Just working up to mega loops.

I've got a few questions.

Now most guys appear to like 18-22m lines, but my experience with 20-26 makes me think it's safer to learn on the 26's. Let me explain......

I feel the trick with this is to not let the yank pull your centre of gravity away from landing directly downwind. Most of the time as long as I land backfoot first and directly downwind I have better success. So getting used to a little yank first makes sense before going for the 15m lines kite below your superman method. With the 26m lines the initial kiteloop is higher in the window, less kick. So the question is..... Do I stick with this until I make 20 or 30 in a row before moving onto the shorter lines? (Deeper kite loops)

The second question...... After the initial loop, I feel it's nearly always better to have the heli loop on the opposite side of the wind window. Is this a hard and fast rule? Everytime I've looped both times on the same side it ends badly.(feels like significantly less kite support)

Just trying to do this with the least chance of a major injury.

26m lines are not optimal as the kite is slower to turn. I find 22/23m to be the least extreme. I hate using short lines (ie 17 or 18 or even shorter) the Core videos make my knees shudder. As long as the wind is steady and strong I like 20m as the kite goes lower and catches you easier but if the wind is **** it can go badly. I'd go slightly shorter to get the most out of it.

Most of the time I second heliloop after I have landed. That's not by choice, it's just I either don't get enough height, or not windy enough. Keep in mind the pros are using 9m kites in 40 knots.

That being said. I did a loop the other day at Happy Valley, the wind was up and I was on my 7m. I completed the first loop, was still so far up in the air, I busted another loop the same direction. It was kind of unusual, must have been caught in an uplift.

Also use boots. It helps you commit and stop being a panzy. Plus the rocker in better with a wake style board.

When I second loop late, I also need to keep a hand on my chicken loop, sometimes you will get slack lines when you heading directly downwind.

last thing you want to do is unhook.

Have fun.

Select to expand quote

Drury said..
26m lines are not optimal as the kite is slower to turn. I find 22/23m to be the least extreme. I hate using short lines (ie 17 or 18 or even shorter) the Core videos make my knees shudder. As long as the wind is steady and strong I like 20m as the kite goes lower and catches you easier but if the wind is **** it can go badly. I'd go slightly shorter to get the most out of it.

Yeah agree 26m lines may not be optimal but learning on 26 as appossed to 20 definitely removes the yank, or so it seems to me? With the kiteloop being higher in the wind window, when it goes wrong, I also feel more kite support whilst changing to the fetal position.

I know what I'm doing is just a kiteloop with a heli landing (deeper loops to come for sure), but the few stacks I've had have made me want a less violent learning curve.

To answer the kite speed problem, I try and do it on the smallest possible kite for the conditions. (8 instead of 10 on the 26m lines) Now if you said the 26m lines make the kite feel sloppy, yeah for sure but I also feel I can get higher on the initial jump with 26s as apposed to the 20's.

Any chance somebody can confirm the hypothesis for me? Or is it flat out too dangerous?

Select to expand quote

Underoath said..
Most of the time I second heliloop after I have landed. That's not by choice, it's just I either don't get enough height, or not windy enough. Keep in mind the pros are using 9m kites in 40 knots.

That being said. I did a loop the other day at Happy Valley, the wind was up and I was on my 7m. I completed the first loop, was still so far up in the air, I busted another loop the same direction. It was kind of unusual, must have been caught in an uplift.

Also use boots. It helps you commit and stop being a panzy. Plus the rocker in better with a wake style board.

Yeah I'll make it a little clearer, I've also done multpile heli loops after the initial loop on the landings. Maybe the 26m lines (lack of feel) have trained me to just fishing pole until I make water contact again.

What I'm talking about is, if just before the lines slack and I pull the first loop.(I'll call directly downwind 0 degrees, riding right to left) After the first loop (could be bad kite position) but I feel the pull is more from around 20 degrees (not zero). This only gets worse each kiteloop with the same hand (has felt as bad as 45, maybe not but just feels like it).

I was thinking that's why it has to be opposite sides For the first 2 loops?

Maybe I'm just describing a bad "catch???" Or "Dirty catch" Meaning if you have to loop opposite sides, its a result of panicked kite flying and not relaxing.

Normally when I loose the kite on a boost I kiteloop to keep the lines tight. I'm now down looping to get a feel for that as practice. For the record I still jump better natural than goofy.

Boots are a dream for my 115kg fat arse and size 15 feet, sure do wish I didn't have to worry about the feet though.

Select to expand quote

SavIb said...

Drury said..
26m lines are not optimal as the kite is slower to turn. I find 22/23m to be the least extreme. I hate using short lines (ie 17 or 18 or even shorter) the Core videos make my knees shudder. As long as the wind is steady and strong I like 20m as the kite goes lower and catches you easier but if the wind is **** it can go badly. I'd go slightly shorter to get the most out of it.

Yeah agree 26m lines may not be optimal but learning on 26 as appossed to 20 definitely removes the yank, or so it seems to me? With the kiteloop being higher in the wind window, when it goes wrong, I also feel more kite support whilst changing to the fetal position.

I know what I'm doing is just a kiteloop with a heli landing (deeper loops to come for sure), but the few stacks I've had have made me want a less violent learning curve.

To answer the kite speed problem, I try and do it on the smallest possible kite for the conditions. (8 instead of 10 on the 26m lines) Now if you said the 26m lines make the kite feel sloppy, yeah for sure but I also feel I can get higher on the initial jump with 26s as apposed to the 20's.

Any chance somebody can confirm the hypothesis for me? Or is it flat out too dangerous?

Would the long lines ruin the catch? I think I would rather a violent pull and a solid catch then a easy pull and less catch. I hate free falling because the kite hasn't caught me.

Select to expand quote

kemp90 said..

SavIb said...

Drury said..
26m lines are not optimal as the kite is slower to turn. I find 22/23m to be the least extreme. I hate using short lines (ie 17 or 18 or even shorter) the Core videos make my knees shudder. As long as the wind is steady and strong I like 20m as the kite goes lower and catches you easier but if the wind is **** it can go badly. I'd go slightly shorter to get the most out of it.

Yeah agree 26m lines may not be optimal but learning on 26 as appossed to 20 definitely removes the yank, or so it seems to me? With the kiteloop being higher in the wind window, when it goes wrong, I also feel more kite support whilst changing to the fetal position.

I know what I'm doing is just a kiteloop with a heli landing (deeper loops to come for sure), but the few stacks I've had have made me want a less violent learning curve.

To answer the kite speed problem, I try and do it on the smallest possible kite for the conditions. (8 instead of 10 on the 26m lines) Now if you said the 26m lines make the kite feel sloppy, yeah for sure but I also feel I can get higher on the initial jump with 26s as apposed to the 20's.

Any chance somebody can confirm the hypothesis for me? Or is it flat out too dangerous?

Would the long lines ruin the catch?

Yup that's part of what I'm asking for sure.

Also possible the deceleration I'm feeling isn't catch but just kiteloop braking effect from heli loop. Maybe I'm not letting the kite go behind far enough before I heliloop.

Played with an xensr and noticed hard landings (bad kite redirect or missed heli loop are around 3.5g's) but a good heli loop comes in under 1g on touchdown.

For reference....... My last failed mega loop had a 9g crash...... Or so the xensr said (though I was going to hospital for sure).

What's the difference between a kite loop or a mega loop?

I recon I have landed 200 loops, but only recon I have thrown a hand full of Megga Loops!

I prefer 24m lines. Harder to get higher with short 19m lines. Unless your using kickers!

Sav, what conditions and kite size are you looping in?

So I'm saying a mega loop kicks you almost horizontal, kite doesn't have to be below you but 45 degrees or shallower would be my standard. You definitely feel the extra lift up along with the kick.

Conditions vary a little, because I suck at it but never try less than 25-28knots up to high 30's, 10 or 8's only flat water with semi gusty wind. The gusty wind part is always in the back of my mind as I've had a few good wind direction change crashes. (simlar to a mid loop stall)

I 100% agree it harder to get solid height on shorter lines, that's half the reason I'm still on 26's.

Another question for people who have learnt this in the past few years,

How many heavy wipeouts did you have before you start getting 90% of them?

What hooked in tricks where you working on at the time you tried this? (just trying to gauge skill level)

Im currently trying to get Dimitri's toeside nose grab frontroll kiteloop transition. I'm missing it due to poor toeside popping technique......So I think anyways.

Select to expand quote

Underoath said..
What's the difference between a kite loop or a mega loop?

Nothing.

Question: What's the difference between a Backmobe and an Ultramobe???
Answer: Some idiot calling it that.

(turning around with a loop is a Downloop)

I thought a megaloop implied some type of deeper kiteloop jump, followed by some type of momentum braking kite manoeuvre. Would be similar to the difference between an underpowered Backmobe and an overpowered one (to use your analogy), both Backmobes but, one looks cooler than the other and the part I'm getting concerned about, one has more consequences.

I don't think you could ride away without the second loop (must be a reflex reaction), just seems to have too much downwind momentum.

Select to expand quote

SavIb said..
So I'm saying a mega loop kicks you almost horizontal, kite doesn't have to be below you but 45 degrees or shallower would be my standard.

well my "standard" is a megaloop is when you jump and loop the kite below you.

didnt realise we could have our own standards and just make bull**** up so we can claim to be doing tricks we cant. also 20-22m lines 26 is just outrageously dangerous youll not get caught one time and thatll be your last. if your older then 30 youll take weeks to recover from the impact

Agree kite below you is a mega loop. But I'm over 30 and trying to learn this.

Also agree that the extra height I think I'm getting from 26m lines compared to 20 would not be beneficial if I looped the kite anywhere near horizontal ( forget about below). 6m is too much distance to make up (maybe I get 1-2 meters extra height from the 26m lines), so like you said it's too dangerous to go horizontal.

Again I'm just learning this trick, spent hrs watching videos and still cannot nail it. I'm still working on controlling the deeper loops to not pull my body off centre. Gone in head/neck first a few times and consider myself lucky to not be injured already.

So Kozzie you don't think that 26's allow you to loop the kite higher in the wind window, meaning less kick and shorter distance for the kite to come back overhead?

I have very fast turning kites but the shorter the lines the closer the kite comes to the water on the loop (assuming similar input force).

Kozzie, do you have to alternate the side of the window with the 2 kiteloops?

ditch the 26m lines and use a wave as a ramp to make it easier for you.

with your "second" loop guessing you mean the one you use to land its going to be better to alternate it from the first one. useually its ramp a wave jump backhand megaloop then forhand kiteloop as you land and to stop any penuleming and keep kite moving so you can ride away.

hope that answers what you are asking

you need to figure out if you want to do a kiteloop or a megaloop. its not like you can build yourself upto a mega by doing deeper kiteloops at 45 degrees or whatever your trying. you just need to make sure its the perfect conditions to throw a megaloop (short lines small c kite super windy board with rocker helps for landing boots help it from flinging off a big ramp will help with your height and getting the kite under you. if its not all these conditions then just forget about "practiceing it" and just work on your kiteloops.

oh and when you do finally pull the trigger wear a vest ive fractured ribs and got winded so bad thought i was just going to drown slowly. seriously the impact of not getting caught by your kite after a megaloop is intense its what i can only imagine shellshock is like you cant breath your in agony cant move and your minds raceing i swear even my hearing was ****ed from the impact for ahwhile.

oh and also that "pull" you seem to want to eliminate by useing longer lines... that pull is what allows you to get so horizontal and the kite to get under ya, its all or nothing with these.

- Jeff Tobias arguably did the first proper Kiteloop and it was called as such for a pretty long time (2003-4).

- Bertrand Fluery was the next guy to push it hard often on super short lines and was going fully above the kite, catching the wind again sometimes and riding it out smooth (2004-7).

- Booney and Balls (Australians, Melbourne) Invented the Kiteloop Handlepass not long after seeing Jeff Kiteloop. Their idea was to get fully above the kite and then do a 360 or Mobe. They did KL3, KLkgb and a few others before anyone else did it. They stopped doing them not long after when people started doing a little loop above their head and making it look crappy.

- A while later either Ruben or Aaron (I think) decided to call it a "Megaloop" to draw attention to what they were doing, they didn't do anything that hadn't already been done or named previous.


You can't really "Kiteloop" when in contact with the water, that's called a Downloop, or Downturn. (Downloop used to be known as a forward kiteloop jump).

While you may think it makes sense to call a big Kiteloop a "Megaloop" it really doesn't... Do you make a distinction between a "jump" and a "megajump"? No. Also it's all in the eye of the beholder, just because you give it a new name because of height doesn't mean someone will use that name right .

@Kozzie, Ewan Jaspan, Kevin and a few others almost always Kiteloop on long lines.

Out of curiosity, dose this happen to anyone else. Kite looping in the flats I get a solid pull and a good catch. And the same sesh I'll go out to the waves, get good hight but not much side pull and zero catch. It just feels like free falling straight after I start the loop. This happen to anyone else?

Select to expand quote

Kozzie said..
ditch the 26m lines and use a wave as a ramp to make it easier for you.

with your "second" loop guessing you mean the one you use to land its going to be better to alternate it from the first one. useually its ramp a wave jump backhand megaloop then forhand kiteloop as you land and to stop any penuleming and keep kite moving so you can ride away.

hope that answers what you are asking

you need to figure out if you want to do a kiteloop or a megaloop. its not like you can build yourself upto a mega by doing deeper kiteloops at 45 degrees or whatever your trying. you just need to make sure its the perfect conditions to throw a megaloop (short lines small c kite super windy board with rocker helps for landing boots help it from flinging off a big ramp will help with your height and getting the kite under you. if its not all these conditions then just forget about "practiceing it" and just work on your kiteloops.

oh and when you do finally pull the trigger wear a vest ive fractured ribs and got winded so bad thought i was just going to drown slowly. seriously the impact of not getting caught by your kite after a megaloop is intense its what i can only imagine shellshock is like you cant breath your in agony cant move and your minds raceing i swear even my hearing was ****ed from the impact for ahwhile.

oh and also that "pull" you seem to want to eliminate by useing longer lines... that pull is what allows you to get so horizontal and the kite to get under ya, its all or nothing with these.

Yeah thats what I'm after for sure (second loop and conditions). All tricks are condition dependant and I'm definitely forcing the issue in the wrong conditions (I'm impatient). I'll def go back to 20's in the waves on the next attempt. At least I can try and time the attempt with a broken wave to lower the surface tension when I ineviatably f%^k up.

Wish I Could get out on my 10 more that 3 times a year with the sea breezes though.

So that takes care of conditions.

Kozzie / Anyone, what about getting bent out of shape in the air? From what I've read it's all about keeping shoulders square to the kite. I've tried this but still feel I need to force the bar around a bit.

Is is there any trick or manoeuvre you can practice to prepare for the kick. (Body control wise) as I know I'm getting this wrong at least 50 percent of the time.

I tried just ripping the kite across the window into a loop (whilst being super powered) but it feels more swingy than the downwind drive (albeit slightly off angle) that I think I'm struggling with.

Maybe be its just another "Progress is Painfull" adventure.

Thanks for the help,

Select to expand quote

kemp90 said..
Out of curiosity, dose this happen to anyone else. Kite looping in the flats I get a solid pull and a good catch. And the same sesh I'll go out to the waves, get good hight but not much side pull and zero catch. It just feels like free falling straight after I start the loop. This happen to anyone else?

Can only talk about the looping part, there's this place I kite occasionally that has open ocean (outside) to the flat area (inside). The outside has this area close to the entrance (sand dunes maybe 30-40m away) where the wind sorta shifts. Upwind land would have to be 10-15 kilometres away. The inside is gustier but the outside although smoother definitely swings some angles. I eat it way more on the outside than the inside so I'm just super careful In that spot.

Are you sure the wind is same? Because another question I have on big kiteloops is.

Do pure c kites give you a little more room for error in either gusty or shifty conditions? Are they less likely to stall mid loop? If so buy how much (just approximate) I'm currently on Nitro4's and have noticed most serious loopers are all on c's.

Select to expand quote

kemp90 said...
Out of curiosity, dose this happen to anyone else. Kite looping in the flats I get a solid pull and a good catch. And the same sesh I'll go out to the waves, get good hight but not much side pull and zero catch. It just feels like free falling straight after I start the loop. This happen to anyone else?

Sounds like the waves just messed up your pop / timing. Too much forward speed, not enough tension in the lines when initiating the loop?

Select to expand quote

SavIb said..

kemp90 said..
Out of curiosity, dose this happen to anyone else. Kite looping in the flats I get a solid pull and a good catch. And the same sesh I'll go out to the waves, get good hight but not much side pull and zero catch. It just feels like free falling straight after I start the loop. This happen to anyone else?

Can only talk about the looping part, there's this place I kite occasionally that has open ocean (outside) to the flat area (inside). The outside has this area close to the entrance (sand dunes maybe 30-40m away) where the wind sorta shifts. Upwind land would have to be 10-15 kilometres away. The inside is gustier but the outside although smoother definitely swings some angles. I eat it way more on the outside than the inside so I'm just super careful In that spot.

Are you sure the wind is same? Because another question I have on big kiteloops is.

Do pure c kites give you a little more room for error in either gusty or shifty conditions? Are they less likely to stall mid loop? If so buy how much (just approximate) I'm currently on Nitro4's and have noticed most serious loopers are all on c's.

C kites give you the most aggressive kiteloops. If you want to learn to kiteloop but are afraid of the hard yanking, get a wave kite. Wavekites are very direct in stearing but dont yank as much.

All I want to know is where is all the megaloop footage from WA today???

Select to expand quote

bene313 said..
All I want to know is where is all the megaloop footage from WA today???

Got lost along with all the ultramobe footage I think.