Coming from armstrong gear I am used to the tail being under the fuse and not above as it is on duotone foils. To me its a bit strange because if its under, screws dont have to take the load but fuse would... anyways, I've been breaching the tail numerous times which causes wipe outs and it annoys me. Has anyone tried to mod this and put the tail wing under - or have ideas on how to make this work?
The lift generated by the stab is downwards so it's actually opposite to what you say, if mounted on bottom it would be held by bolts!
which foil and fuse are you using? I've never had a problem breaching the stab and I'm not sure the 15mm difference being bottom mounted would make any difference to it breaching ?Select to expand quotehappysam said..
Coming from armstrong gear I am used to the tail being under the fuse and not above as it is on duotone foils. To me its a bit strange because if its under, screws dont have to take the load but fuse would... anyways, I've been breaching the tail numerous times which causes wipe outs and it annoys me. Has anyone tried to mod this and put the tail wing under - or have ideas on how to make this work?
North are same as Duotone and designer said this was deliberate to keep stab clear of turbulence from front foil.
Whatever, I also get wipeouts/ventilation/breaching of stab with Duotone, I guess it's ventilation of mast in chop.
Select to expand quotepatronus said..
North are same as Duotone and designer said this was deliberate to keep stab clear of turbulence from front foil.
Whatever, I also get wipeouts/ventilation/breaching of stab with Duotone, I guess it's ventilation of mast in chop.
are north and duotone compatible wing/fuse? I'd love to try the wiz but not enough to shell out for a whole system
I once fitted with some 'mods' an F-one stab to a NP fuse. And it was a complete f*** up exercise. Worst ride ever. I tossed the stab in the bin afterwards together with all my BS theories. 
Massive ego bruise
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..
The lift generated by the stab is downwards so it's actually opposite to what you say, if mounted on bottom it would be held by bolts!
which foil and fuse are you using? I've never had a problem breaching the stab and I'm not sure the 15mm difference being bottom mounted would make any difference to it breaching ?happysam said..
Coming from armstrong gear I am used to the tail being under the fuse and not above as it is on duotone foils. To me its a bit strange because if its under, screws dont have to take the load but fuse would... anyways, I've been breaching the tail numerous times which causes wipe outs and it annoys me. Has anyone tried to mod this and put the tail wing under - or have ideas on how to make this work?
Thats true, but I was mostly thinking of The load it gets from jumping as it should be More stressful on The bolts than it would be if it was below. I ride 850 carve with 180P tail. Probably it has to much lift for me and a 650 would erase this issue (or smaller stab, Will try with H145 tail)
it just never happened like that before because now the tail is a bit higher than the foil itself and I usually ride the foil very close to the surface.
Select to expand quotepatronus said..
North are same as Duotone and designer said this was deliberate to keep stab clear of turbulence from front foil.
Whatever, I also get wipeouts/ventilation/breaching of stab with Duotone, I guess it's ventilation of mast in chop.
Never thought of it like that. But never had turbulance issues on the Armstrong setup tho.
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..
I once fitted with some 'mods' an F-one stab to a NP fuse. And it was a complete f*** up exercise. Worst ride ever. I tossed the stab in the bin afterwards together with all my BS theories. Massive ego bruise
Hahaha - I hear you
Select to expand quoteTooMuchEpoxy said..patronus said..
North are same as Duotone and designer said this was deliberate to keep stab clear of turbulence from front foil.
Whatever, I also get wipeouts/ventilation/breaching of stab with Duotone, I guess it's ventilation of mast in chop.
are north and duotone compatible wing/fuse? I'd love to try the wiz but not enough to shell out for a whole system
Nope, brands all seem proprietary
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
Select to expand quotehappysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..happysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))
just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..happysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Could be something else but some kind of ventilation is happening
Remember that a 0.5 degree shim can make a pretty noticeable difference in how a foil behaves. A modification like you are proposing needs to be VERY precise to maintain the ride characteristics of the foil. I had an aftermarket fuselage from a company that makes a lot of them. It rode like trash and I had to do some very aggressive (almost 5 degrees) shimming just to make the foil functional. I kind of learned my lesson with mixing and matching gear after that experience and lacking the correct tools and techniques, I definitely wouldn't attempt anything requiring this precision myself.
Select to expand quotehappysam said..leepasty said..happysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))
just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)
I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead
I also found the stock setup on the D/LAB 850 to be a bit liftier than I wanted... was going to try the S Stab from the Whizz 850... may also try the -0.3 shim.
As someone who is still relatively new I think there's something to be said for the stab breaching first. It gives you warning you are too high and you can recover before breaching the front foil and wiping out. North mentions that as a benefit on top of not having the stab in the path of the front foil, and breaching just the stab is not a big deal at all, doesn't really cause me any wipeouts. You hear the sucking water as much as you feel anything.
In theory if the stab loses lift it should result in you pitching down and recovering right?
I feel like if you are frequently falling from breaching specifically the stab something else about the setup isn't working well.
My experience is that I can much more easily recover a breaching wingtip than kicking out a stabilizer. If I lay over a turn and breach a stabilizer I'm going down. Thats one of the reasons why I don't like big span stabilizers.
The North marketing jargon is dumb. When you are breaching its because you are laying over turns hard. This "early warning" nonsense is more a reference to overfoiling, which rarely happens to anyone above a novice level.
Getting the stabilizer into clean flow and out of the dirty flow of the front wing might make some sense, but the "early warning" breach doesn't pass muster. Either way kind of feels like they are manufacturing reasons for why they engineered it like this, but there's probably some other (non-performance-oriented) reason for the design decision.
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
Remember that a 0.5 degree shim can make a pretty noticeable difference in how a foil behaves. A modification like you are proposing needs to be VERY precise to maintain the ride characteristics of the foil. I had an aftermarket fuselage from a company that makes a lot of them. It rode like trash and I had to do some very aggressive (almost 5 degrees) shimming just to make the foil functional. I kind of learned my lesson with mixing and matching gear after that experience and lacking the correct tools and techniques, I definitely wouldn't attempt anything requiring this precision myself.
hear you :) I've tried shimming it, I think I just by nature hold the foil very high as it is the sweet spot and not used to the high tail when going into sharp turns on waves. I have a small concern about the shim too but I may sound too whiny haha
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
I also found the stock setup on the D/LAB 850 to be a bit liftier than I wanted... was going to try the S Stab from the Whizz 850... may also try the -0.3 shim.
I tried the S stab but i think it was the one from whizz 1000. It makes turns even more turny - adds a bit of glide but is more pitch sensitive. Will receive 620 glide2 this week hopefully it likes to stay a bit lower =D
Select to expand quotejoeballow said..
As someone who is still relatively new I think there's something to be said for the stab breaching first. It gives you warning you are too high and you can recover before breaching the front foil and wiping out. North mentions that as a benefit on top of not having the stab in the path of the front foil, and breaching just the stab is not a big deal at all, doesn't really cause me any wipeouts. You hear the sucking water as much as you feel anything.
In theory if the stab loses lift it should result in you pitching down and recovering right?
I feel like if you are frequently falling from breaching specifically the stab something else about the setup isn't working well.
Just to dont give the wrong impression - I rarely wipe and I have a lot of fun on the foils - BUT - I've noticed some differences when swapping foil systems and want to debunk where it comes from - Which leads to the guess that the tail is breaching because it often happens when I do sharp turns on waves and it really feels like it is the tail - but I might be wrong I have full duotone kit and use the recommended stuff - just wish i ordered the 650 instead =D
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
My experience is that I can much more easily recover a breaching wingtip than kicking out a stabilizer. If I lay over a turn and breach a stabilizer I'm going down. Thats one of the reasons why I don't like big span stabilizers.
The North marketing jargon is dumb. When you are breaching its because you are laying over turns hard. This "early warning" nonsense is more a reference to overfoiling, which rarely happens to anyone above a novice level.
Getting the stabilizer into clean flow and out of the dirty flow of the front wing might make some sense, but the "early warning" breach doesn't pass muster. Either way kind of feels like they are manufacturing reasons for why they engineered it like this, but there's probably some other (non-performance-oriented) reason for the design decision.
+1 agree in everything you said
Yes probably there is a reason for it, or it was just convenient at the time. same as not doing monoblock mast from the start ;D
if duotone releases a bottom mounted tail in the future remember u read it here first haha
AK Durable Supplies have a reversible fuse which allows you to choose top mount or bottom-mount. AK and KD tails (which are compatible) are designed so they can fit top or bottom ie. reversible.
I've heard the theory of front vs tail waterflow influence - but I tried both ways and it felt no different to me. The early breach tail is nonsense as it's always the frontwing that will leave the water first unless the fuse is set at a really weird angle.
The main benefit with the reversible fuse is that it can accommodate other other brands tails whether they are top or bottom mounted (provided screw holes line up to 30mm or 40mm). And if you have a reversible tail, you can choose to top-mount it to protect it from scratching against reefs, or bottom-mount for easier access to swap out. I ride pre-dominantly in sandy bottom areas so always go for bottom-mount as it's just easier.....
Select to expand quotePeterP said..
AK Durable Supplies have a reversible fuse which allows you to choose top mount or bottom-mount. AK and KD tails (which are compatible) are designed so they can fit top or bottom ie. reversible.
I've heard the theory of front vs tail waterflow influence - but I tried both ways and it felt no different to me. The early breach tail is nonsense as it's always the frontwing that will leave the water first unless the fuse is set at a really weird angle.
The main benefit with the reversible fuse is that it can accommodate other other brands tails whether they are top or bottom mounted (provided screw holes line up to 30mm or 40mm). And if you have a reversible tail, you can choose to top-mount it to protect it from scratching against reefs, or bottom-mount for easier access to swap out. I ride pre-dominantly in sandy bottom areas so always go for bottom-mount as it's just easier.....
I read that if the mast ventilates air makes its way to stab which loses power, board nose dives and front foil loses lift. I suspect that's my problem exasperated by an offset stance which twists board and mast. Adding a negative shim seems to help. I don't turn sharp enough to breach front wing.
Select to expand quotehappysam said..joeballow said..
As someone who is still relatively new I think there's something to be said for the stab breaching first. It gives you warning you are too high and you can recover before breaching the front foil and wiping out. North mentions that as a benefit on top of not having the stab in the path of the front foil, and breaching just the stab is not a big deal at all, doesn't really cause me any wipeouts. You hear the sucking water as much as you feel anything.
In theory if the stab loses lift it should result in you pitching down and recovering right?
I feel like if you are frequently falling from breaching specifically the stab something else about the setup isn't working well.
Just to dont give the wrong impression - I rarely wipe and I have a lot of fun on the foils - BUT - I've noticed some differences when swapping foil systems and want to debunk where it comes from - Which leads to the guess that the tail is breaching because it often happens when I do sharp turns on waves and it really feels like it is the tail - but I might be wrong I have full duotone kit and use the recommended stuff - just wish i ordered the 650 instead =D
Gotcha makes sense, I've never experienced the tail coming out in a hard turns, just in shallow turns when getting too high, as I said still pretty new so getting too high happens. For hard turns I'm always a little lower down and using probably a larger front wing so those tips always breach long before the tail.But yeah if people are calling that overfoiling instead of breaching just getting too high is what I was talking about, not ventilation in a hard turn.
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..happysam said..leepasty said..happysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))
just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)
I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead
The shorter the fuse, the less lift the tail gives for the same size. A shorter fuse may help or a smaller tail and maybe some shimming as Lee does.
Or maybe a slightly longer mast is needed.
Lee, on mast length, are you upgrading to the new dlab slim 2.0 mast? What size will you change the 90 dlab mast for?
I'm on the 90 dlab mast on the UK south coast. I like it as it clears the chop and doesn't breach. The new 94 mast is for racing and big waves and seems too long. It also has a wider chord, so not as good at turning on the wave. The 84 dlab mast sounds great for winging surfing, but will it be too short for the choppy UK south coast?
Select to expand quotejoller said..leepasty said..happysam said..leepasty said..happysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))
just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)
I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead
Lee, are you upgrading to the new dlab slim 2.0 mast? What size will you change the 90 dlab mast for?
I'm on the 90 dlab mast on the UK south coast. I like it as it clears the chop and doesn't breach. The new 94 mast is for racing and big waves and seems too long. It also has a wider chord, so not as good at turning on the wave. The 84 dlab mast sounds great for winging surfing, but will it be too short for the choppy UK south coast?
Like you 84 sounds too short, but whilst I was smacking chop on DLab 90 a friend with similar skills on AFS 82 was doing fine, maybe stiffer mast and smoother Silk foil meant he could ride higher in control. In chop sailor had proto 84 and doing fine (far better winger than me). Mast looked nice and felt way stiffer on beach.
So now I'm thinking 84 will fine, still an expensive gamble.
Select to expand quotepatronus said..joller said..leepasty said..happysam said..leepasty said..happysam said..Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless
The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)
But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse
Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))
just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)
I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead
Lee, are you upgrading to the new dlab slim 2.0 mast? What size will you change the 90 dlab mast for?
I'm on the 90 dlab mast on the UK south coast. I like it as it clears the chop and doesn't breach. The new 94 mast is for racing and big waves and seems too long. It also has a wider chord, so not as good at turning on the wave. The 84 dlab mast sounds great for winging surfing, but will it be too short for the choppy UK south coast?
Like you 84 sounds too short, but whilst I was smacking chop on DLab 90 a friend with similar skills on AFS 82 was doing fine, maybe stiffer mast and smoother Silk foil meant he could ride higher in control. In chop sailor had proto 84 and doing fine (far better winger than me). Mast looked nice and felt way stiffer on beach.
So now I'm thinking 84 will fine, still an expensive gamble.
Yeah, it is an expensive gamble. The Duotone mast is measured from top of board base plate to bottom of fuse connector, which is part way into the fuse. So from top of base plate connector to top of fuse is probably less 1-2 cm.
Great that you saw a winger riding the 84 proto in chop, this is starting to give me a bit more confidence.
