Hi all,

I know there has been a lot of forum posts about swivels over the years but they all seem to lead to that fact that no swivels actually works. People talk up the mutany one but that's not single line flagging.
It is now 2015 and I'm wondering where kite companies are directing there R&D. kite design has slowed and it seems the biggest thing this year has been core coming out with a "revolutionary" pump.....but who cares about a pump (and they didn't even design it)
So my question is with all the new bars out this year has anyone actually designed an above the bar, single line flagging swivel that works? Or am I dreaming and this is never going to happen?

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noodelsrominov said..
Hi all,

I know there has been a lot of forum posts about swivels over the years but they all seem to lead to that fact that no swivels actually works. People talk up the mutany one but that's not single line flagging.
It is now 2015 and I'm wondering where kite companies are directing there R&D. kite design has slowed and it seems the biggest thing this year has been core coming out with a "revolutionary" pump.....but who cares about a pump (and they didn't even design it)
So my question is with all the new bars out this year has anyone actually designed an above the bar, single line flagging swivel that works? Or am I dreaming and this is never going to happen?

way behind the eight-ball mate. LF and Slingy have very similar swivels that work a dream. both above the bar. been out for i think 4 years

The Mutiny swivel works better and outlasts all other brands hands down...
There is a simple mod I've come up with to make it a real single line flagout and have done it to 3 of my bars - one is 3+ years old... and still like new !
I sent it to Mutiny kites and they were looking into the idea.
I'll post a pic when I'm back next week.

Did you know the reason why kite companies make below the bar swivels for hand use... Because the their top swivels are crap and stop working very quickly...
3 years of not having to untwist the depower line - fork yeah

The Wairman swivel is really good too.

Yes I noticed, in the Wainman pics that the swivel looks a little wider between the front line holes - than the previous year...

Can anyone post a pic side by side.. ? Or have one in stock ?

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SaveTheWhales said..
Yes I noticed, in the Wainman pics that the swivel looks a little wider between the front line holes - than the previous year...

Can anyone post a pic side by side.. ? Or have one in stock ?

There's a video on KF of a guy spinning the swivel... Difference is clear.

Found it

Yeah it's not how freely it spins in a video, it's the front line width and bearing that gives the swivel its untwist ability...
A torque effect.

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SaveTheWhales said...
The Mutiny swivel works better and outlasts all other brands hands down...
There is a simple mod I've come up with to make it a real single line flagout and have done it to 3 of my bars - one is 3+ years old... and still like new !
I sent it to Mutiny kites and they were looking into the idea.
I'll post a pic when I'm back next week.

Please do.

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SaveTheWhales said..
Yeah it's not how freely it spins in a video, it's the front line width and bearing that gives the swivel its untwist ability...
A torque effect.

Yes, but friction will reduce the effective torque effect.

Smooth as owls poop

the Liquid Force swivel works a treat. From 2013 on, two front lines are quite far apart, I never have a twist in front lines.
recently retrofitted an old bar - it was about $36 from the Local LF dealer.

Hmm all new swivels spin smooth,

3+ years for one bar

And about 2 for the others.. Used and abused !

That's my proof, it's the torque width effect..

Nash have found the answer no swivel = 1 less thing to worry about lol red thumb away

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skywalker3d said..
Nash have found the answer no swivel = 1 less thing to worry about lol red thumb away

It all goes in cycles! Single line safety was common, but people wanted Re-ride safety so we got double front safeties and the bundles with pulleys. Now, pulleys are the devil so back come the single fronts, swivels etc etc...

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Kamikuza said..

skywalker3d said..
Nash have found the answer no swivel = 1 less thing to worry about lol red thumb away

It all goes in cycles! Single line safety was common, but people wanted Re-ride safety so we got double front safeties and the bundles with pulleys. Now, pulleys are the devil so back come the single fronts, swivels etc etc...

Yeah i think you might be on to something there...

Well I'm sick of the naish swivels....so I'm going to buy a LF swivel. Anyone know who has them in vic?

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noodelsrominov said..
Well I'm sick of the naish swivels....so I'm going to buy a LF swivel. Anyone know who has them in vic?

Try Altona kite shop he is the LF dealer. Wainman and naish are around $80 bucks.

I find the Wainman swivel stops working more so when the flag out line is really twisted up and tight. I was going to put a small swivel on the flag out line to see if this helps. When i stop and unswivel the flag out ling (safety line) i find the main swivel works a lot better. This is were under bar swivels work a lot better i think.

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Kamikuza said..

SaveTheWhales said..
Yeah it's not how freely it spins in a video, it's the front line width and bearing that gives the swivel its untwist ability...
A torque effect.

Yes, but friction will reduce the effective torque effect.

You want your bearings to spin like that?
Easy just degrease it and put in a light weight oil.
Won't be great though when you crash your kite and the oil gets replaced with salt water.
What you want is a larger bearing so the flag line goes through causing minimal friction. Then you also need wider mounting points to create that extra torque.

Also just a simple rinse with fresh water to remove any sand once your done for the day.

Have to say the Mutiny swivel always worked really well, and if it started to get a bit stuck just dunk it in a bucket of water, and start spinning the swivel, then turn it upside down and keep spinning... the amount of stuff that used to come out of ours was pretty insane!

Drew

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flyingcab said..

Kamikuza said..

SaveTheWhales said..
Yeah it's not how freely it spins in a video, it's the front line width and bearing that gives the swivel its untwist ability...
A torque effect.

Yes, but friction will reduce the effective torque effect.

You want your bearings to spin like that?
Easy just degrease it and put in a light weight oil.
Won't be great though when you crash your kite and the oil gets replaced with salt water.
What you want is a larger bearing so the flag line goes through causing minimal friction. Then you also need wider mounting points to create that extra torque.

Also just a simple rinse with fresh water to remove any sand once your done for the day.

Oil attracts sand, sand and oil make a nice grinding paste. Dry lube like Sail Kote (?) will be good. I think the better ones use ceramic bearings...

Bigger and wider needs stronger materials to withstand the torque... added weight? Easier to carch slacked lines on?

... what is wrong with under bar swivels?

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Kamikuza said..

flyingcab said..

Kamikuza said..

SaveTheWhales said..
Yeah it's not how freely it spins in a video, it's the front line width and bearing that gives the swivel its untwist ability...
A torque effect.

Yes, but friction will reduce the effective torque effect.

You want your bearings to spin like that?
Easy just degrease it and put in a light weight oil.
Won't be great though when you crash your kite and the oil gets replaced with salt water.
What you want is a larger bearing so the flag line goes through causing minimal friction. Then you also need wider mounting points to create that extra torque.

Also just a simple rinse with fresh water to remove any sand once your done for the day.

Oil attracts sand, sand and oil make a nice grinding paste. Dry lube like Sail Kote (?) will be good. I think the better ones use ceramic bearings...

Bigger and wider needs stronger materials to withstand the torque... added weight? Easier to carch slacked lines on?

... what is wrong with under bar swivels?

don't need stronger materials for the increased torque, otherwise you would be breaking the swivel when you untwist it from the increased torque of your hand.

If the bearings are sealed sand won't be getting in any time - yes ceramics are the way to go

I don't like under bar swivels as the main reason they are there is because they don't work in the first place. They also clutter everything up, especially when unhooking.

To stop your flagout line twisting up too much - make the safety line from the chicken loop an inch or two longer...
That solves the problem nicely..

Under bar swivels - why bother... Like I've stated previously, for 3 years I've not untwisted anything, but to alleviate some stressful situations - I've had to 'pull' a few times...

Baa haa haa oh well

I must admit though - the peice of mind knowing that your saftey is not twisted and will release every time easily..

Makes me feel a lot safer

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SaveTheWhales said..
I must admit though - the peice of mind knowing that your saftey is not twisted and will release every time easily..

Makes me feel a lot safer

Yeah. Which is why I like under the bar/top of the QR hand-spinnees too. Don't see how it's more clutter...

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flyingcab said..

Kamikuza said..

flyingcab said..

Kamikuza said..

SaveTheWhales said..
Yeah it's not how freely it spins in a video, it's the front line width and bearing that gives the swivel its untwist ability...
A torque effect.

Yes, but friction will reduce the effective torque effect.

You want your bearings to spin like that?
Easy just degrease it and put in a light weight oil.
Won't be great though when you crash your kite and the oil gets replaced with salt water.
What you want is a larger bearing so the flag line goes through causing minimal friction. Then you also need wider mounting points to create that extra torque.

Also just a simple rinse with fresh water to remove any sand once your done for the day.

Oil attracts sand, sand and oil make a nice grinding paste. Dry lube like Sail Kote (?) will be good. I think the better ones use ceramic bearings...

Bigger and wider needs stronger materials to withstand the torque... added weight? Easier to carch slacked lines on?

... what is wrong with under bar swivels?

don't need stronger materials for the increased torque, otherwise you would be breaking the swivel when you untwist it from the increased torque of your hand.

If the bearings are sealed sand won't be getting in any time - yes ceramics are the way to go

I don't like under bar swivels as the main reason they are there is because they don't work in the first place. They also clutter everything up, especially when unhooking.

Yeah thats probably true. There must be problems with going wider, or companues would just do that, no?

If the bearings are sealed, why oil them?

Don't follow - you mean the under bar swivels you turn by hand, like 2012+ Cab? How don't they work?

Kam...

There's 2 simple ways to explain this for those with little experience in the variety of 'brand' swivels...

1. How many years have the experienced kiters world wide been asking for a bar that's got this this and this... Quite simple and even gave design tips and pics !!
All we got was 1 out of 5... Ever heard of people asking for soft bar ends ??
Which top brands have them.. How many years did it take..

So you can see it's not "Rocket" science and there definately not that skilled or we would have bars with everything that makes it perfect - including a swivel that does 'Not' stop working, which instantly makes a below bar swivel 'Obsolete'
Mutany have got the Swivel right (3+ yrs still smooth on mine) but not some other parts... get the drift..

2. You pay between 3-700$ for a new bar, yes top dollar for something that's around factory 50$ !

In comparison why would you buy a new car with a "Hand" crank. Everyone knows the auto cranking starter motors exist - but they can still milk, the ignorant..
----------------------

As for the width of the body, we are talking a 1cm difference, not much - but a proven 3+ years twist free difference


Sealed bearings - ever heard of general maintenance of your kit that could save your life ?

If not, then i guess you never clean the sand out of your below bar swivel or chicken loop either

I couldn't get hold of a mutiny, using the wainmen retrofitted to the ocean rodeo bar and is going strong, twist free.

Using double front flagging though, but a ball and a ring would be easy to fit on the safety for a single front.

EastCc - awesome, where did you but the Wainman swivel.

No answer from the dealer in this side..

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SaveTheWhales said..
EastCc - awesome, where did you but the Wainman swivel.

No answer from the dealer in this side..

Stonker Boards VIC has one in stock i think $80 ish bucks.