I am a beginner, and just recently I took another lesson to get me comfortable (again) with the equipment in a controlled environment, and to practice waterstarts. I have done a few before, but never knew what to do when I got up on the board.

At the start of the lesson I was told they have 12m and 14m kites, and that they would use the 12m. The wind was somewhere around 15 knots, and dropping off at times. The instructor weighed 75kgs, and I weigh 100kgs. For anyone not sure of the difference that makes, grab a 20kg bag of cement and try kiting with that onboard.

After the initial checking I was comfortable with safety, and upwind body dragging to see if I knew anything about kite control, I was attempting waterstarts. Initially I would get up and then go a short distance and then fall in. I would sine the kite to generate more power, but still fall in. Sometimes I would water start and then once on the board there would be almost nothing. With the bar pulled in, there was almost no power.

So the question I have is, are there any instructors out there that even try and match you with a kite to suit your weight?

Does it matter much at this stage? I have been windsurfing for 13 years or so, and my understanding of wind strengths is pretty good. Once you get better at windsurfing you can sail a smaller sail than a beginner of the same weight and you can handle a bigger sail than a beginner. I am pretty sure that when I get better at kiting I will find that a smaller kite more manageable as I will have the skills to work it to generate more power.

I can understand that you wouldn’t want the student to have too much power, but in this case I felt that the kite power was marginal and really didn’t give me much to work with. Body dragging upwind is not practical without enough power.

The lesson was excellent, the instructor was very good, but I feel that a better kite size would have been the 14m.

I have had this before, so I am starting to wonder, does anyone try to match the kite size to the student, even if it means that they as the instructor would be over powered (or even underpowered) on the same kite? Or is it where the instructor is only comfortable with the kite they would use in those conditions so can’t adjust this for heavier or lighter students?

A skilled instructor will be able to hold down any kite a heavy beginner can hold.

Rider weight makes less impact that you expect. Perhaps 1 kite size different. use a 14 instead of a 12 for example.

Found the same thing when I was learning. Your comments are valid .

You need enough power to get going and power to weight ratio is the key measure . The board size is critical too. For a 100kg in 15 knots with a standard twin tip you need a bigger kite or more wind . You can retard your progress a long time with the wrong equipment.

There are instructors around who will take weight into account but there seem to be plenty who don't advise the right kite size for heavier riders and are probably worried about excessive power in the hands of a beginner .

It sounds like you know enough to keep yourself and others safe. You may find you are ready to practice by yourself with the right kite size for the wind and you won't look back once up and riding which is not far away by the sounds of it .

Enjoy your kiting .

I'm just learning too mate so take my two cents with a grain of salt.

Im about 88kgs and was on a 9m kite in lessons with only about 15 knots, I felt like it was underpowered too. Made riding difficult beyond water starting.

Once I could rig, assisted launch and land, body drag, relaunch and water start and ride a little I just started practicing myself (on a 12m switchblade). It took a few sessions of face planting in the water but getting the hang of it now, probably third time out myself after lessons it started to click. I had the same problem that I'd water start then lose power. I found I was holding the bar in too long after the initial pull in of the bar and diving the kite to generate power to launch, make sure you push the bar back out or you might be chocking the kite causing it to back stall a bit.

Like the other guys said get a decent size kite, at least 12m and a board for someone your weight and practice in a spot in your area recommended for begginers. The bumps and bruises are worth it once you get the hang of it.

Good luck.

Hi sotired

I think you're missing the main issue here: you need more wind.

I'm guessing you had a lesson in one of those days last week when it was 35-40 degrees weather and winds were hovering around 15 knots... those winds are super weak i.e. have less density and the majority of experienced kiters were struggling to ride those days in Perth, even with BIG kites.

As a windsurfer you understand that under 18 knots not much is happening, well it's the same with beginners kiters in Perth. If the sand is not moving on the beach and the water isn't filled with white caps everywhere = not enough wind.

Your weight in an important factor and yes you will need a bigger kite AND a bigger board compared to the average newbie.

an 11m or 12m kite should do the trick just fine, provided it's a grunty (powerful) kite along with a board around 142cm ish. 14m kite is an overkill as you will struggle with that size in winds above 20 knots.

With the winds we have in Perth you don't really need to worry about going out in less than 18 knots, just wait till it gets stronger and have an easier time.

Light wind is very technical and will require a lot of experience to enjoy along with light wind specific equipment.... this is if light winds interest you in the first place.

Christian

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cbulota said..
Hi sotired

I think you're missing the main issue here: you need more wind.

I'm guessing you had a lesson in one of those days last week when it was 35-40 degrees weather and winds were hovering around 15 knots... those winds are super weak i.e. have less density and the majority of experienced kiters were struggling to ride those days in Perth, even with BIG kites.

As a windsurfer you understand that under 18 knots not much is happening, well it's the same with beginners kiters in Perth. If the sand is not moving on the beach and the water isn't filled with white caps everywhere = not enough wind.

Your weight in an important factor and yes you will need a bigger kite AND a bigger board compared to the average newbie.

an 11m or 12m kite should do the trick just fine, provided it's a grunty (powerful) kite along with a board around 142cm ish. 14m kite is an overkill as you will struggle with that size in winds above 20 knots.

With the winds we have in Perth you don't really need to worry about going out in less than 18 knots, just wait till it gets stronger and have an easier time.

Light wind is very technical and will require a lot of experience to enjoy along with light wind specific equipment.... this is if light winds interest you in the first place.

Christian

Hi Christian, this was on Friday. The wind picked up later in the day, but was light in the morning. When I get some experience, I want to be able to kite in this wind strength.

With my windsurfing gear I would have no problem sailing an 8.5m in that wind.

Given that a lesson is at a particular time, would you say that the lesson should have been cancelled or that we just use a bigger kite?

I own an 11m and a 14m. I don't have the luxury of waiting for ideal conditions, so waiting for a steady 20 knots is not possible.

What do you do with your lessons? Do you match kite size to the rider's weight?

Maybe I need to find an instructor that weighs the same as me?

Friday was a cold front (not a sea breeze), and the wind graph from Ocean Reef that day varied up and down all afternoon between 14 and 27 knots, not ideal learning conditions. The morning was cloudy with some rain and the wind seemed most unreliable at that time.

About your lesson: I always told my students that having a lesson in lighter winds is actually an advantage for your future progression. Light winds highlights all your technical weaknesses (kite control and board control) and helps you have a better understanding of how the kite flies, how to avoid backstalling (pulling the bar all the way in won't give you more power in light wind). In light winds, your water start technique has to be spot on with the kite and the board.

With the right instruction, you could definitely get going in a cold 15 knots on a 12m kite with a BIG board at 100kg, however, it will require more effort and the right advice. On that day, that 15 knots of cold wind was actually as powerful as an 18-20 knots hot sea breeze.

There is always a fine line between being correctly powered and overpowered. Most beginners think: bigger is better. Yes bigger kites and bigger boards will get you going more easily, but even if slightly overpowered you will inevitably develop a poor stance, struggle to ride upwind, etc.

In short, most beginners learn to kite overpowered as it's easier to get going and just ''seems'' like the right way to do it. Learning to kite with less power takes more time, more effort but you automatically develop the correct technique and become a far more efficient kiter. It can take years to correct an overpowered stance...

If your idea of learning to kite is to barely have to move the kite without entering the power zone to water start and get going, you will most likely always be overpowered.

Students are sometimes quick to blame the instructor/conditions/equipment when they can't get going easily where most of the time it's simply a matter of developing the right skills and practice, practice...

If I was teaching a 100kg guy in the same conditions I would've most likely also used no more than 12m kite and just gave you a BIG board (at least 142cm) along with the right advice :)

Christian

Thanks guys. I have taken a look at the charts and I really think I would have been better off with the 14m. Despite that the lesson was excellent and enough to give me confidence to go out by myself, which is mainly what I wanted.

I first learned how to windsurf in a gusty location in Aus with variable wind and deep water. Learning to (windsurf) waterstart was very difficult. So, I went to Fiji for 3 weeks and spent 2 of those learning to waterstart and the rest sailing. Learning that same waterstart in Australia would have taken years to get the right conditions to teach the right technique and then to get it to an efficient level. Now, I don't even have to think about doing it and can waterstart sometimes to only find there is not enough wind to keep going.

I'm sure the first instructor would have said 'yeah its possible here, it just needs more technique and more practice', but the second instructor in Fiji had the right rig, the right wind strength and shallow water to practice in. So, my lesson from that was that if you want to learn the hard slow way, ignore the conditions. If you want to learn the optimal way, get the right sized gear in the right location.

I would agree with what Christian has said about light winds, but if an instructor offered me a 9m kite in 15 knots I would be looking for a different instructor.

I have had years of listening to instructors half my weight telling me I should be able to plane with the same equipment as them, and now, I know that basic physics means that you need more power for heavier weight. I think for some people their experience is just with their own weight, so they can't translate that someone with a different weight.

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cbulota said..
Hi sotired

I think you're missing the main issue here: you need more wind.

Ahh, it was a lesson at a particular time, so more wind was not an option. Changing kite sizes was.

I'm about 105kgs and also a beginner. I'm reasonably sure that I haven't been out in much more than about 18knots but typically more like 15knots.

The instructor that I go with tends to utilise a small-ish kite (9m and 11m) and a very large light-wind board. From what I've read - the perceived wisdom for learning seems to be go with a small kite and a big board - so I hadn't thought too much about the kite size. But the board size is definitely part of the story (as far as I can tell).

WRT learning - I also found that I could get up on the board but that the hardest part is to maintain some momentum (the transition to actually kitesurfing). But I've definitely found that with enough input the kite (even the 9m) will generate the power to get going. I was going to write more but I'm sure all the stuff about pulling the bar in too far (which I do a lot) has been said many times.

I'm not suggesting that your observations on the kite size are incorrect - just that a good route for learning may also be the same kite with a bigger board rather than a bigger kite.

Best regards


Sam

Thought I would add my two bobs worth, I went out on sunday afternoon fist solo after 5 lessons, forgot everything the instructor told me, got up a couple of times on my off side and was choking both the bar and kite, then crashed my kite on the shoreline into some limestone boulders and tore it to shreds,

positives for the day, I stood up, I didn't get hurt I bought a cheap kite to learn on.other local kiter's were tolerant and helpful

Negatives - I am not fit I learnt on a seat harness, but brought a waist harness back to a seat harness for this noob.

learnings: I need to practice practice practice.

I was on a 12 m in 15 knot winds and power was good skill was S**T.

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cHardBreeze said..
Thought I would add my two bobs worth, I went out on sunday afternoon fist solo after 5 lessons, forgot everything the instructor told me, got up a couple of times on my off side and was choking both the bar and kite, then crashed my kite on the shoreline into some limestone boulders and tore it to shreds,

positives for the day, I stood up, I didn't get hurt I bought a cheap kite to learn on.other local kiter's were tolerant and helpful

Negatives - I am not fit I learnt on a seat harness, but brought a waist harness back to a seat harness for this noob.

learnings: I need to practice practice practice.

I was on a 12 m in 15 knot winds and power was good skill was S**T.

Good positive attitude, do the practice and before long your last sentence will be

"I was on a 12 m in 15 knot winds and power was good skill was S**T HOT."

imho bigger kites are somewhat easier to fly as they react slower. although the difference between a 9 and 12 is much more aparent than with a 12 to 15 kite...

I am just under 80kgs and started on a 10 metre ozone reo for my first season. When the wind kicked in I couldn't believe how much the depower took so much power out the kite. I also used a surfboard and found this so much easier to get started. At 100kg plus I reckon a 12 metre would be perfect. If you were 60 kg I would go an 8 metre. I reckon about 1 metre each 10kgs.

. With the bar pulled in, there was almost no power.

Yep, pulling the bar in only generates power when you already have wind in the kite, pulling the bar in when the kite is steady and you are not moving will actually depower it by pushing wind out.

starting out, water starts, you want speed, you want bang, up and going, what the ****, fall over, smash kite into water, let go of bar, f?n, that was cool, do it again

a lot of people equate kite control with being able to keep it in the air where you want it

real kite control is keeping it where you want it while being able to turn on the power with a flick of the wrist

thinking you have it and actually getting it is a bigger spread than between 12 and 14 metres

you might be better of going for some powered body drags to learn how to turn on the power

if I were learning in wa I'd do an hour or two with Christian

After a quick scan of the comments, I didn't see any mention of board size.
I learned to kite on a 16M kite and at 100Kgs, this was definitely helpful. But a bigger board would have made it heaps easier! IMHO, for learners, board size this is more critical than kite size. Just like when learning wind surfing, the displacement of a bigger board makes a world of difference.
Regarding kite size, I'm around your weight and my 17M kite will take me from 6 knots to about 22. My 12M will take me from about 18 knots to 28 knots.
If I use my Spleene monster door then my 12M kite can be used in lighter winds - down to around 13 knots. On my 142, my 17M kite will take me from 12 knots to about 22. However, using my Spleene monster door, my 17M kite can be used when others are sitting on the beach - pretty much just need enough wind to get the kite in the air.
Sure, when it's very light wind, I'm just mowing the lawn. However, I love sailing and for me, being on the water is better than sitting on the beach wishing for more wind... so I'm still smiling. Also, when there is little wind, the water is flat, you have space for yourself, and effortlessly gliding along at speed is quite exhilarating. (don't tell anyone - ok?)
If you get a decent 17M kite, with plenty of depower, you should feel very comfortable on it. I mention this because I don't think that going from a 12 to a 14 is going to be of great value.With a 17M that turns well, at 100KGs, you can still be well powered on a smallish twin tip in 15 knots. As you progress, you can still do a lot of tricks and some big jumps.
So the bottom line is:
Bigger board + smaller kite = fun
12M to 14M not as smart as 12M to 17M kite for 100KG rider.
I hope this helps!
Best wishes and happy kiting!
Lee Brogden
CEO Buzz Kites
BTW, lighter riders rarely appreciate what another 20KGs does so I like your cement bag analogy!