at 11kts on a 17. Easily the best TT board for Performance & LW ability was the 150x50 shinn. there are ton's of boards we haven't rode, but we've rode a ton of the other's and the nugget was one and the shinn just buries it for LW. Nug's is fun but if you're looking at SB's the SS celrita's does the same wind as the Nug and is heaps more versatile as it can do slop and pumping 5'

happy searching

I have the Boardriding Maui Paipo (what Mr Shinn borrowed for his Shinnster) and I agree it is a good light wind board and I find it just a little bit better than the Nugget and find the Nugget much better than SS Celeritas (or however you spell it).

But I needed something better because of my size ........ so I made a fatter, longer and another weirdo thing:






The Paipo derivative works really well, and the red thing is super super light wind (flat flat flat and very wide.... sort of a directional slim board)

gr8 thread guys thanks.
Awesome build bigTone, could you share a bit a bout the build here m8? Rockered? Width? type of ply? Any Glass?
Those Maui boards do look like a prototype for mr. shinn for sure. Must be heaps of fun.

but, bit tuff for beginners, the strapless stuff.

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cauncy said..
Well don't be shy, it's a topic on lw boards, recommend a few that you may not sell, the are plenty of great kites and boards out there,

Yep, I don't sell Starboard Surfboards. Just ride one

"could you share a bit a bout the build here m8? Rockered? Width? type of ply? Any Glass? "


I did this the stupid way cause I wasn't sure I could do it, but .....

I bought the cheapest 5 sheets of 1200*500*5mm ply I could get at bunnings (about $12 per sheet).
I put three in my bathtub for 4 days with a big weight on them to create the rocker.

I pulled the wet sheets out and laid them on a concrete floor with a brick lifting one end and kept the weight applied and allowed them to dry.
I was aiming to get the rocker in the first quarter of the board with the rest very flat (skim like). Left them for about two weeks.

I then took two bent sheets and two flat sheets and laid them down into a 2400*1000 rectangle and glued the edges with liquid nails.

I took the third bent sheet and glued it across the main join of the four sheets with the bend towards the front. The logic was to strengthen the join and make it a 10mm area with almost no flex where I would be standing.

Left the bricks in place to keep the rocker and added more bricks onto the fifth sheet to ensure the glue bonded well. Left it for two weeks to set and dry.

I then applied 6oz fiberglass on the top and bottom with a "sticky resin" (sure there is a correct term for it).

I then layed the Maui Paipo onto my big fibre glassed rectangle and traced the outline + 25mm for the rails and front. I extended the rear by about 100mm.
I then cut the shape with a jig saw using a metal blade to reduce the tearing and sanded the edges/mistakes.

I then put the final "non sticky" coat onto the board being careful to seal the edges of the ply wood.

I added a deck grip ..........

Took it out in the sloppy mush last weekend and I think it goes upwind as well as my Nugget. Not as fast as the Nugget, but it will get me going in much lighter winds.
Only downside of the build is the weight ...... this thing is a weapon of mass destruction.

In hindsight, what I should done in this entire project is just bought a big paulownia blank from www.shinai.co ..... Would have been able to do exactly the same thing and I would have avoided the weight and gluing. Next time.

Thanks guys. I think I might have under stated the "Beginner".

I might be the slowest learning beginner ever. I'm not going upwind yet.

Our local spot (as dictated by parks Victoria) is between two rock berms. In the southerly I ride directly downwind from one berm to the other and then do the walk of shame. If I could get a bit of pace on earlier then I expect I could turn upwind before hitting the downwind rocks. Probably just a stance defect.

Equally if I could get out in a couple of knots less wind then I could go to another spot that has a bit more space. Both locations have a bit of chop close to the shore.

I am thinking of a larger board to get me going despite my lack of skills but hoping that such a board would remain useful when I get better (just in lighter conditions).

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KiwiDave said..
Thanks guys. I think I might have under stated the "Beginner".

I might be the slowest learning beginner ever. I'm not going upwind yet.

Our local spot (as dictated by parks Victoria) is between two rock berms. In the southerly I ride directly downwind from one berm to the other and then do the walk of shame. If I could get a bit of pace on earlier then I expect I could turn upwind before hitting the downwind rocks. Probably just a stance defect.

Equally if I could get out in a couple of knots less wind then I could go to another spot that has a bit more space. Both locations have a bit of chop close to the shore.

I am thinking of a larger board to get me going despite my lack of skills but hoping that such a board would remain useful when I get better (just in lighter conditions).

A started with a smaller board and struggled to even get up. I bought the Slingshot Glide (new but a model from a previous season) and was up and going downwind first go!!!!

A few weeks later I was up and going upwind.