I am about 75-80kg and am using a 2010 10m airush lithium with a 2007 cabrinha bar/lines.

Around 20-25 knots I build up enough speed to be out of control within about 25 metres (edging moderately & fully depowered). I have to hold the bar all the way out. I can plane/edge really hard and prevent me and the kite from ever gaining enough momentum but it is difficult because sooner or later the momentum will stack up on top of each other and I will be going way to fast.

My question is, how much slower will I be going on a 9m? or an 8m? or a 7m?

My problem is that it is hard to get started. I have to send the kite to 12 to lift me up a bit and then dive it up and then send it again. So I have to pack my speed on top of each other like /send up=2kmh/dive down=4km/ send up 8kmh/ dive down 16kmh/ then stable kite in powerzone and then crash. I can do this in 20-25 knots easy but soon enough I will be in wobble town and face plant into the water. So if I go for a smaller kite, will it make that speed build up at the start harder?

I thought most guys my weight rider a 9m but for me 1 meter bigger and I'm struggling. I also prefer to go slower than faster, but I want my speed to be stable ffs.

Would be a combo of your body position and edge control and where the kite is.

board size and type can have a huge impact on kite power, i feel i can reduce the power of my kite by 2 mtrs on the current board im riding

I have a couple of suggestions.
Trimming the kite is very important. If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out. Get a more experienced person to check your setup.

You may not be edging efficiently and gaining to much uncontrolled speed. Work on flying the kite lower and load up the edge with back foot heel pressure to keep you up wind.

I don't think kite size is the problem. I fly a 10m up to 20 knots and I'm 65 kg. My board is an Axis Twin Wave 148cm.

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eibwen said...
Would be a combo of your body position and edge control and where the kite is.

Yeah but as I said I can plane/edge really hard and prevent me and the kite from ever gaining enough momentum but it is difficult because sooner or later the momentum will stack up on top of each other and I will be going way to fast.

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cauncy said...
board size and type can have a huge impact on kite power, i feel i can reduce the power of my kite by 2 mtrs on the current board im riding

Could be, my board is a 128 so really small.

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KIT33R said...
I have a couple of suggestions.
Trimming the kite is very important. If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out. Get a more experienced person to check your setup.

You may not be edging efficiently and gaining to much uncontrolled speed. Work on flying the kite lower and load up the edge with back foot heel pressure to keep you up wind.

I don't think kite size is the problem. I fly a 10m up to 20 knots and I'm 65 kg. My board is an Axis Twin Wave 148cm.

That could be. All though I did the sheet in test with the bridles hooked to a fence and everything looked fine. I'll try put some piggy trails on the rear lines and hook them to the last of the 3 knots, although that is gonna make turning the kite so slow.

128 size board is actually helping you hold more power...

It can only be technique, bar tune or kite size
I reckon at 25knots at your weight a 10m is probably getting close to its limit ( at 25 I'm definitely onto my 8m and I'm 83kg )
So kite near its limit, bar maybe slightly out of tune and a non perfect technique compound to end up out of control.

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harry potter said..
128 size board is actually helping you hold more power...

It can only be technique, bar tune or kite size
I reckon at 25knots at your weight a 10m is probably getting close to its limit ( at 25 I'm definitely onto my 8m and I'm 83kg )
So kite near its limit, bar maybe slightly out of tune and a non perfect technique compound to end up out of control.

What would happen if you rode your 8m in 15-20 knots? Would you be able to get and riding with one down dive of the kite? could you maintain steady speed by edging and holding it in power zone or would you need to constantly dive the kite? How about a 7m?

I assume you are quite a new, newbie based on your profile and the questions you have asked.

What you describe is simply lack of skill and experience. The under powered/big dive/go fast/crash cycle is simply you not having the feel to be able to modulate the power of your kite to suit the conditions, and lack of skill at handling the various situations you would normally get into.

You're thinking in absolute terms of kite range when there's no such thing. An experienced kiter can ride almost any kite/board combination in any conditions and be under control. It might not be as much fun as it could be, but it is certainly under control.

There is a temptation as a newbie to think that things will get better if you change your gear. That is almost always wrong. What you need is a lot more practice. That is the only way to acquire skill and understanding.

Having said that, a 2010 kite is pretty old. A 2007 bar and lines (especially a 2:1 pulley system) is just nuts. The design is ridiculously outdated. Even worse, the lines will be well past their use by date.

PS A skilled rider could ride a 7m performance kite with a flat surfboard in 15 knots (going fast upwind and doing the odd pop or air gybe) and still be riding in 40+ knots. A surf kite will give less bottom end but the performance kite will feel nicer overpowered.

PPS A 10m kite in 20-25 knots with a TT is perfect for boosting big airs. A smaller kite better for whipping around and having fun.

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Gorgo said..
I assume you are quite a new, newbie based on your profile and the questions you have asked.

What you describe is simply lack of skill and experience. The under powered/big dive/go fast/crash cycle is simply you not having the feel to be able to modulate the power of your kite to suit the conditions, and lack of skill at handling the various situations you would normally get into.

You're thinking in absolute terms of kite range when there's no such thing. An experienced kiter can ride almost any kite/board combination in any conditions and be under control. It might not be as much fun as it could be, but it is certainly under control.

There is a temptation as a newbie to think that things will get better if you change your gear. That is almost always wrong. What you need is a lot more practice. That is the only way to acquire skill and understanding.

Having said that, a 2010 kite is pretty old. A 2007 bar and lines (especially a 2:1 pulley system) is just nuts. The design is ridiculously outdated. Even worse, the lines will be well past their use by date.

PS A skilled rider could ride a 7m performance kite with a flat surfboard in 15 knots (going fast upwind and doing the odd pop or air gybe) and still be riding in 40+ knots. A surf kite will give less bottom end but the performance kite will feel nicer overpowered.

PPS A 10m kite in 20-25 knots with a TT is perfect for boosting big airs. A smaller kite better for whipping around and having fun.

Ok, so you are telling me that if anyone wants to they can max out on their kites, no matter what, no matter who but because of experience they know how not too. Take bob for example who is 90kg and flies a 7m kite in 20 knot winds on a TT, he can max out and crash if he wants to but he has "experience" so he doesn't.

What it looks like from my end is:

1) experienced dudes on kites who sit their kite just under 45 degrees and maintain steady speed whilst edging moderately

and then

2) me, an apparent "newbie" who sits his kite just under 45 degrees and DOESN'T maintain steady speed whilst edging moderately

My point is, I am doing everything they are doing, even more than that is that I am edging HARDER than they are edging... so I know that something is up.

It is all too easy to just say "yeah, its cause you suck man, that's why".

I think it could be my rear line length is too short which causes me to have too much power when fully sheeted in. I will let you know.

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drewpweiner said..
its cause you suck man, that's why".

But you do.

Hey drewpweiner we have all felt your pain. Gorgo's comments are very fair and most likely the best advise you will receive. 20-25 knots and a 10m kite - no way should you be overpowered especially with such a small board. Practice digging in and holding that edge, you will get there. Also seriously look at updating your gear.

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SibboV1 said..

drewpweiner said..
its cause you suck man, that's why".

But you do.

Bump

Mate, I am 90kg (intermediate) and I use a 9m in 25kts. I think you could use a smaller kite.

Interestingly, I have also flown my Zephyr in 23 kts, sitting it above 45. In the window and stayed under control on a 145 x 43.5 board.

It is up to you how fast you go on any kite size. Practice understanding the power developed in various parts of the window and controlling your apparent wind as well.

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drewpweiner said..

eibwen said...
Would be a combo of your body position and edge control and where the kite is.

Yeah but as I said I can plane/edge really hard and prevent me and the kite from ever gaining enough momentum but it is difficult because sooner or later the momentum will stack up on top of each other and I will be going way to fast.

Then you need to build up some back leg stamina?. if your doing what your saying you should be able to kill off any run away speed with a bit more back foot and "feather it" so to speak maintaining what feels like a comfortable speed to you, if you let up on that control in strong winds for a bit it will stack up quickly as you say.

Just go down wind to the kite and wash off some speed and engage your edge again and lock it in.

Just ride downwind (that eases the tension on the lines and reduces power), raise the kite up, lose the speed, gently reset your edge and proceed. A jump will have a similar effect but can be a bit scary if you're way overpowered.

Lots of good info here for you. Don't feel like they are having a go at you. (Well except for the "you suck" comment). And this whole thread is subjective unless you can put up a video. Good thing to do now would be have another lesson or even have a experienced kiter look at how you ride.
You might think your doing every thing other kiters are doing. For example... To help with good edging technique a good tip is to point your hips to the sky. This helps stop the poo stance, which is hard to know that your doing it by your self. The moment you get this down, you will massively be able to increase your back foot edging power and at the same time use bugger all energy in your legs.
You will also expand your wind range by a lot

75-80kg on a 10m with 128 board in 20-25 knots?

That is the gravy for most 10m sizes. 25 knots will be very powered. 20 knots will be perfectly powered.

So the answer is not different equipment. The answer is better technique.


Keep the kite low crank upwind like a mofo and control your board speed. If you go too fast yourl loose control!.. Board speed is the key.

I am 110 kg - 20-25kn I am just right on 9m. 10m for your weight is overpowered.

To control the kite when overpowered keep your body straight from shoulder to knees, knees bent to take your body centre of gravity away from the board, and feel your body suspended by the harness to a large degree (not just by the board). Engage full length of board edge so you see the front fin is immersed in water (this will require more symetrical stand, weight distributed more equally on front and back foot - say 55% back, 45% front).

Putting lots of pressure on the back foot and having fhe front leg straight is not effective for overpowered riding (it is really good for nothing other than your first steps when learning and should be forgotten once you are able to get on the board and ride your first 100 m).

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KIT33R said..
If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out.

Turns out this was correct. I bought some larks heads today and put them on the rear lines and attached to the last knot on the pig tails.

For once I could actually sheet in the bar fully and maintain a steady speed. I set the trim to fully powered in about about 15-20 knots. I was so happy to be going at a steady pace for once although the downside is I lost some agility in turning the kite. I have to pull the bar sideways completely to dive the kite and back again, I think if there was any less steering control I would be struggling but this was completely acceptable.

There was a few times where it gusted up to above 25 knots and I got pulled a bit too fast but I just did an S swerve and started my edging again. Edging with my body fully flat like I am sleeping at 45 degrees makes me pick up more speed than if I have a slight bend in my legs, front foot straight and slight bend in back leg, looking in the direction I want to go in. When I pick up too much speed it forces me in to poo stance and I have to either swerve S or send the kite to 12 to kill of speed and start my slightly bent edge again.

Come to think of it I see almost everyone edging like this and only a few times do I see people briefly straighten out fully.

Definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in 30 knots on this thing though.

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Swavek said..
I am 110 kg - 20-25kn I am just right on 9m. 10m for your weight is overpowered.

I am 76kg and 10m 20-25 knots on my 145x45 mutant is perfect. !!

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Plummet said...

Swavek said..
I am 110 kg - 20-25kn I am just right on 9m. 10m for your weight is overpowered.

I am 76kg and 10m 20-25 knots on my 145x45 mutant is perfect. !!

Keep in mind ...... the kiting experience
The OP drewpweiner..... appears to be less than 12 months
plummet ....... closer to 10 years

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drewpweiner said..
I have to pull the bar sideways completely to dive the kite and back again, I think if there was any less steering control I would be struggling but this was completely acceptable.

It sounds like the kite is now luffing (shaking/flapping part of the kite sail). This indicates that the kite has reached its upper limit in depower and is now acting like a flag in the wind rather than a tensioned wing diverting the wind. When the kite is luffing, it won't turn anywhere near as much as it does when tensioned because the wind going over and under the kite is all disrupted and acting like one big ball. If you tension the kite (by pulling in or trimming) the air passes far more smoothly over all parts of the kite canopy making subtle differences to the shape able to impart big differences in the wind deflection and power, which allows the kite to turn far more easily.

TLDR; Pull the bar in before turning

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drewpweiner said...

KIT33R said..
If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out.

Turns out this was correct. I bought some larks heads today and put them on the rear lines and attached to the last knot on the pig tails.

For once I could actually sheet in the bar fully and maintain a steady speed. I set the trim to fully powered in about about 15-20 knots. I was so happy to be going at a steady pace for once although the downside is I lost some agility in turning the kite. I have to pull the bar sideways completely to dive the kite and back again, I think if there was any less steering control I would be struggling but this was completely acceptable.

There was a few times where it gusted up to above 25 knots and I got pulled a bit too fast but I just did an S swerve and started my edging again. Edging with my body fully flat like I am sleeping at 45 degrees makes me pick up more speed than if I have a slight bend in my legs, front foot straight and slight bend in back leg, looking in the direction I want to go in. When I pick up too much speed it forces me in to poo stance and I have to either swerve S or send the kite to 12 to kill of speed and start my slightly bent edge again.

Come to think of it I see almost everyone edging like this and only a few times do I see people briefly straighten out fully.

Definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in 30 knots on this thing though.

That's great your getting things sorted.
Keep working at the edging. Once you really have it sorted you won't be forced into poo stance. Just lean back more and keep the kite low. You won't have any problem with 30kn gusts. Just ride it out as above and really put the brakes on. I'm not saying ride it 30 with that setup. Just the gusts.

Just dig in and control your kites pull with an aggressive edge, board size is in your favour,
A kite at 2 or 10 o'clock is in its power zone,
Above that releases an edge, below enhances it






Notice bar to kite poison and board edge
Dropping a hand is critical
This was same day on a high powered 8 Mtrs kite at 30/35 knts and fully trimmed for power at the bar
My board does all the work

Here is a good vid on riding upwind, controling the kite power, and avoiding the poo stance

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kitcho207 said..

drewpweiner said...

KIT33R said..
If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out.

Turns out this was correct. I bought some larks heads today and put them on the rear lines and attached to the last knot on the pig tails.

For once I could actually sheet in the bar fully and maintain a steady speed. I set the trim to fully powered in about about 15-20 knots. I was so happy to be going at a steady pace for once although the downside is I lost some agility in turning the kite. I have to pull the bar sideways completely to dive the kite and back again, I think if there was any less steering control I would be struggling but this was completely acceptable.

There was a few times where it gusted up to above 25 knots and I got pulled a bit too fast but I just did an S swerve and started my edging again. Edging with my body fully flat like I am sleeping at 45 degrees makes me pick up more speed than if I have a slight bend in my legs, front foot straight and slight bend in back leg, looking in the direction I want to go in. When I pick up too much speed it forces me in to poo stance and I have to either swerve S or send the kite to 12 to kill of speed and start my slightly bent edge again.

Come to think of it I see almost everyone edging like this and only a few times do I see people briefly straighten out fully.

Definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in 30 knots on this thing though.

Hi Drewpweiner, sound like you are sorting it out - well done.

Out of interest - what did you do to determine your steering lines were too short ? I ask because the new behaviors you describe (sheeting in fully & ride in a steady , controlled fashion as well as slow / poor turning) are not desirable traits and are usually a sign your equipment IS NOT in tune. When my kites do this, it tells me my rear lines are too long, which could be either 1) shrunken front lines or too much trim pulled on or 2) too long rear lines. It doesn't matter what is the underlying cause because the effect is the same - the front lines relative to the rear lines are too short (or the rear lines relative to the front are too long - its the same thing). In the long term this may encourage poor technique as you learn to compensate and may make your progression more difficult down the track.

Most modern kites designed to be ridden with lines of equal length when the depower strap is wide open and the bar is fully sheeted in. This leaves the "sweet spot" in terms of bar position somewhere around the middle of the bar throw when comfortably powered. This gives you the ability to reduce power by sheeting our, and increase power by sheeting in. If you are forced to ride at either extreme - bar full out or full in , this is a telling sign something is wrong and potentially dangerous.

As the guys have said, a lot of this comes down to experience and technique, which will come with time. Good technique & experience means you should never be riding without control - that's how you get hurt..

If you can, Swapping gear with a mate can be interesting to see how different kites behave. Demoing kites from shops is another way to learn about kite shapes and characteristics. The kites i like to fly (high aspect foil kites) are certainly designed with specific riding styles in mind, and its worth understanding what you are looking for in a kite before you embark on the next purchase. Kites that offer strong upwind performance (ie for racing) will not generally work well for drifting down the line wave riding or wakestyle. But thats what makes this sport awesome - you take take it in any direction you fancy.

Select to expand quote

jamesperth said..

kitcho207 said..

drewpweiner said...

KIT33R said..
If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out.

Turns out this was correct. I bought some larks heads today and put them on the rear lines and attached to the last knot on the pig tails.

For once I could actually sheet in the bar fully and maintain a steady speed. I set the trim to fully powered in about about 15-20 knots. I was so happy to be going at a steady pace for once although the downside is I lost some agility in turning the kite. I have to pull the bar sideways completely to dive the kite and back again, I think if there was any less steering control I would be struggling but this was completely acceptable.

There was a few times where it gusted up to above 25 knots and I got pulled a bit too fast but I just did an S swerve and started my edging again. Edging with my body fully flat like I am sleeping at 45 degrees makes me pick up more speed than if I have a slight bend in my legs, front foot straight and slight bend in back leg, looking in the direction I want to go in. When I pick up too much speed it forces me in to poo stance and I have to either swerve S or send the kite to 12 to kill of speed and start my slightly bent edge again.

Come to think of it I see almost everyone edging like this and only a few times do I see people briefly straighten out fully.

Definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in 30 knots on this thing though.

Hi Drewpweiner, sound like you are sorting it out - well done.

Out of interest - what did you do to determine your steering lines were too short ? I ask because the new behaviors you describe (sheeting in fully & ride in a steady , controlled fashion as well as slow / poor turning) are not desirable traits and are usually a sign your equipment IS NOT in tune. When my kites do this, it tells me my rear lines are too long, which could be either 1) shrunken front lines or too much trim pulled on or 2) too long rear lines. It doesn't matter what is the underlying cause because the effect is the same - the front lines relative to the rear lines are too short (or the rear lines relative to the front are too long - its the same thing). In the long term this may encourage poor technique as you learn to compensate and may make your progression more difficult down the track.

Most modern kites designed to be ridden with lines of equal length when the depower strap is wide open and the bar is fully sheeted in. This leaves the "sweet spot" in terms of bar position somewhere around the middle of the bar throw when comfortably powered. This gives you the ability to reduce power by sheeting our, and increase power by sheeting in. If you are forced to ride at either extreme - bar full out or full in , this is a telling sign something is wrong and potentially dangerous.

As the guys have said, a lot of this comes down to experience and technique, which will come with time. Good technique & experience means you should never be riding without control - that's how you get hurt..

If you can, Swapping gear with a mate can be interesting to see how different kites behave. Demoing kites from shops is another way to learn about kite shapes and characteristics. The kites i like to fly (high aspect foil kites) are certainly designed with specific riding styles in mind, and its worth understanding what you are looking for in a kite before you embark on the next purchase. Kites that offer strong upwind performance (ie for racing) will not generally work well for drifting down the line wave riding or wakestyle. But thats what makes this sport awesome - you take take it in any direction you fancy.

Thanks, I have managed to understand what the faults were...

The the front lines were too short but my 07 cabrinha bar/lines did not have enough depower to compensate for when the rear lines were tight.

I spent some cash and swapped my 07 cabrinha bar/lines for 2014 north bar/lines. I now am getting full depower control and have rigged the lines up to equal length it feels much easier to control.

The other thing now it is in "the sweet spot" is that I can boost HUGE airs in relatively low wind on my 10m kite, I was really quite scared!

The other issue here was that I am 75kg and I was on a 10m in 25-30 knot winds which I thought were actually 20-25 knots so there was a reason I felt overpowered. I was still managing to hold my edge up wind though to about 20-30 degrees.

Soft hands Soft Hands Soft Hands. Coming from a windsurfing I wanted to pull on the bar. Now I think soft hands. Let the kite do the work. Try and let the kite flutter with bar out. I bet you are strangling the bar

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drewpweiner said..

jamesperth said..

kitcho207 said..

drewpweiner said...

KIT33R said..
If the back lines are too short which may be a problem with a mismatched kite and bar then you will have no depower when you push the bar out.

Turns out this was correct. I bought some larks heads today and put them on the rear lines and attached to the last knot on the pig tails.

For once I could actually sheet in the bar fully and maintain a steady speed. I set the trim to fully powered in about about 15-20 knots. I was so happy to be going at a steady pace for once although the downside is I lost some agility in turning the kite. I have to pull the bar sideways completely to dive the kite and back again, I think if there was any less steering control I would be struggling but this was completely acceptable.

There was a few times where it gusted up to above 25 knots and I got pulled a bit too fast but I just did an S swerve and started my edging again. Edging with my body fully flat like I am sleeping at 45 degrees makes me pick up more speed than if I have a slight bend in my legs, front foot straight and slight bend in back leg, looking in the direction I want to go in. When I pick up too much speed it forces me in to poo stance and I have to either swerve S or send the kite to 12 to kill of speed and start my slightly bent edge again.

Come to think of it I see almost everyone edging like this and only a few times do I see people briefly straighten out fully.

Definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in 30 knots on this thing though.

Hi Drewpweiner, sound like you are sorting it out - well done.

Out of interest - what did you do to determine your steering lines were too short ? I ask because the new behaviors you describe (sheeting in fully & ride in a steady , controlled fashion as well as slow / poor turning) are not desirable traits and are usually a sign your equipment IS NOT in tune. When my kites do this, it tells me my rear lines are too long, which could be either 1) shrunken front lines or too much trim pulled on or 2) too long rear lines. It doesn't matter what is the underlying cause because the effect is the same - the front lines relative to the rear lines are too short (or the rear lines relative to the front are too long - its the same thing). In the long term this may encourage poor technique as you learn to compensate and may make your progression more difficult down the track.

Most modern kites designed to be ridden with lines of equal length when the depower strap is wide open and the bar is fully sheeted in. This leaves the "sweet spot" in terms of bar position somewhere around the middle of the bar throw when comfortably powered. This gives you the ability to reduce power by sheeting our, and increase power by sheeting in. If you are forced to ride at either extreme - bar full out or full in , this is a telling sign something is wrong and potentially dangerous.

As the guys have said, a lot of this comes down to experience and technique, which will come with time. Good technique & experience means you should never be riding without control - that's how you get hurt..

If you can, Swapping gear with a mate can be interesting to see how different kites behave. Demoing kites from shops is another way to learn about kite shapes and characteristics. The kites i like to fly (high aspect foil kites) are certainly designed with specific riding styles in mind, and its worth understanding what you are looking for in a kite before you embark on the next purchase. Kites that offer strong upwind performance (ie for racing) will not generally work well for drifting down the line wave riding or wakestyle. But thats what makes this sport awesome - you take take it in any direction you fancy.

Thanks, I have managed to understand what the faults were...

The the front lines were too short but my 07 cabrinha bar/lines did not have enough depower to compensate for when the rear lines were tight.

I spent some cash and swapped my 07 cabrinha bar/lines for 2014 north bar/lines. I now am getting full depower control and have rigged the lines up to equal length it feels much easier to control.

The other thing now it is in "the sweet spot" is that I can boost HUGE airs in relatively low wind on my 10m kite, I was really quite scared!

The other issue here was that I am 75kg and I was on a 10m in 25-30 knot winds which I thought were actually 20-25 knots so there was a reason I felt overpowered. I was still managing to hold my edge up wind though to about 20-30 degrees.

Good stuff mate. Win-win